The Fresh Loaf

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Levain Build Amount & Adapting for Various Recipes

nickg's picture
nickg

Levain Build Amount & Adapting for Various Recipes

Hi All –

Couple questions for the knowledgeable here. I am a newb to the whole sourdough situation and wanted to try and wrap my head around a few things before I took the dive (which I am excited to do). 

1. Leavin/Starter Quantity

 – I know this is a topic of discussion around here but am having trouble finding the exact answer. I am currently working out of Ken Forkish's FWSY. I know he says it is possible to half the amount of the flour used when you start feeding the levain by half and only use 50g of active levain, but could I half everything from the very beginning of the build (Day 1)? He starts everything off with 500g of flour and 500g of water, could I reduce that to 250g of each?

– The second part of this question would be that if I am only maintaining half of the levain at all times, does that mean I would only be able to bake one loaf at a time since most of his recipes all call for 100g active levain to make 2 loafs? 

2. Using my starter for other recipes

 – Say I build my starter using the Forkish method, but then I want to bake a bread from Nancy Silverton's Breads from La Brea Bakery–they are different hydration levels–would I be able to adjust my starter quick enough to do that or I would I need to maintain separate starters? 

Thanks for taking the time to read through this–and happy to elaborate or answer any questions you might have about my questions!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

1: by all means reduce the amount to more manageable proportions when making the starter. Just keep the same percentages. You are building a starter! which means you are just cultivating the bacteria and yeasts.

This is the starter from which you can build endless amount of off-shoot starters (levains) at any amount. What you are doing is growing the yeasts and bacteria where the starter will be their home. When it comes to baking you simply take some off and build however much you need. 

2: As above... this isn't an issue. You simply take some starter and build another starter to the different hydration and or flours. 

Welcome. Hope this makes sense. 

nickg's picture
nickg

Appreciate the response. Would a way to think about how a starter is used almost be like the yeast used in a pre-ferment such as a biga or poolish? When I have done those I've been adding a small amount of yeast to a portion of the flour and water to be mixed into the final dough. It almost seems similar to that in the sense that you are you are using the starter as your "yeast" and then mixing that with a bit of the flour and water to be mixed into the final dough. There's a good chance I'm over thinking this. 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

If you use your starter as you have described then you can think of your starter as the yeast and the Pre-Ferment (Levain) as a Biga or Poolish. Although technically they are different because what makes a Biga a Biga and a Poolish a Poolish is that they are preferments done with bakers yeast but the process is the same! 

It's worth noting that many use their starters as a seed and perferment in one. So they'll feed their starter enough to take some off to use in the dough. Sort of one starter fits all kinda thing. Either they bake the same breads everyday and don't need to alter anything. Or they they're using a smaller percentage and aren't particular if it's built exactly to the correct requirements. Or they might have a few different starters. 

There are pros and cons to both and at the end if the day it's whatever suits your needs. Keeping a small amount of starter and taking a little off each time allows you to build many different kinds of preferments all the while maintaining one small amount of starter. Think of the starter as a Petri dish where you store the yeasts and bacteria and the Levain as the beginning of the recipe where you're building a designer starter for the bread you're making. Whichever way makes sense to you. This is how I like to think of it. 

It'll become clearer once it's made and you begin using it as it's all just theory until you do so. 

nickg's picture
nickg

"Think of the starter as a Petri dish where you store the yeasts and bacteria and the Levain as the beginning of the recipe where you're building a designer starter for the bread you're making."

That is helpful – I think that is the idea I was trying to convey in my initial response. And yes, I agree–I think I just need to start making it to fully understand it. Thanks!

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

there is virtually an infinite amount of variation in starter maintenance, and they are (mostly) all valid.  So by all means reduce your amounts as fits your needs.  

Once you get it established and it meets all the criteria for being stable, take a look at Dabrownman's No Muss No Fuss Starter plan.  If you look at the first chart in that post, you'll see that he takes a small quantity of starter and builds it up to the levain amount needed in the recipe in three stages.  Note that in the first 2 stages, he is keeping it at essentially 100% hydration, then in the last stage he reduces the amount of water added to end up with 66% hydration.  This technique can be used effectively to change the hydration to whatever you require for a given recipe.

The rest of the post outlines a really great starter storage method so you're not wasting tons of flour feeding your starter every day/week/whatever.  It's worth the read.

     --Mike

nickg's picture
nickg

Thanks Mike – I will take a look at that article for sure!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

is if I am trying to follow a specific starter and levain build for a reason where it matters.  The Demolder method  of starter and levain builds is very specific about temperatures and hydration levels at each stage of the build in order to promote and push the LAB to produce acetic acid instead of the lactic acid they normally produce.

