Amount of N-50 Grease?
I tried posting this before, but it appears to have been sucked into some electronic black hole.
I'm renewing another N-50. The last time I did one, I was able to get the lubrication specs from Hobart (it took more than a little persistence - Hobart is covetous of their info). Unfortunately, I misplaced my notes, but I have a vague recollection of Hobart's service tech saying the N-50 uses 21 oz. of grease in their gearbox.
Now, the reason for this message; In the Service Manual 20 FL.oz. of grease is called for. Is this a typo like the EMergol as opposed to the correct ENergol one and the amount of grease should be 20 oz.advoirdupois?
I've dealt with my share of lubrication specs, but this is the first I've seen grease called to be measured out by volume.
Richard
Since I received no response to this message, I decided to roll my own.
The only assumption I used was that the relative density of my chosen grease, Lubriplate 930-2, stated to be 0.95, can be applied at room temperature (70 °F).
So, after some number crunching and rounding off to two significant digits, the 930-2 weighs: 0.99 oz./fl-oz. In other words, for all practical purposes, it doesn't matter - weighing the grease is as good as glopping it out by volume.
Richard
onesharpstore.com
Thanks, but no need to introduce the uncertainty in information from an unknown source, I've already done the calculations starting with the data from Lubriplate. Please see my second post, "Since I received no response".
My conclusion is that even if Hobart misspoke in the N-50 Service Manual Lubrication Chart and meant oz. instead of fl.-oz. it doesn't matter because the number of required ounces (avoirdupois) is the nearly the same as the number of fluid ounces. Whenever you're glopping that stuff into the X-mission case, a few tenths of an ounce either way is not going to matter.
Richard
Richard,
I purchased my little N-50 In 1997. It has given great service since then. I should add that it gets used a least three times a week. I'm pretty easy on it as most of my breads use 400g to 650g of flour. I will add that I do occasionally make a hard-bagel formula. No problems.
But a while back it started to sound different. Not like bearing or gear failure, just not what I was used to. I took the S/W Shift Plate off the side and found my issue immediately. None the factory grease was contacting shafts or gears. What little visible on the gears was thin and very dirty. Any remaining good factory grease was stuck to the insides of the housing and had the viscosity of paraffin. No way could the N-50 heat up enough to soften this glop.
So I used wooden tong depresses that I squared one end off to extract as much of the hardened grease as I could. Next I pack about one complete tube of the Mobile food grade grease as I could into the two cavities. I then carefully turned on the motor in speed one. Using a tong depressor I inserted more grease until the two cavities appeared full and the shafts/gears were happy.
I put the S/W plate back on and the old boy sounded 'factory-fresh' once more. I will add that a few weeks later I opened it up again and added a little more grease.
So, the total amount of grease I managed to stuff in was one tube which states it is 14.1 oz or 400 g. I figure that the two cavities still contained some residual traces of the hardened grease. Maybe 6 oz, making a total of 20 oz as you said you read. I agree with you in that the manual misspoke fluid ounces for 'ounces'.
Anyway, maybe some of this gibberish will give some confidence .... OH- REMEMBER-- WHEN YOU HAVE THE S/W PLATE OPEN, THE WIRES ON THE SWITCH ARE HOT. BE CAUTIOUS and do not use metal to pack grease.
There's a lot to chew on here.
1/ " OH- REMEMBER-- WHEN YOU HAVE THE S/W PLATE OPEN, THE WIRES ON THE SWITCH ARE HOT. BE CAUTIOUS"
For all the neophytes out there - ALWAYS DISCONNECT THE POWER BEFORE OPENING ANY ELECTRICAL DEVICE! In the case of an N-50, just unplug it. Anyway, if you need such an obvious precaution, perhaps you should be calling in the Hobart service guy.
2/ The N-50 takes a specific amount of grease and the ONLY way to arrive at that quantity is to suffer the royal PITA of splitting the transmission case from the motor housing, cleaning out the old goop and packing in the new.
If an unknown quantity of grease is packed into the transmission case, either the motor could labor (and overheat) churning through too much of the stuff or the internals could be starved from too little.
