Hobart N50 restoration experience
EDIT August 2024:
Links to the oft-requested N50 service manuals and parts diagrams:
1) N50 Spec Sheet: https://nextcloud.ratiro.org.nz/s/7zR9YC7p7mdNLTc
2) N50 Mixer Parts Catalog: https://nextcloud.ratiro.org.nz/s/rr4yAK2Qb8a87PX
3) N50 Instruction Manual: https://nextcloud.ratiro.org.nz/s/YnFg9RnMNmkLNdJ
4) N50 Service manual (1983) with updates: https://nextcloud.ratiro.org.nz/s/ycGn7C6fPXXNdbN
Enjoy!
As a followup to my original N50 thread: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23049/n50-arrivednow-refurb
I'm reporting my experiences stripping down and refurshing my recently-acquired second-hand Hobart N50 mixer (which now will sit alongside my DLX2000). Hopefully it will be useful to anyone else taking this (not too difficult) project on. Unfortunately I didn't take any before pictures (lazy me!), but it was in somewhat beaten-up shape with well-worn paint over most of the base. A nice collection of photos of another person's strip and rebuild can be found here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/zug/sets/72157622051782719/
Parts were missing - the rubber feet, attachment cap and thumbscrew, no dough hook or beater attachment. The Hobart logo sticker was worn. The gear cover plate was warped. The bowl latch spring was broken. She did run, and run smoothly in all gears, but I had always bought it with the goal of a full tear down, repaint and rebuild.
The N50 service manual helped a little, but it is definitely doable without it. It has some useful tips, such as how to split the motor and transmission housings from each other and also how to adjust the transmission for smooth, quiet operation. The pictures/photos are also helpful. It's worthwhile having in additon to the parts diagrams freely available from Hobart.
Firstly, I ordered all of the missing / worn / broken parts. So far so good. As discussed in the thread above, I ordered some Morey synthetic 'blue' food grade grease (expensive - and incorrect - see below). During the strip down, which is mostly a methodical and logical process assuming you have the usual basic tools, patience and a modicum of mechanical knowledge, all went well. You will need some pin punches to drive out the various shaft pins. Other than that, no special equipment needed. The technique in the service manual of hitting the accessory hub attachment with a hammer in order to separate the motor housing from the gear housing is very worthwhile.
The most major problem in the rebuild occurred at this stage: having removed the motor from the housing, I accidentally dropped the housing on the concrete floor! It was immediately obviously dented - ouch! I completed the tear down, removed all of the old (brown, discoloured) grease from the gear housing and took all of the paintable parts to the powder coaters. There, we discovered that the motor housing wouldn't mate properly to the gear housing due to the dent. Popping across to the engineering shop, I thought all was a relief, as they managed to gently tap the housing back into what looked like was the correct shape, as it aligned and fitted once more to the gear housing. Whew (or so I thought). Got the bits back from the powder coaters, and the bowl lift handle back from the metal re-platers (it's nickle, in case you're interested). Also got some new decals printed using a Hobart logo online: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hobart_logo.svg
I then reassembled the gears and transmission and packed it with the Morey synthetic blue... some disgustingly sticky, tacky stuff. Now the real pain - the stator wouldn't fit into the still-distorted motor housing - arrrrgh! It's such a tight fit with no tolerance for variance. I tried filing the fins off the inside of the motor housing - and did get it to fit - but of course the rotor then wouldn't line up within it, while still rotating freely with the starter housing on. Realising that I would need a new stator housing was painful in the extreme - but that's what you get for dropping the most expensive piece of the mixer! Determined to see the project through I bit the large bullet and ordered a new housing which arrived in due course. I finally refitted the the motor and connected it all up. Hit the start switch to test... A loud "hummmmmm", but no rotation!! It turns out two problems were occurring:
1) The blue synthetic morey grease was just too tacky. Although it's a NLGI grade 2 viscocity (the correct one), it is extremely tacky stuff. Changing to a different synthtic but soapy-type grease (similar to the original stuff, but synthetic) - hooray!