Forkish is about the most wasteful way to maintain a starter or do a levain build ever invented by any Mad Baker. - Ever!  Abe is right. Just make the amount you need and no more.  Use Lucy's Rule of 15 to know exactly how to do it  If you need 150 g of finished levain at 100% hydration and want to do a 3 stage levain build of 4 hours each just divide 150 by 15,  The answer is 10.

Use 10 g of starter and 10 g each for flour and water for the first build.  4 hours later double the amount of flour and water for the 2nd feeding - add 20 g each for flour and water to the first build.  4 hours later double the flour and water for the 3rd feeding by adding 40 g each of flour and water to 2nd build.  In 4 hours it should have doubled and be at peak performance for any bread you are making that requires 150 g of levain.

After years of making bread, I don't even worry about hydration of the levain for almost all the breads I have made.  150 g of starter at 100% hydration or 150 g of levain at 80% hydration or 120% really doesn't make a bit of difference in my book.  Folks tend to worry about and overthink stuff that is new to them.  Wee beasties are pretty low on the IQ meter and don't know much at all about anything and could care less about how wet they are most always.

Happy baking

nickg's picture
nickg

Appreciate all your insight on this. 
And just to confirm–when going from one feeding to the next you are not discarding anything? Just adding in new flour and water on top of what is there?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

amount of starter to begin with, 10-15 g for most all levain builds, there is no need for discards which I find a needless waste.  If was using 50g of liquid starter and adding 50 each of flour and water for the first build, I would have to toss something by the 3rd build .....or make it in the bathtub to hold it all:-)

I should also note that I am using the NMNF starter that is designed to increase the LAB to yeast ratio and it is stored for up to 24 weeks in the fridge to really bring out the sour.

No Muss No Fuss Starter
DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Thankd DAB. I never saw that before. It sure makes things easy. I had to try out a few scenarios before accepting it. Sorry, it’s a doubting Thomas thing... I don’t understand how it works, but I know it does.

Great Tip!

Dan

nickg's picture
nickg

Hey Everyone –

Again–appreciate all of your comments so far. I had a few more questions pop up that I wanted to sort out before I jump in. 

I recently was given a 100% hydration starter and here's what I have been doing:

I took 50 grams of starter and have been feeding it 100g water and 50g WW flour and 50g AP flour twice a day. (Discarding all but 50g between each feeding)

Here are my questions:

IF I wanted to make an 80% hydration starter for something I plan on baking in a few days can I adjust the amount of flour and water in the jar I am currently using or should I take some out from the 100% and start a new one?

If I am starting with 50g starter at 100% hydration, is it as simple as keeping the ratios I have going, but adjusting to 80%? Meaning I would remove all but 50g of starter and feed 80g water and 100g flour?

Again, if I am keeping it in the same jar, is it as easy as increasing the amount of water to bring it back up to 100% hydration afterwards?

More simply put–if I am using a base starter amount of 50g can I always keep my flour at 100g and adjust the water when I feed it to adjust the hydration? (And proportionally if I need to build more)

Wow – I might have just confused myself even more–but any insight would be great–bearing in mind that I am still new math is certainly not my strong suit!

Thanks!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

...and feed it 80g water + 100g flour then the starter won't be 80% hydration because that 50g you started with was 100% hydration. That also has to be taken into account. 

Best to build a levain which makes things easier. Include the flour and water in the starter when working out the hydration of the levain. 

  • 20g starter (10g water + 10g flour)
  • 70g water
  • 90g flour

Will give you an 80% hydration levain. As an example! 

nickg's picture
nickg

Thank you!

Got it. I actually had that in part of my questions–whether or not I would need to account for what is in the starter already. For some reason I feel like I have read both ideas–some people saying yes, account for it, and others say it's not needed.

So my best bet would be to take a portion of my 100% hydration and feed it separately to get it to 80%? (Possibly feeding without discarding, depending on how much I need)

Alternatively, if I kept the 50g as the base–and wanted to keep a similar ratio to the amount of flour I am currently feeding, would it be what is below to get it to 80%:

50g starter (25g water + 25g flour)
100g flour
75g water

And then my last question would be, how to return to the 100% hydration afterwards? I guess I would just add in another 25g of water at the next feeding after I bake?

I know these are dumb questions–I don't know why I can't wrap my head around this. 