Moreover, unless you know for certain what type of grease was used to initially lubricate the machine, you do not know if the new grease is compatible.
A couple of decades ago, long before the internet and its nature of propagating misinformation, I called Hobart to get the lubrication specs for an N-50. I found it hard to believe that a major commercial manufacturer would be so unaccommodating regarding a simple maintenance question, but they were. I was directed to the closest Hobart dealer. The dealer could not give me the lubrication specs, either, but they could sell me the grease - - - at an exorbitant price.
I called Hobart again, adequately expressing my indignation of a vendor who would not answer a minor question regarding the care and feeding of their product. This time I was connected to a young service tech who gave me the info - sorta. Although he admitted he had never seen an N-50 in the flesh, he declared it took 21 oz. (not 20) of NGLI-2 food grade grease. I ran with that until I found a copy of the N-50 Service Manual complete with its typos.
When I saw that manual called for Darina #2, I contacted the applications guys at Friske Bros. (Lubriplate) to verify that their FGL-2 (NGLI-2 food grade) which I had just stuffed into an N-50 was a crossover for the Darina. It was not. Thinking I could just replace the bulk of the FGL-2 with the correct grease ( Lubriplate 930-2), I asked if any residual FGL left behind would be compatible with the correct grease. It would not. So, I went through the N-50 clear out the old, bring in the new routine, AGAIN!
3/ "Next I pack about one complete tube of the Mobile food grade grease as I could into the two cavities."
One of those two cavities exposed by popping the Control Box Plate, is in the motor field housing. Although it might do no harm, I can't imagine the purpose of packing it full of grease.
4/ Poking a wooden tongue depressor into a gear train under power is a very bad idea. For one thing, with the N-50 there's that electrical shock hazard I already addressed. For another, if a chunk of the depressor gets bitten off, it could lock up the transmission and then the cases will HAVE to be split in order to clear it.
5/ "I figure that the two cavities still contained some residual traces of the hardened grease."
You bet there is still grease left behind. You can't begin to imagine how much and where grease is stuffed into an N-50 until you split one open.
So, if for some reason you are compelled to change the lube in your N-50, undo the 7 tie screws, separate the transmission case from the motor housing and relube the thing properly. It’s not all that difficult, the trans comes off in one lump while the rest of the mixer stays intact. Done in a timely manner, nothing inside should need replaced, even the hard fiber thrust washers, but splitting the cases gives you the opportunity to check the internal parts. Once serviced, an N-50 in a home kitchen should be good for at least another 20 years.
If this type of thing gives you pause, take it to a jobber – preferably one with some good sense and a deft touch.
rgsapolich,
What a very in-depth comment about adding some grease to the little N-50. You really sound all knowing and well grounded (no pun intended) on this subject. Should you search this site you will find several posts about adding grease in this fashion along with totally rebuilding the N-50.
Again, my N-50 has been in constant service and daily use since 1997. It has been close to a year now since I "packed" grease in the transmission and planetary areas. No overheating, laboring, or any other symptom that would indicate my having set the transmission up for failure.
It is running quite and smooth in all three speeds. It has no issues mixing my low hydration NY Bagel formula or when my wife grinds large quantities of meats for sausage or burgers. But, I will certainly keep your wonderful advice in mind should I ever have to service the gears in the future.
Again, thank you for such comments.
Hi.
First post.
I'm an actual Tinker. I have been fixing everything for 30+ years. If I can't fix it, it ain't broke.
I did some looking around on this Shell DARINA 2 grease that the old Hobart N-50 books talk about. Shell still makes it under it's new name, GADUS S2 U1000 https://www.mil-specproducts.com/Documents/1525_gadus_s2_u1000_2.pdf
NOW, for the purists out there (like you and I), I have included the old Shell Darina spec sheet as well: https://www.mil-specproducts.com/Documents/707_PDS-DARINA%20SD%202.pdf
I also found some nice discussions about noisy old N-50 on this link: http://www.fixya.com/support/t10206740-old_hobart
I picked up this old girl for $35 (yes, you heard right). It works, but I'm going to bring it back- and do it right!
hobart1.jpeg
The manual does say 20 fluid but I am sure it is a by weight. At least that is what I am going to do. You also need to coat the planatary gears as well.