2) The contacts on the start switch (not the on-off switch, but the switch at the rear of the housing) were not being adequately compressed. I'm not sure why this is, but I have managed to shim between the rotor and switch so that it turns on and off. It's a fine balance between the mixer turning on properly and having the contacts too close so they're shorting. One day I might take it to the local mixer service agent for a quick look, but for now it's working just fine.
[UPDATE 26/12/15: the problem with the starter motor was eventually traced to needing a shim (metal washer) on the shaft of the rotor, in the motor housing. Finally working this out had two advantages as the rotor is now correctly positioned a few mm's further to the rear of the mixer. One, the starter works first time, every time without shims. Two, the (17T) drive pinion doesn't strip the (49T) main gear. Don't ask how I found out this was the problem, except know that it cost two replacement main gears to figure out. To assist, the location of the shim sits at part #18 on this diagram: http://thesmartpartsestore.hobartservice.com/category/7939/motor-parts and is listed as "spring, loading" (SL-005-10).
For older model N50's, the location of the shim is at part #14 & 15 on this parts diagram: http://thesmartpartsestore.hobartservice.com/category/7926/motor-parts. Part numbers are WS-007-21 and/or WS-007-19.
I made the first batch of pizza dough and a sourdough bread with it yesterday - and it is a fantastic mixer. It's less work than my DLX2000 - in fact it's no work at all, in that I don't have to babysit the initial process to ensure ingredients are properly incorporating, or ensure the dough is still rotating around the bowl properly. I look forward to trying it out with drier pasta and bagel dough later this week.
As you can see from the photos below - it's a custom two-tone colour, since I couldn't be bothered getting the new motor housing poweder coated in the same colour as the other bits I'd gotten done. I like the effect, I've decided! The new motor housing also came with the warning plate attached, and has a larger bolt at the front corner - visible in the first picture - holding it onto the column (which necessitated tapping a larger 3/8th" hole into the column).
Overall, it's been a fun project (dropped housing notwithstanding). I've learnt a lot - and can now pull the mixer to bits in about 5-10 minutes.
Lookin' good. Congrats.
It looks like new. Hope that it runs that way too.
So now that you are done with it and can add up all the costs (except for the time spent and the enjoyment received) how did you fare relative to the cost of a new one?
It also looks like the cooling is all conduction via the stator and out to the case through the fins. Is that right? I guess that the grease carries some heat from the gears to the housing, but they are quite efficient so I expect that 90% of the heat is from the magnetic losses and coil resistance.
Yeah - it runs fine! Or at least as quiet / smooth as when I got it, which is OK by me.
This is especially good since the adjustment screw for the eccentric shaft was frozen in place (and made even more frozen by the powder coating). So, luckily I didn't have to adjust it in order to get the gears running quietly.
In terms of heat, it did two 900g pizza doughs one after the other (8-9 minutes each), and the motor housing was just barely warm. Yes, cooling is by simple conduction (and then radiation). And the 600g of grease in the housing is another decently-sized heat sink.
The only 'not perfect' aspect is when starting. Because the rotor is shimmed to the starting switch, sometimes it needs to be turned a few degrees by hand (via the planetary) in order for the starting contacts points to meet properly so the motor starts (rather than hums). As mentioned above I may get it looked at one day, but it really is a very minor issue.
Cost-wsie it was still cheaper than a new one... which is $5,000 here in NZ! I'm not sure how that price is justified given the strength of the USD/NZD, but there you go. I got the mixer second hand for $800NZD - they very rarely come up for sale here (although another went for $400 a month later on our largest online auction site - sigh!). The new stator housing was $1300NZD - *ouch*. The price of parts for these mixers is, I suppose, governed by the lack of OEM parts and the strict distribution channels Hobart is able to maintain. They're a bit like Stihl chainsaws in that regard.
