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Sourdough/Yeast Hybrid doughnuts

Toptier_Dough's picture
Toptier_Dough

Sourdough/Yeast Hybrid doughnuts

Hey guys!

Ive been making a whole range of different doughnuts in the kitchen over the past few weeks i.e cake, yeast raised and brioche style doughnuts. But theres one last doughnut mission I have to conquer before i can put away the fryer for a while. The last on my to do list is a sourdough/yeast hybrid doughnut, is there anyone with any knowledge on how i would go about making this dream a reality?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

For flavour. Yeast for rising. So make the dough as normal just replacing a percentage of flour and water with starter but the rising will come from the quicker and stronger yeast. Like using up discard.

Or you can make a larger % of levain with just a touch of yeast, as an added boost, so it's more hybrid like and rising will come from levain. 

Or leave out the yeast altogether. 

Toptier_Dough's picture
Toptier_Dough

so with a recipe of 

  • 500g strong white bread flour
  • 60g caster sugar
  • 10g fine sea salt
  • 15g fresh yeast, crumbled
  • 4 eggs
  • Zest of ½ lemon
  • 150g water
  • 125g softened unsalted butter

How would that be covered to a hybrid dough?

thanks for the help, much appreciated 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

But to make it simple I'd probably go for prefermenting 150g flour with 150g water as a Levain. Build a Levain how you wish just making sure you end up with that ratio of flour to water and it's mature. 

That's all the added water taken care of! 

Then make up the dough with the rest of the ingredients and half the fresh yeast (gotta say at this point it's an educated guess as I'm usually a pure sourdough guy and have rarely done a hybrid). 

Then follow the rest of the recipe method watching the dough and not the clock!

Many others on here would probably be able to give you a more accurate answer. But I believe there is no one true way. That's what I would do then go by feel. You'll get doughnuts out of it but the exact the outcome I cannot say. Try, see then tweak as necessary  :) 

Toptier_Dough's picture
Toptier_Dough

So if I make a starter of 400 grams flour to 400 grams of water an then when it comes to make doughnuts i use 300 grams of the starter that would be the correct use?

Also do you think I have to change the amount of flour I use in the doughnuts recipe?

cheers for the help 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

But why build 800g starter when you can make a levain and build the exact amount? You only need 300g starter at 100% hydration.

Why not take some of your starter and feed it enough to build exactly 300g to go into your recipe?

You can, for example (if you have enough starter with some spare to keep going), take 100g starter and feed that 100g water + 100g flour. Allow to mature and use.

If you don't keep enough starter to spare 100g then do two builds. For example...

Build 1: 20g starter + 40g water + 4g flour. When mature go onto build two...

Build 2: 100g starter + 100g water + 100g flour. When mature then go onto the final dough.

 

If you wish to build 800g anyway and use the remainder in another recipe then fine. It's all about managing your starter and not building in excess only to find that eventually you need to discard. But technically, the way you described is fine.

I don't think you'll have to change much, if anything. You've used the 150g water in your starter. You've also used 150g of the flour within your starter. Just add the remainder flour and other ingredients - remembering to use 1/2 the yeast, and form the dough. You can always keep some extra flour to one side and add a little at a time if you think it needs it. There's always a certain amount of going by feel anyway. If you find you're adding a lot of flour then some salt would need to be added so make a note of how much extra and add salt in proportion. But I really think the dough will not alter that much.

Your recipe rearranged:

 

Starter : Build the night before and use when mature

  • 300g mature starter @ 100% hydration (150g water + 150g flour)

 

Main Dough :

  • 350g strong white bread flour
  • 60g caster sugar
  • 10g fine sea salt (?)
  • 15g 7.5g fresh yeast, crumbled
  • 4 eggs
  • Zest of ½ lemon
  • 125g softened unsalted butter
  • 300g mature starter

The only question now is does the salt stay the same? I'm inclined to think one would reduce the salt to 2% of the flour which is now 350g, which would be 7g.

How about we go for the mean between 7 and 10 to make it 8.5g? Or take a chance and just go for 7g.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Edited

Toptier_Dough's picture
Toptier_Dough

sorry I'm just new to the sourdough world 

So i can make a overnight starter? then use that in the mornings dough making?

