The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Things I haven't figured out

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

Things I haven't figured out

A Christmas gift (Tartine) from my husband launched me on this bread quest. Since then, I've consumed a lot of books recommended on this site. (This is the nicest community of people on the internet -- yes, the internet can be kind!)  I'm about 20 loaves in and it's safe to say that my theoretical knowledge far surpasses my experience. Here are the things I have yet to figure out. Maybe the community has some ideas for me.

1. How to effectively shape rye and high hydration doughs without a solid-surface countertop. I have a pastry mat (which I'm afraid of damaging with the corners of my dough blade). Large butcher blocks are pricey. I'm fairly capable with the dough blade, but I'm pretty hindered by the lack of surface.

2. When bulk fermentation is complete. I know, it's got to be "pillowy" "webby" and yes, I can feel the difference of a developed dough compared to just after it has been mixed. But some breads are supposed to "triple in size" other "double in size". When is this different? I thought perhaps the enrichment-level makes a difference, but I haven't found that pattern in recipe instructions.  I understand the concepts of time, temperature and yeast quantity, but I still find myself unsure in the moment. I wish there was a test like the finger-poke-test after proofing that will help me know when bulk fermentation is complete.

3. Salt. I know the ceiling for rustic breads is about 2.3%. But when we taste this bread, it seems under-salted. (Let's assume I haven't overproofed and destroyed the sugars and thus other flavor components.) We almost never eat processed foods, so I don't think our palettes are "deadened" by cheeseburgers. I usually up the salt content to about 3%. I suppose this hinders the yeast a bit and probably slows down fermentation, which I can compensate for (provided I can figure out #2), but I wonder if there are other consequences.

4. Whether or not to  knead rustic doughs after autolyse. I understand the use of folding, but why not also knead in the beginning? Considering it's not likely that I will over-oxidize my dough by hand or in my Kitchen Aid, is there harm in kneading? So many recipes omit it. I find the folks who omit it are the more recent crop of bakers (Tartine, FWSY).  I'm looking for a little insurance. Is there harm in doing it (again provided you don't overwork the dough)?

I'm especially interested in #2. I know there are things that are indicators both in the moment and after the bake. Easy ones are the pale exterior of an over-proofed loaf, but I'm hungry for more information. Particularly regarding the crumb.

Thanks to this generous community in advance.

Ford's picture
Ford

!. A large (about 24" square} cutting board works for me.  I do not use a mat.

2. The finger poke test is as good as any.

3. Use more salt, if you want to, the rising will slow.  Don't worry about adding more yeast.

4. Kneading by hand will not hurt.  You can over knead with a machine -- It may overheat the dough.

Go for it!!  If it works for you, it is right!!!!!

Ford

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

Thanks for your response.

 

Are you suggesting the poke test for bulk fermentation?  I've only used it for proofing.

Arjon's picture
Arjon

depends on various combinations of factors. I suspect that like quite a few beginners, you'd like a "one size fits all" answer that applies across any type of loaf. If so, stop hoping; in practice, it doesn't exist. 

As a basic example, a straightforward all-AP loaf and an all-whole wheat one in which everything else is the same are fairly different in terms of how they look and feel when they're fully bulk fermented. And in between those, there's the whole range across blends with different proportions of them. 

I also wonder if, like many a newbie, myself included, you're trying to make loaves in which multiple variables differ each time you bake. For me, this made it harder to learn how each individual variable was affecting my doughs and my finished loaves. My rate of learning improved considerably when I took a step back by varying one thing at a time. 

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

The world is so large for a newbie that indeed, it's very tempting to change things all around rather than take a more systematic approach.  I'm falling somewhere in between. What I'm doing now is picking a style and making all the recipes. So, right now, I'm on ciabatta.  (I decided to give the sourdough stuff a rest.)  I've made Rose Levy Beranbaum's ciabatta and Hammelman's. The latter was significantly better.  In fact, it might be my favorite loaf so far (which is weird considering I'm such a sourdough lover and from the SF Bay Area.)  I'll try Reinhart next.