I suspect I could have saved a few dollars by asking a friend/relative in the US to obtain the housing from Hobart USA and then shipping it here privately. I did have an option to purchase another second hand N50 for less than this price, but at the end of the day, I didn't want to tear down a working N50 just to scavenge it for parts - a bit sentimental, I know. I'd also set my sights of restroring this one - and if you've ever done car restoration (as I have) - it's a labour of love and doesn't make any financial sense! In a blatant act of self-justification - all up it cost about $2800 NZD - still much cheaper than a new one AND I now have the equivalent of a diploma in N50 servicing. And do you know the price of tertiary education these days? :)
As a last query, the new bowl spring latch I received from Hobart doesn't quite seem to hold the bowl as tightly as I remember it being on my brother's kitchen aid Pro. It doesn't "click" into place. I've attached a photo below. To those who have an N50 - how tight is the fit on yours? It looks to me as thought the spring is about 3mm too short.
[UPDATE 21/7/11] The top right-angled part of the spring latch broke off cleanly this morning, through where the red line is on the photo below, when I bumped the bowl lip on it. Although initially annoying, it has allowed the two screws to be properly tightened, and now the spring latch sits lower and operates perfectly - yay!! Interestingly, the part is illustrated without this top piece in the Hobart catalog.]
As a further followup, I managed to locate a couple of photos of the mixer before I started on it. Although it doesn't look too bad in these, it was quite rough around the edges and the photos belied the fact that it wasn't just a quick powder coat of the base.
I saw your posts on WACEM and I am so pleased you was able to restore this workhorse! Congratulations!
Hi,
Just happened on your site, as I'm looking to regrease my N-50 as well.
Your machine looks great - nice job !
I know it's been a while but I have a few questions if that's ok . . .
1. Do you remember what you ended up using for grease, if the Morey grease didn't work out so well ?
2. Also, I'm pretty sure I'll have to re-grease the planetary gears. But for the gear-box - do you get to that going in from the back ?
3. I take it you just went by the exploded parts diagrams, right ? AFAIK, the manuals are not made available by Hobart.
4. Did you have to do any special adjustments - gear shimming and the like - to get it back running smoothly ?
Thanks a lot if you have a moment.
Kent
San Francisco
1. Update 25/12/15: Mobil FM222 Foodgrease is very similar to Hobart OEM, and what I now use/recommend in my N50.
2. No - through the side cover (behind the gear selector lever) is the easiest way to push in some fresh grease for a top up. For a full exchange of grease however, you'll need to dissassemble the whole mixer and scoop out all of the old grease from the transmission housing (that's the front half, as opposed to the motor housing, which is the rear half).
3. Yes - but after I was nearly done, I got access to the N50 service manual which makes life easier. Private message me if you want me to email you.
4. No - without the maual, I wasn't sure of clearances. Further, one of the adjustment screws was stuck in place, and I never bothered to use an extractor to free it. With the manual, there is a good guide to the amount of shimming you need to achieve the factory-spec and also a good guide to "tuning" it so the gears run as smoothly as possible. Luckily, mine runs smoothly despite the above!
hello Breadman_NZ
I just wanted to say thanks a bunch for your different posts on various sites regarding the refurbishing of an n50. I recently purchased an n50 as a Christmas present for my girlfriend. She really wants a kitchenaid, but yeah, I'm not getting a new one, and after doing some internetting, it seems like the n50 is the way to go for a heavy duty 5qt.
It is a 1954 model and still works wonderfully, actually. It came with a kitchenaid bowl, so I went ahead and purchased the '256' spiral hook for it like you recommended on another site, as well as the hobart EDDdough-005 whatever it is spiral hook. the hobart hook has not come in just yet.
my quest now is to search for and hunt down all the gorgeous metal attachments by kitchenaid and hobart for this thing. can't wait to surprise her with it all, haha.
