Using mixer makes dough "runny" even w/ stretch and folds. why is that?
I've been making SD via the Tartine method for 4-5 months. I recently got a fancy Ankarsrum mixer for my non SD baking. I've been doing some experiments with running my SD dough in the mixer for 5-7 minutes before the 3-4 hours of stretch and folds, and I've found the mixed dough to be much more "runny". Not like quite pancake batter, but it has a much harder time holding it's form. It also seems much wetter to me, even though the amt of water isn't changing. I have to use much more flour when shaping the loaves with the "mixer" batches. Also, when it comes out of the banneton the "mixer" batches are far more liquid, and pool out much faster. Even after an overnight proof in the fridge.
When doing the stretch and folds, the mixer batches stiffen up a bit, but when coming back 30 min later they are back to runny form, whereas the normal S&F batches seem to hold their shape better/long as the S&Fs continue.
But it does look like the oven spring is a bit better with the "mixer" batches, but I'm not confident enough baker to know if that is related.
So, what is the mixer doing to the dough?
The details :
I've made both batches identically with only the addition of some mixer time (Ankarsrum roller & scraper).
100gm starter (100% hydration) into 350gm warm water
Mix in 450gm bread flour (KA) 50gm Whole Wheat (KA)
Mix to a shaggy ball. Autolyse 40 min
Add 10gm salt & 25gm water
Combine OR mix in mixer for 5-7min.
Start Stretch & Folds every 30 min for 3-4hours.
Pre-shape & bench rest 30 min.
Shape and into Banneton. Into fridge overnight (~14-18 hours)
Both version taste great though….
Thanks in advance for any wisdom imparted,
That the mixing friction heat is speeding up fermentation. Shorten times or lower the temperature of the dough.
I am learning to use an Ankarsrum Assistent but can't say that I've notice the problem you describe. If anything my batches tend to feel a little drier than usual.
Working in the 65 to 75% hydration realm I begin the process by adding water and levain to the bowl, then install the scraper and the rotary drum attachment. I leave the tension loose so the drum wheel is touching the rim of the bowl, start on slow, let the levain mix with the water,then progressively add dry ingredients. As the mass starts to climb to the top of the drum I stop, then adjust the drum away from the bowl about half an inch at a time as I add dry ingredients and the dough climbs again. Once everything is incorporated I remove the drum and scraper, put the lid on the bowl and autolyse for 20 minutes or so.
From there I attach the scraper again and the dough hook, start the machine and pay attention to the kneading process. I may leave the scraper in or remove it. I may move the hook from one position to the other, and I may force the dough off the top of the hook from time to time. Every batch is a little different. Depending on how the kneading takes place I may run from 2 to 5 minutes, adjusting the speed to get the best results.
Are you using this technique? I'd like to know how you are managing you mix.
Jim
@Mini Oven & @DS99303 That's interesting. So you think I'm adding extra heat? And that is in effect over proofing it? or at least "extra-proofing" it vs the hand method? I'm a bit skeptical..... but I'm not an expert, so I'll try a batch with cold water and see if that helps.
Thanks for your responses!
@jimbtv : I put the water in the mixer. Add the starter. Sometimes I just use my hands to break up the starter, sometimes I run the mixer for a min or so (roller & scraper). Add the flours. Run the mixer until "Shaggy ball"... until it looks combined. Maybe a min or so. Remove parts of mixer, cover and autolyse for 30 min. Put parts back in, and start mixing. After about a min add salt & water mixture. At this point everything is fairly slick, so I hold the roller by hand, and apply pressure to the dough as it comes around. This gets it combined quicker for me. Then set the roller about an inch off the bowl. Far enough away that the dough isn't walking up to the top of the roller, but close enough that it's getting a good "squish" to the dough. then run for 5-6 min at maybe 2-3 o'clock speed. Then transfer to a bowl for F&Ss for a few hours. I don't like the mixer's bowl for F&Ss... the curve of a bowl works much better for me.
Am I missing something? I count the water at 94.44%. 50g from the starter, 350g water and 25g from salt solution, against 500g of flour. Is that a typo? Do you mean 250g? That would give you ~65% hydration.
gary
I'm not sure about the time for the first water / flour mix time. But I'm doing a batch tomorrow. I'll time it. Seems quick to me, but maybe that's because change is happening quickly... unlike almost everything else related to making SD :)
I get 77% for a bakers %. So I think it's 500gm solids, 375 water, which give you 75%. If you add in the starter, 1/2 water, 1/2 flours so 50gm each, it's 550gm solids and 425gm water, which moves it to 77%. Or do you treat starter a different way? I also don't include the salt, does that count?
I did forget to count the starter's flour. In my defense, I argue the 100% hydration starter absorbs no additional moisture and actually gives up moisture to the newly added flour. A preferment buffers the hydration. A high hydration raises the effective dough hydration, in spite of the calculated value. Note: This is my observation and has no more worth than any other anecdotal or epistemological evidence.
Still, I do set a lower hydration target value when using a poolish or 100% SD starter.
gary
I've made another loaf and started with cold water (not chilled, just out of the tap cold). It helped. I also paid more attention to the time in the mixer. I think I was mixing too long. It I just keep it to 5 min it seems to do better.
But now I have another question : After mixing, it seems to be in the same stretchy state after 3-4 hours of S&Fs by hand. Do I need to do the S&Fs after mixing? I sort of feel like they aren't adding anything. Can I just let it rest for a bulk rise?
Thanks,
-Jon
a yeasted dough (all things being equal) will loose its shape during fermentation. Unlike a yeasted dough of the same hydration, a sourdough will need more occasional folding as the gluten relaxes. The higher the hydration, the more stretching and folding is needed.
I would suggest if you want to reduce folding, reduce the hydration. The dough will get "wetter" with time. Start out with a slightly stiffer dough than the one you finally want to shape. It will get softer with time.
I think that's what I'm seeing. After mixing, the dough seems very very "relaxed" and S&Fs don't have much more than a momentary effect on the level of "relax".
Here is the result of my mix-only (no S&Fs during 3 hour bulk rise). Seems on par with my usual loafs. Haven't cut into it yet....
https://goo.gl/photos/M1davkAXHvkyYHwm6
with stretch and folds, dough on a flat surface bulking under a bowl... "If it rises more out than up, do a fold."
If you follow this guidance, you will notice many things about the sourdough dough. One major difference is the intervals between folding sessions as the dough ferments. Fermenting increases as bacteria and yeast build population so you will find intervals between S&F's shortening as the dough "relaxes" faster. If you watch it long enough (going past the point where the dough should be shaped, risen and baked) the dough will over.fermented and there will be no intervals between S&F's and dough running sideways, spent and gluten too weak to hold any shape.
Depending on my dough I tend to ignore the first few hours of a bulk rise because the dough just sits there. I could add folds early on but they are not as important as the folds added later on as the dough looses its shape. So if I was limited with the number of folds and handling of the dough, do it later in the bulking section of the total fermentation.
This statement: "After mixing, the dough seems very very "relaxed" and S&Fs don't have much more than a momentary effect on the level of "relax." Makes me think the dough is too wet from the get go. Granted, autolyse following mixing, letting the dough hydrate is very important. After the starch in the flour has absorbed water and gluten starts to bond together, the dough will be easier to manage and work with unless the amount of water exceeds the limits of that particular flour.