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

1. I have the same problem, and solved it with a kneading board, link below.  I got mine at a lower price at a restaurant supply store.  To keep it from slipping I got a safety mat.  When you press down on the board with the mat underneath, it doesn't slip.

http://breadtopia.com/store/wood-bread-board/


https://www.amazon.com/San-Jamar-CBM1016-Saf-T-Grip-Board-Mate/dp/B005IMGVQC/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1491245301&sr=1-1&keywords=san+jamar+...

2.  Really must be learned through experience.  One of the hardest things to get right at first.  Conceptually, you want to be somewhat sub-fully proofed.  Fully proofed puts you in the realm of all the food being consumed.  Once that happens, things start to break down.  With Tartine you're already dealing with very warm and wet dough, so even if properly proofed it takes an experienced hand to handle such dough.  There's no reason you can't reduce the hydration until your handling skills catch up.  I love Tartine, but Hamelman is much easier to execute, and his recipes are much to my liking.

3.  Experiment.  It's all an experiment anyway.

4.  Autolyse is not meant to replace kneading.  A good process is autolyse 30 mins.-3 hours, add levain, salt, remaining 50g water, squeeze-knead or whatever it's called, to incorporate salt and levain, fold and ferment.  Or do in Kitchen Aid mixer (what I usually do), and mix, e.g., on speed 1 for 3 minutes and speed 2 for 4 minutes (Hamelman).

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

My issue on the bulk fermentation isn't really a handling issue. I'm fairly good at handling the high hydration doughs. It's really just a matter of the surface.  (Thanks for your suggestion on that). I just want to know how far I can push the fermentation and the cues for that. I'm distinguishing here between fermentation and proofing.  Although I will say that I've sometimes gotten confused by the signals being sent to me by a high hydration dough.  For example, I have been confused at times whether or not I fermented too long and thus broke down all the gluten through acidity, or if the warm/wet dough was just being its usual difficult self.  (Well, when I baked it up and got no color, then I got my answer. But it was too late by then. Hence my need for in-the-moment cues.)

Amen to the Tartine/Hammelman comment. Tartine is not a good one to start with. My Tartine loaves didn't start coming out well until I read Forkish. Then I was able to troubelshoot Tartine.

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

I get you.  I'm a lot better at handling than I was--especially since I took up rye--but I find the Tartine method pretty tortured.  I love them, but I get such good results with Hamelman, while adjusting up his hydration levels and fermentation time, especially since I omit the commercial yeast.  Using young levain turns baking into an all day experience, unless you cold bulk ferment overnight (which Tartine does, but at wine fridge temps).

Porridge recipes in Tartine III gave me dough that wouldn't stay together.  I'd had plenty of success baking with significant amounts of soaker ingredients in Hamelman recipes, so what's the deal?  Nonetheless, I love that book.  It's just that I don't see the need to ferment at 82F, and with hydration I tend to go by feel now instead of committing to a number.

I just got Forkish, so perhaps it will be a revelation.

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

I really enjoyed Forkish. But it was my first book after Tartine (second overall).  I wonder if you will be underwhelmed as it does not go into as much detail. The one thing that irks me about Hammelman is that his "home" recipe scales aren't listed in metric.  (Don't tell my European husband I said that since I will insist until the day I die that the imperial system is better.  It's not.  Of course it's not. But I just like to drive him crazy.)  Still love his book and have his ciabatta "bulk fermenting" (oh dear) right now.

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

I convert those measures into grams and pencil them in.  The dual professional/home aspect to this book is one of my favorite things about it.  Helps me maintain the fantasy of baking 20 loaves at once.

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

I just took a look at some of your gorgeous blog entries and you've inspired me to bake through the Hamelman book.  That's some great stuff.  Since you are also from the Bay Area, have you found any good locally milled flours?  (When you're not milling your own?)