I took lots of tips from others, and learned a lot, so share and share alike! The Flickr site with the photos of another N50 restoration were really nice, but it seems it's been turned into a private album now, sadly.
It's great to read you've got such an old N50 up for restoration - 48 years old. Not many kitchen appliances can claim that sort of longievity, especially one that works as hard as a dough kneader. Gotta love commercial gear. You will NOT regret the N50 over a domestic KA, in my opinion. Effortless power.
The #12 hub of the A120 and larger mixers has a far larger, more commercial range of attachments available - although the #10 hub of the N50 is compatible with the cheaper (and more cheaply made in general) KA attahments, which is good in its own way.
I've got my eye on this N50 metal mincer attachment ... seems to be very good quality: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Meat-Grinder-Food-Chopper-attachment-for-Hobart-N50-c100-ce100-Mixer-/160868917213?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257488dfdd
If you get the above mincer, I'd be keen to know how you find it, since I'll probably get it (at some point over the next few years).
I may get that grinder. I am for right now trying to get it to knead and operate perfectly in terms of the heights and what not. with the 256 dough hook it struggles to get the mix going at the bottom when using small amounts. the majority of the size of baking that we do is like, 1/2 cup of starter , 1/2 cup of water, and 1 1/2 cups of flour. it makes enough for a nice small round that is perfect sized for the two of us. I practiced with that mixture amount and the 256 hook wouldn't even get it going, haha. So one of two things needs to happen. the first is that I need to wait until the hobart hook arrives, and try that out, and the second is I might need to get more used to mixing up more batches of dough.
I have no idea what i'm doing. I will admit that. But as an engineer, I know that starting with quality equipment and tooling is the best way forward, so that's why I went with this little hobart.
So far I have ordered the spring clip for the back of the bowl (on the lift mechanism), new rubber feet, and a kitchenaid whisk and flat beater for this thing.
One thing I am really interested in finding would be a pastry knife for this guy. It looks like they are pretty rare, and were only really on the early model G kitchenaids and the early hobart n50's. It doesn't look too different from a flat beater though.. Maybe I could cut down parts of the flat beater to turn it into a pastry knife? Taking off one side of it and those horizontal braces could turn it into a makeshift pastry knife...
Once I figure out how to get the regular dough kneading going I will start moving forward with getting attachments that also work for it. Thanks for the link, I might just give that very grinder a try.
Yup - I had the same problem to a greater or lesser degree with all of the hooks. Here's the solution:
1. Use the beater to bring the dough together - about 30 seconds or so. You might want to give a quick mix by hand or pulse the mixer on and off for 1/2 second pulses to prevent flour from spraying everywhere.
2. Once you've done the above, switch to the hook and knead away.
If you manage to source a pastry knife, let me know! :)
Is the pastry knife no longer available from hobart? I have a part number for it, but I am not sure whether or not it will even still be available.
The pastry knife for the N50 has not been available for many many years. Hobart still has them for other larger mixers.
Back when I was actively buying KA and Hobart mixers for my collection, you could buy a pastry knife for $20 or so on Ebay. I was able to buy one for each of my two chrome model G mixers without any trouble at all. A pastry knife came with my Hobart N50.
I think I am partly to blame for the scarcity of the pastry knives. I touted them so much on the old Kitchenaid Mixer forum that they became popular. Those that have them now, won't let them go.
Now............they are few and far between and cost a fortune.
I had the opportunity to come across something else that caught my eye on your website!!!
it's the copper insert you speak of!
How will this help baking, or is it only good for when whipping up eggs? Will it help with cookies and pies and stuff? From what I can tell anything involving egg whites or sugar and it will whip up much better?
It was discontinued in 1979, even though it's listed as a part number on various websites.
Here is the grinder I ended up buying.
New old stock Aluminium / Steel hobart-kitchenaid food grinder.
I think i'm going to get the 'new school' pasta press attachment for it.