From a hobart tech who was probably reading from a newer manual as the older ones call for darina 2
N50- 20 oz 00-103881-00041 (32 0z 64.00)
Using a food grade grease is not required but it may give you a warm and fuzzy feeling. I won't hurt, Most greases are approved for use in food plants are not toxic for incidental contact. The stuff hobart sells does not carry food grade testing, or so i was told by a Hobart Techalx ep2
nickelmore,
Good input to the grease issue. I used 'food grade' because I thought if I didn't and posted that I used 'just-grease' I'd get jumped on by the Grease PC folks. Instead I got..... well anyway.
Again you are correct that the planetary cavity and gear cavity needs grease. Both the transmission cavity and the planetary cavity can be accessed via the switch plate.
Using good common sense and judgement a person can limitedly service both cavities. Maybe not a complete cleaning, but in my case getting some much needed fresh lubricant into the machine was paramount. Plus it has worked for a year now. Heck, the mixer is not the Space Shuttle.
I gotta tell you,, that if I had a real problem I would pack up my little 1997 Hobie and take him the Hobart Hospital and leave my AMX card there. Lastly, I really like the mixer. My wife uses it, I use it and it does just what we need it to do.
Have fun.... As us motorcycle riders say... "Preserve Nature & Always Wear A Helmet"
Good Baking..............
The N50 I am restoring for the wife is spec 4749 Not really sure how old it is and I have not had any luck contacting anyone that will look it up.
It is completely tore down now soaking in de-greaser. What is strange is that on the older ones there are "oil wicks" for the rear motor bearing (bronze sleeve) and the center bearing also a bronze sleeve. The wicks are wool and no longer available....I will be fabricating something. But I was wondering what they are using on new ones. Mine has a place to oil on the top center of the back cover and a the same type of oil drip on the front auxiliary drive.
Hopefully I can get the wife to pick out a powder coat color so I can get it done pretty quick.
The next project is a vintage 1963 A200, My play area is all commercial stuff. I can hardly wait to get the mixers on line to start making some decent dough.
If you live in a metropolitan area, find an industrial supply house, they should have the wicking. If you do not, McMaster-Carr has it, but it will cost more plus shipping.
Rich (near The Burgh)
Thanks, I found some 2 inch strip I am going to order from Grainger. I am lucky enough to be able to do will call at McMaster. Interestingly enough the big H does not have them.
Another interesting note is that the bearing listed for the armature are now the same part number. on my unit they are clearly two different parts. The rear one is cross drilled for the wicking and the front one has a slot machined into it in the bottom front of the bearing (bushing) that had wicking in it,
I am curious for anyone that has had a newer machine apart to see what those look like.
Also what Lubriplate mumber did you use?
Thanks,
"Both the transmission cavity and the planetary cavity can be accessed via the switch plate."
Not entirely so. While removing the Control Box Plate does expose an opening to the transmission cavity, the planetary "cavity" can only be accessed by removing the Planetary Subassembly (P-Sub). A taper pin, which fixes the P-Sub. to the Planetary Shaft, must be driven out in order to remove the P-Sub..
Should it be of interest, some notes regarding Planetary Subassembly removal:
1/ Make certain that the taper pin is driven out from its smaller diameter. With a small taper pin (#1) like this, it is easy to make a mistake and drive the lager diameter of the taper pin completely through the P-Sub. hub which will bitch the tapered hole. Even that botch can be remedied, but that is another subject altogether.
3/ Back up the P-Sub. hub in some manner which will not mar it when tapping out the taper pin.
4/ The P-Sub. might "stick " on its shaft from age or from a burr on the hole drilled through the shaft (Hobart drills a straight hole through the shaft and does not taper ream it). Wiggling the P-Sub. while pulling it outward usually will remove it. If not, judicious prying between the P-Sub. and its internal gear will often work. Tapered hardwood sticks work well enough for this and do not mar the pot metal P-Sub. Worst case scenario for a P-Sub which refuses to release its grasp on its shaft is to waste the plug in the center of the hub and go at the P-Sub with a puller. Out of the three N-50’s I’ve renewed, I never had to resort to that extreme.