All this help is great, thanks 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

You're attempting something which is no mean feat. Converting a recipe from a yeasted to a sourdough/hybrid.

That is fine. Build your starter the night before and use 300g in your doughnut dough.

Remember that timings will now be different. You'll have to go by feel once the dough is made. If it says that it should double in the ferment then be prepared for it too take longer (possibly!), just watch the dough and not the timings in the recipe.

Best of luck.

Let me know the outcome.

Toptier_Dough's picture
Toptier_Dough

Man on a doughnut mission you could say haha 

Any advice on what my starter should smell and look like after a overnight ferment?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

How old is your starter, how often have you used it and what kind of results have you had?

Toptier_Dough's picture
Toptier_Dough

misunderstanding, I actually haven't made the starter yet

what would your tips be for a 100% hydration starter? i.e time for maturity, smells and look of starter 

regards 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

I misunderstood. Thought you had a starter already. To make one you'll need at least a week or two before you can bake with it.

Read up about sourdough and how to make a starter. It's a whole different ball game.

For a second option you could go down the poolish route.

Toptier_Dough's picture
Toptier_Dough

The poolish route? do go on 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

you keep it going and don't have to make a new one each time but the first time will take a while. So look into that and see what you think.

For the poolish route you simply pre-ferment some of the flour and water with yeast overnight. Like I described with the sourdough starter but it will be with yeast. Then you make up the final dough with a bit more yeast (not essential) and the rest as normal. So not that different but it's all done with yeast.

So to make the poolish for your doughnuts do the following...

Poolish: 150g water + 150g flour + 1g fresh yeast. Leave for 12+ hours. The mix should bubble and just begin to fall.

In the final dough add the rest of the ingredients and carry on as normal. There is no need to add anymore yeast but very often a extra pinch of yeast is added to the final dough for an added boost.

Again, you now watch the dough and not the clock.

P.s. salt won't change in this case.

Toptier_Dough's picture
Toptier_Dough
  • 350g strong white bread flour
  • 60g caster sugar
  • 10g fine sea salt (?)
  • 15g 7.5g fresh yeast, crumbled
  • 4 eggs
  • Zest of ½ lemon
  • 125g softened unsalted butter
  • 300g mature starter

so that would still be the dough recipe? just with a poolish instead of mature starter 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Poolish : Night before 12+ hours

  • 150g flour
  • 150g water
  • 1g fresh yeast

 

Main Dough:

  • 350g strong white bread flour
  • 60g caster sugar
  • 10g fine sea salt
  • A pinch of yeast, crumbled
  • 4 eggs
  • Zest of ½ lemon
  • 125g softened unsalted butter
  • All of Poolish
Toptier_Dough's picture
Toptier_Dough

so the salt doesn't change for this one?

so much to learn in the world of sourdough, your help is much appreciated 

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

I don't think the salt would change.

Important to always watch the dough! You should find it will be tastier and have a better crumb. A pre-ferment, like a poolish, was a way to bring out the best in bread (or bread like food) with using yeast instead of a sourdough starter. Tricks of the trade using yeast.

Toptier_Dough's picture
Toptier_Dough

its a world I want to be apart of haha 

I'll make sure to let you know how everything goes 

again your help is much appreciated 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Looking forward!

Toptier_Dough's picture
Toptier_Dough

hey mate how you been? 

just having problems with my starter an wondering if you could help. 

Am I meant to feed the sourdough starter each day and take out some of the starter? Or just feed it and stir 

Regards 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

I'm good thank you. Hope you're doing well.

When you say problems what do you mean? Can you elaborate.

How you use your starter all depends on how often you bake and how you wish to maintain it without becoming slave to it. You can feed it, allow it to mature and use. This is good for someone who bakes everyday. The starter can be kept at room temperature.

If you are an occasional baker this won't be the best idea. Better to keep it in the fridge, take a little off to build a levain (a starter off-shoot) and use that in your recipe. When your starter in the fridge runs low then top it up, allow it to bubble up by half (this way it has plenty of reserves to go for longer between feeds) and then return it to the fridge.