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

You are too kind.  I'm in Alameda, so we have a good number of bulk places, but even so, surprisingly limited ingredients compared to what I see here.  Where are you?  My flour chronicles are as follows, in date order:

1. KA AP, Bread, WW flours, all good.
2. One Degree Organic sprouted spelt, very good.
3. Bob's WW, very good.
4. Pilgrimage to Central Milling/Keith Giusto in Petaluma: 50 lb bag of Artisan Baker's Craft, malted (AP) and 85 extraction wheat, malted (per Tartine III), and medium rye (couldn't find at any bulk store).  The rye was fine, and the other flours were surprisingly bland.  This was disillusioning since everyone says this is the best.  Is it me?
5.  Milling my own flour is really neat, and you get the germ, which is not present in commercially sold flour, because it spoils quickly.  I understand from Dabrownman that if you finely grind wheat, then sift, you get 85 extraction, which Tartine says is roughly like making a 50-50 WW/AP mix.

Conclusion: not sure what to do with all my Keith Giusto 85 extraction flour.  I will continue to mill my flour and supplement with the Artisan Baker's Craft, and once that runs out, with KA, One Degree, or Bob's AP.

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

I'm in Benicia, well, just down the freeway.  As I'm not able to fully throw myself into this hobby, I'm sticking with mostly KA for now. Best quality that I can manage with the least amount of fuss.  But if the clouds ever part, I should definitely try the Petaluma roadtrip. It's not far.

We have a great little health food store in Concord called Harvest House. They sell 00 flour locally milled in SF.  It seemed to be great quality, but I don't have much to compare it to on the 00 side.  I should get back to pizza making. I actually have much more experience in that area (hence the 00).  Maybe I should post on that since I'm sucking up so much info on the site and not contributing much. Next time I have a decent pizza pic to share...

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Benicia, got it. I'm not going so far as to recommend or not that mill. Everyone raves about it and my household unanimously found the breads less appealing than those made with any of the others--quite a surprising result. 

You're in stage [__] of a multi-stage obsession that includes buying your own mill. It's confusing because you just propogated something truly remarkable that you must tend daily but which isn't bread.  

AlanG's picture
AlanG

Just divide the metric measurements by 10 and you will get the right scale for home recipes.

HansB's picture
HansB

Thanks.

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

The absolute best and easiest approach that I've come across is from Mini Oven here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15736/mini039s-favorite-rye-ratio

There is no "solid surface" really required, and the result is amazing.

With regards to working on the baking mat - well, I have a couple of cheap plastic bench scrapers that work wonderfully for shaping and can't damage the mat.  I use a cutting board as my surface if I need to be using the metal bench knife for dividing.

I'm no help with the fermentation thing - I haven't got it quite figured out yet, but using clear, straight-sided containers and the poke test (even on ferment) has mostly worked for me so far.

Have fun!

Norcalbaker's picture
Norcalbaker

flour supplier 

Norcalbaker's picture
Norcalbaker

one of the best flour suppliers in the nation!

Keith Giusto Bakery in Petaluma Ca.  

They are a partner of Central Milling.  Center Milling supplies the flours for Tartine, Acme Bread, and Josey Baker.  

Keith and his nephew, Nicky, are accomplished bakers and they know flours. Nicky was the captain of the American Team for the Coupe du Monde (the Olympics of bread competition).  Keith's sister is the Pamela of Pamela's Gluten Free Products.  The Giusto family used to own Giusto flours out of San Francisco.  But the family sold it some years ago.  The Giusto's are four generations of millers and bakers.

I stock my pantry with Organic Central Milling flours: AP Beehive; Unbleached Pastry, High Mountain High Gluten, Artisan Baker's Craft, Artisan Baker's Craft Plus.

They have a non-organic line, but I've never used them.  So I can't comment on them.

They repack Central Milling Flours into 5 lb bags for the home baker.  But you can by 50 lb sacks if you want. 

They are only open Mon-Fri, so that can be a challenge.  They do online sales.  

 Flour really makes a difference. Over the Christmas holiday I was making biscotti by the hundreds. I ran out of the Artisan Bakers Craft Plus so used King Arthur flour. King Arthur is a good flour but the difference in quality of the biscotti texture was quite noticeable between the two flours.  Where the KAF biscotto looked smoother and more uniform, the Central Milling gave me that open rustic crumb that is so coveted in biscotti di Prato.

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

Once I hone my craft I will absolutely give them a try. No sense wasting great flour on my bakes just yet. I knew this area had to boast something respectable. Thanks.