Thanks for your time!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Before you break them. No doubt many people here are not fussed about their starter as long as it's healthy and fed well they will approximate the hydration. And if the starter amount is small then they aren't concerned if it's to the exact hydration and/or the correct flour. But to break the rules and go by feel you should first learn and follow the rules so you know what you can keep or drop. 

I suggest you keep a small amount of 100% hydration starter. This is where you store the yeasts and bacteria. Because it's 100% hydration you always know where you are. From this build off shoot starters to the correct hydration and with the correct flour. No need to wrap your head around anything. It's a good way to work. When the starter runs low then you can build it up again etc. 

nickg's picture
nickg

would much rather know the correct way to do it from the start. 

I think I will take your advice and do an off shoot of my 100% and build it up.
BUT–just curious–was calculation right or wrong?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

50g starter (25g water + 25g flour)
100g flour
75g water

This will be a total of 100g water and 125g flour. To get the hydration one would divide the water by flour and times by 100. 

100/125x100 = 0.8 so yes this is 80% hydration

Then to convert it back you'd add 25g water. 

All correct in paper (or computer screen) but what would you do if you take from that original build some starter to use in your recipe? 

P.s. get used to referring to a starter, or levain build, as starter + water + flour. In that order. This is the standard order and will avoid confusion when reading recipes if things are given in ratios such as 1:2:3

nickg's picture
nickg

I will definitely keep that in mind moving forward and be sure to reference in the correct order. 

Right now I am only looking at recipes from some bread books I have–not ready to start creating my own yet. If I were to use that 80% hydration starter in my recipe (Let's use Forkish FWSY as an example) he uses 100g of "mature active levain" *I think* and then adds additional flour and water to do the final build before mixing the final dough. 

So I think I would take 100g of starter after my previous feeding and apply it to his final levain build–is that right?

BTW–thank you–this convo is helping me out a lot. 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Ask as many questions as you need. Right now it seems daunting but it is when it's just theory. Once you start using your starter then eventually it'll become second nature and no doubt even after so much advice on TFL you'll find your own way what suits you best. 

There are so many ways to get to the final build. But your way of doing the feed above, converting it to an 80% hydration starter, then taking 100g of that to do the levain build in Forkish's recipe works well. Two feeds - nice and strong - and an 80% levain required for the recipe. 

nickg's picture
nickg

So I took the 20g of the 100% hydration starter and fed it the 70g water and 90g flour as you recommended. It looks like it's doing well–rising throughout the day.

My question is: After a few feedings is it "converted" to 80% hydration and would now have to add more water (~2g) to the feeding to account for that because the base starter is now 80% instead of 100%?

Or, do I just keep removing all but 20g between feedings and keep feeding 70g water 90g flour?

Let me know if that does not make sense, and thank you in advance.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

You have taken 20g starter (10g water + 10g flour) and have fed it with 70g water + 90g flour.

That makes a total of 80g water + 100g flour. So your starter is now 80% hydration.

But if you do the very same feed of 70g water + 90g flour with an 80% hydration starter it won't be 80% hydration anymore.

So subsequent feeds should now all be 80% hydration.

Be it... 20g starter + 80g water + 100g flour

Or... 10g starter + 40g water + 50g flour (if you don't need too much).

etc.

nickg's picture
nickg

I knew something wasn't making sense.

So I think I messed this one up because I already did two feedings and I knew that second one didn't seem right. 

If I were to go back and take another 20g from my 100% hydration starter which is in the fridge, can I just take the 20g from that right from the fridge and start over with 80% feeding, or do I need to feed my 100% first, let it become active and then take 20g to start the 80% off-shoot?

Okay–I swear, that will be the last question. You've become my starter professor–thanks!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Unless your refrigerated starter needs to be refreshed (probably not), I woud take 20g from it and the start your builds. That IMO, would be the very best way to insure an active Levain.

nickg's picture
nickg

Before I put it in the fridge I had fed it and let it sit for a few hours. I then stirred it up, covered and put it in the fridge. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

An alternative option would be to stick with your 100% hydration starter. Calculate 20% of the water in your starter, in the case of 80% hydration. Then subtract that amount of water from your total amount of water in the recipe.

I like the way you think. You want to know the best way and are willing to learn the details.

Whenever you convert your starter, as Lechem stated above you need to consider the amount of water and flour in the starter. 

Dan

nickg's picture
nickg

That's a good point–also something I may try out. 

Yeah, I don't know why, but either I just can't wrap my head around this or I am thinking about it too much. Either way, this whole message thread has been really helpful.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The post is long and I don’t see how much Levain you want for the bake. Let me know.

nickg's picture
nickg

says for the final levain build: 

100g mature, active levain | 400g water | 400g white flour | 100g WW flour

Then it says to let that sit for 6-8 hrs and add 360g of that levain build to the final dough. (It's for two loaves of bread)

Not that it really matter, but there is also some commercial yeast incorporated into the recipe.