This way you will never be building up too much starter and have little or no discard. Your starter works for you and not the other way round. You can build a levain to different requirements and keep your "mother" starter at one hydration and with a particular flour you prefer.

You might wish to build a levain with two feeds for more strength depending on how long it has been since the initial mother starter feed and how it's behaving.

Toptier_Dough's picture
Toptier_Dough

hey mate thanks for your reply 

 

i think you may have misunderstood 

 

i created a traditional starter 400g strong bread flour 400g 

removing 400g of the starter and re feeding 200gs of water and 200g of flour daily

 

At day 4 it turned into a hot mess and wasn't sticking together anymore and didn't seem right.

 

( this could be due to inconsistent feeding times and the weather was getting hot around 35 degrees) 

 

I created the poolish starter exactly how you instructed me and created my usual donut recipe.

 

when it came time to add 300 g of the poolish starter to my donut recipe it fell short about 30g of poolish starter (so I added 15 g of flour and 15g of water to make up the loss) 

 

i then Added 5g of yeast as a booster into the donut mix.

 

The rise time of the first proof Of the dough took about double the amount as Normal. ( 6 hours instead of 3) 

 

our dough is then refrigerated for 14 hours usually as a second proof (it's a brioche style Dough) (rise took a lot longer in the fridge as well ) 

Then the final proof which usually takes 2-4 hours but with my busy schedule It was around 1am so I couldn't stay up any later and went to bed.

 

 

Just s few questions in regards to all of this

 

What do u think caused these issues with my traditional starter?

 

maybe the issue with the first attempt with the poolish hybrid was just a lack of yeast ? 

 

 

in your personal opion would a traditional starter or poolish starter create a better tasting and preforming donut? 

 

 

Apologies about the lengthy reply just so many things to learn here

 

cheers

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Are you doing this recipe with a sourdough starter or a poolish?

Have you have an established sourdough starter or did you make one from scratch?

If so, when you say you proceeded on day 4 with the recipe then I think it would be too early and that all the rising was done by the added yeast and not the sourdough starter.

That's an awful lot of starter you're discarding and feeding everyday.

ahh yes I remember now. You didn't have a sourdough starter and you're making one from scratch. 4 days really is a young starter and I think you need a slightly different approach to what you're doing.

Here is a very good video for visual purposes. Don't worry about the exact flours. Just do a mix of bread flour and whole-wheat. Get yourself a small jar and begin the feeding schedule, as described in the video, using a fraction of what you've built up. What I want you to do is slow down your feedings if the starter slows down and keep regular feedings if it's behaving alright.

 

How to make a sourdough starter










It will take atleast a week or two before your starter is ready.

Till then why not go for the poolish approach?

 

Toptier_Dough's picture
Toptier_Dough

Hey mate thanks for the response 

okay i guess theres a bit of confusion 

So far I've done the recipe with the poolish starter and as i explained the proofing processes took ages 


and i have tried to create the traditional sourdough starter with this method here https://www.chiceats.com/recipe/homemade-bread/how-make-and-maintain-sourdough-starter-aka-levain

(and it didn't workout yet for me) (I will begin my second attempt this weekend) 

what are your thoughts on this recipe for a sourdough starter? 



thanks mate 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Ideally we'd like to pre-ferment, using a poolish, 50% of the flour. But in your recipe there is only 150g water only making it possible to pre-ferment 150g of the flour. We're a bit stuck on that regard but you can try it again this time adding in extra yeast into the final dough to speed things up.

As far as the sourdough goes this will be a lesson in patience. Don't give in and start again. Carry on with what you've been doing but go for a fraction of the amount. Find a small jar and go for a tenth of the amount given. So from here on in keep 40g of what you've made so far and feed it 40g water + 40g flour (mix of wholegrain and bread flour). Keep that up for a week or two. Warmth and patience is the key. Use the video for a guide.

Toptier_Dough's picture
Toptier_Dough

Hey sorry mate heres the link to the correct website i made my starter from https://www.chiceats.com/recipe/homemade-bread/how-make-and-maintain-sourdough-starter-aka-levain

 

Toptier_Dough's picture
Toptier_Dough

thanks mate we will keep updated