5/ DO NOT DROP the Planetary Subassembly! Although heavily counter-weighted, the P-Sub. Is only pot metal which will likely be marred or distorted if it hits a concrete floor after falling from workbench. In my experience, it is nearly impossible to straighten a deformed pot metal casting without fracturing it.
Richard (near the Burgh)
Thank you for bringing this up. Im also rebuilding 2 N50s (33777) at the moment so this thread is very helpful. When i tried to call Hobart service, I was surprised that Hobart will not service residential equipment owners (which include oil/grease replacement) here in southern california! They mentioned that it was due to insurance policies but if they could change the grease/lubricants, it would cost over a thousand (5-8hrs labor) plus parts. Way much more than what I paid these two N50s!
The service manual that everyone has is definitely old using Dinara #2 and Energol. And I couldnt find much info on these 2.
what did type of lubricant and how much did you use for the planetary? thanks
Same grease as the primary I believe it is 2 OZ. Which basically means just a smear on the gears.
wilg - sorry to take so long to reply. This forum's notifications land in a mailbox I seldom review..
"what did type of lubricant and how much did you use for the planetary?"
Just as nickelmore stated, I used the same grease as I stuffed into the transmission case, Lubriplate 930-2. I apply a goodly smear around the internal planetary gear with some extra. If I would have to guess, the 2 oz. nickelmore mentioned sounds about right.
I've used Fiske Bros. Lubriplate products for years in industrial applications where they are highly regarded. I would think other vendors offer equivalent products; I'm just in the habit of buying lubricants at industrial supply houses which stock Lubriplate products. Fiske Bros can cross-over any lubricant their equivalent stock number.
Rich (near the Burgh)
Hi,
I'm sure it's a long shot but I just acquired a N50 and wondering if you have a referral to have it maintenance? I LOVE it however, I feel like it could use a regrease and hesitant to tackle it myself. I live in the Southbay, Torrance.
Thanks in advance!
Hello, I'm new here I just bought an n50 and I'm trying to give it manteniance by myself. Let me know your advices, to dissemble. Cheers from 2021!
Take you time and take lots of pictures you will need s small gear puller (I used a battery terminal puller that I modified)
Put ALL the parts in separate bags and label them. If you have a parts diagram you can even put item number on the bag so i two months or two years you have an idea how it goes back together.
I've never needed a gear puller on the several occasions I've pulled apart an N50.
As per the service manual, to separate the transmission housing from the motor housing, undo the 7 main bolts, then use a soft-faced mallet and protective cloth and tap on the top of the attachment housing and the two halves will open apart. From my Hobart restoration thread (https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/24332/hobart-n50-restoration-experience#comment-237589):
1. Unplug mixer
2. Remove the rear cover and take of the starter cage (4 small nuts)
3. Use a long shaft large flat blade screw driver to undo the 7 bolts holding the two halves of the mixer together.
4. Take off the side cover (the one the gear lever sticks out of)
5. Gently disengage the gear lever from the internal cam - it should be obvious how - and note how it goes back together
6. Now you can separate the two halves of the mixer body. Place a rag over the attachment hub and tap over the top of the hub with a rubber mallet, which should separate the two pieces (don't let it drop!).
7. Scoop out / wash out grease and replace with new stuff. If you're keen, by all means fiddle with the gears and washers.
8. The grease I've used and recommend, and it's similar in appearance to the OEM Hobart stuff that first came in my mixer, is Mobil FM222. You'll need around 566 grams i.e. just under one and a half cartridges.
8. Reassemble in reverse order.
As mentioned above, don't do what I also did, which is to drop one of the main housings...it's a *very* expensive learning exercise, as you pretty much have to replace the damaged part. And at Hobart prices, that'll cost you an arm and a leg. And a kidney.