Not sure if we can just post up recipes from books here or if thats against the rules. But I can always snap a picture of the recipe from the book if that helps. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Ok, the doug hydration is 80%. You want 100g Levain. 100 / 15 = 6.666 (round to 7). Your first build is 7:7:7 (21g) Second build is 21 + 14 + 14 (49g). Third build is 49 + 28 + 28 (105g). Note, it’s a little high because I rounded 6.666 to 7. Let each build at least double. 

Your Levain contains 50g water + 50g flour. Often the recipe will state the Levain hydration. If it doesn’t I go with 100%. But in your case, you’re going with the same hydration as the dough. So, 20% of 50g water is 10g. 400g water - 10g = 390g. 

Mix 390g water + 500 flour + 100g Levain.

Do you see the principle?

NOTE, if you mixed your 100% starter anf followed the recipe without any changes, the dough hydration would be 82%.  With the calculations we made (removing 10g water from the Final Dough the hydration is exactly 80%.  It’s not a great difference, but is is good to know how things work.

HTH

Dan

nickg's picture
nickg

And that would be based on using the 100% hydration starter, not one that has been converted to 80% hydration?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Yes

  1. But the important thing is, do you understand the math

I’m absolutely terrible at math, but I have a fair amount of common sense, if you don’t ask my wife {;-D)

Dan

nickg's picture
nickg

I'm the worst at math. But yes–I understand what you're saying there. Taking that 20% to get down to 80% off the top of the 50g shows you how much to leave out of the final dough.

One thing I may have confused you with though as I read back was that the amount of flour/water/levain was for the last build before it got mixed into the final dough. 

I attached a picture from the unknown source. If this is against the rules I can delete it. 

 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I’m lost Nick. I don’t understand the formula. Especially where it says Baker’s Formula, and then quantity in Levain. I read 200g flour in Levain, not 100.

????

Dan

nickg's picture
nickg

So. I think that it is saying you take 100g of mature, active levain and mix it with 500g flour and 400g water as the final levain build/feeding–then let it rest for about 6hrs.

After that, you take 360g from that previous build and incorporate it into the final dough mix.

You're right, it is saying there are 200g of flour in the final levain–that is based off of that 360g.

This is based off of the 80% hydration starter. But honestly, it's all good. I feel like if I make my off-shoot 80% hydration starter and feed it–as long as there is 100g in the container–I can do this.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

But the levain build gives you 1000g. Madness! 

The weight you want, divided by the old weight then multiplying all the ingredients by that number gives you your sane new levain build. 

360/1000 = 0.360

 

  • 100g mature starter x 0.360 = 36g starter
  • 400g white flour x 0.360 = 144g white flour
  • 100g whole wheat flour x 0.360 = 36g whole wheat flour
  • 400g water x 0.360 = 144g water

There is your new levain build. A total of 360g

36g starter at 80% hydration is 16g water and 20g flour. Now you simply introduce a starter build before going onto the Levain build. Any build will do as long as it is a good feed, you end up with the right amount of flour and water and it's left to mature. For example...

  • 8g starter (4g water + 4g flour)
  • 12g water
  • 16g flour 

Gives you 36g mature starter at 80% hydration. Then go onto the main levain build. 

 

nickg's picture
nickg

That makes sense. So I am still using the original formula you mentioned earlier to convert:

20g starter (100%) and adding 70g water and 90g flour. Then from there I suppose I can take 36g to do the new (sane) levain build.

Also, what is the formula to figure out the amount of flour/water in your starter. How did you break out the 16g water and 20g flour from the 36g starter. I know dividing 16/20*100 will let you know it's 80%, but would like to know how you broke it down from 36g. 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Think of your starter as a petri dish. Just a place where you store the yeasts and bacteria. Keep a small amount and store it in the fridge. To replenish you feed it. The levain is prefermenting part of the recipe using your starter. It's an off shoot "designer" starter if you will. 

If you're only using a small amount of 100% hydration starter in the levain build it probably isn't enough to be concerned about. The final hydration of the levain will hardly be altered. Many won't bother over thinking it down to the 1g here or there. If it's a significant amount then you'd start to think about it. 

The first formula was easy. Second formula in this case was easy too... 8g water + 10g flour = 80% hydration. It's also half of 36g so I doubled everything = 16g water + 20g flour. 

There is a formula but as I've said it's not as easy as the first one I gave. When it doesn't look obvious I simply take the amount of starter needed and split it into two as your starter is 100% hydration = equal amounts of flour and water. I then make two columns with flour on one side and water on the other. If the hydration is going down then I'd simply add flour and take away from the water whatever I've added onto the flour (to keep it the correct weight) until I get to 80% hydration or near enough. 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Which recipe is this? 

nickg's picture
nickg

Ken Forkish 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

?

nickg's picture
nickg

Pain De Campagne from FWSY

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

So some tips...

Watch the dough and not the clock. Forkish is very generous with the fermenting times. Many over ferment the dough watching the clock. Once the dough is billowy and has clear signs of air bubbles then the bulk ferment is done. It should be aerated and feel silky smooth to the touch. Better slightly under than over. 

Make sure the gluten is developed well. If you think it needs some extra folds then give it some. The dough should have elasticity and extensibility. When doing the stretch and folds don't go beyond its extensibility. Don't tear the gluten. When you feel it resisting then stop. 

When shaping knock the larger gas bubbles out but keep the small ones. Don't de-gas completely. 

nickg's picture
nickg

Thanks! And thank you for all your help. Hopefully this works out–I guess we'll see!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Best of luck. My pleasure. 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Was looking for inspiration for this weekends bake and decided on the levain de campagne. I used whole rye flour instead of whole wheat and missed out the added yeast. It's now cooling so crumb shot later. Hope your bake is going well.

 

nickg's picture
nickg

About to post up my pics too!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Pretty loaf, Abe!

Isn’t it great that we can bake breads that are healthy, nutritious, have get chew and crunch, and taste so darn good? To me, baking bread is healthy for my soul. It’s so “earthy”.

How nice is it, to be able to hand our best breads to a neighbor or friend?

Dan

QUESTION - what percentage of rye did you use and how did it cause the dough to differ in handling from the WW?

I’m beginning to think that the flavor of whole rye is in and of itself sour tasting. I originally thought it made for a more sour starter (PH wise) and I still think that is true. But it seems to me that whole rye grain has a sour (tangy) flavor profile. I’m interested to know the thoughts of others.

 

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Nothing like home made bread. Very satisfying. 

In the recipe above I simply swapped the whole-wheat for rye. In both levain build and final dough. I also used my 100% hydration rye starter for the levain build. 

In the recipe Forkish explains that although he uses whole wheat the French tend to use whole rye for a levain de campagne. And I like adding whole rye. 

Handled very well. Got lots of flavour. 

syros's picture
syros

Wow, I need to print out this post and stick it to my forehead! Abe a lot of what I asked you previously I think has been very patiently answered by you and by DanAyo. My math skills are zilch and I continually struggle to do the math and percentages but some of this might have actually sunk in! 

I agree about keeping the starter at 100% especially in the beginning because it is simply too hard to figure out. And I love what DAB said about not really caring one way or the other unless it’s for a specific reason. I might keep a starter at a lower hydration for the fridge, but on the counter, I lean towards 100% hydration. My brain can’t keep the formulas and math straight so I go with the easiest method. 

Thank you! And nickg - you have asked all the questions I wanted to ask but was afraid to ask! So thank you. It will come. And yes Forkish uses way too much starter, levain - too much waste in my opinion! It’s hard enough to learn with a small amount - as a newbie my advice is to keep it simple and small quantities. 

nickg's picture
nickg

And Abe & Dan have been super awesome about answering my crazy questions–and it's good to know I'm not the only one wondering about that kind of stuff too.

syros's picture
syros

how many of us need guidance. It’s always best to ask and some kind souls are very gracious and patient with us neophytes! Nice bread!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

And more! I asked Dabrownman and Mini Oven (amongst others) when I first started. Believe you me I asked! 

nickg's picture
nickg

Well – Here it is. 

I stupidly ran out of AP flour so had to sub in 150g of bread flour to make up the difference in this recipe–not sure how much of an impact that made or not. I think it looks pretty nice on the outside (aside from my horrible shaping skills) and was looking for a little more of an open crumb. But the flavor is pretty nice–moist and chewy with a good tang.

 

 

Let me know your thoughts–and thanks again everyone!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Damn, that looks amazing. Very nice inside and out. You should be very pleased with that! 

I used bread flour 13.6% protein, whole rye flour and no yeast. Here is the crumb just so you can compare and contrast. The crumb is soft with a pronounced tang. 

nickg's picture
nickg

Not my first loaf ever-first attempt of a sourdough bread though. 

I have done other loads with commercial yeast. 

Yours looks great too!