A grinder almost like that came with My old KA Model G Commercial mixer. Except the tray is slightly smaller & round & there's no pusher! Do you know where I can get a wooden pusher?
On eBay they have food safe plastic pushers available, and you might be able to find a wood one if you're lucky. Or you can find a local woodworker to turn one out..
Hi
Iv'e just bought a n50 and looking to overhaul I know this post is quite old but I would really appreciate a service manual to make sure I do things properly . if anyone can help me out that would be great .
thx
Sure thing - send me a PM.
thx for quick response, not sure how you pm on here, cant seem to find it ?
Did you ever get that service manual from him and do you still have it and would be willing to share? I have an opportunity to purchase an n50 that is missing parts but is just $200 and I would love to see Parts guide or list so I can make myself a list and see how much it would cost me to get the parts that I need for this thing.
I've edited my first post with links to all the N50 documents, including parts list and service manual :)
Hi. Do you still have a copy of the service manual? Would you be a able to email me a copy?
mass.mail.box@gmail.com
Ps. The larger bold hole in the motor housing you mentioned is to accommodate a interlock switch of the EU model
(not sure if you knew this, might be useful)
Send me a private message via the forum tools.
Not even sure how to do that...
I can't find a private message option/button anywhere!
It can be troublesome. Email Floydm (the maintainer of this site) and he will hopefully sort you out...consider it a little test to see if you'll be capable of tearing down the N50 once you get the service manual ;)
Sorry, I don't see how I can do that? I have already stripped down and rebuilt my gearbox. I was hoping the manual would give a little help tuning the gears. I didn't think this was a right of passage type of thing.
It would be great if you could help , but if not, I understand.
Was joking. It's not a rite of passage, but I don't wish to post the link in a public forum.
Email floydm (floydm@thefreshloaf.com) and ask for private message function to be activated for you. To send a PM, click on any thread poster's username (i.e. "breadman_nz" just to the left of this message), then click on "send this user a private message" in the page which opens. Good luck!
I'm going to purchase the Mobile Mobil FM222 Foodgrease on Amazon. I've been studying my N50 to determine the problem with the Transmission. The planetary action on the beater and the power #10 drive quits. I've determined that it doesn't appear to be any of the bevel gears or drive pins (that I can see) Floyd sent me a beautiful mechanical drawing and I've been cleaning all the grease out to determine exactly what I'm up against. I want to order out the grease to have it on and when I get the repairs made. How man cartridges did you use greasing your N50? both on the planetary section and the transmission section? thank you, george young
The manual calls for 20 oz of Shell Darina #2 grease, which is no longer available. For those of you in countries with sensible numbers, this is 566 grams.
The slipping planetary and attachment hub is likely caused by a slip between the hub bevel gear and lower planetary shaft. In my case it was because the pin which links these two had jumped out of its notch.
George,
I purchase two tubes of Mobile FM222 Food Grease. I used a tube and 1/4, I think I could have packed in a little more if I tried. Floyd please share the drawing or let know if has been posted. Thanks!
@ratatouille . . .
That's very generous of you to go to all the trouble of tracking down the venerable N-50 for your girlfriend.
Myself, years ago when my grandmother passed on and all her stuff was divvied up amongst family, I said the only thing I really wanted was the N-50. It's gotten a lot of use ever since, and nice memories as well.
One thing . . . how do I say this . . .
re : " She really wants a kitchenaid, but yeah, I'm not getting a new one,"
As I'm sure you know, we engineer types and guys in general love machinery. But from what I've seen, not all women are quite so entranced with the idea of industrial machinery, if you get my drift. So if she's really got her heart set on something new and sleek, and perhaps expecting it, I'd hate to see you in an awkward moment when she opens her Christmas present. She'll most likely end up loving it, but have you thought about how you're going to present and explain that vaunted baking wonder ? You know, just so she isn't awkwardly crestfallen, with you not being quite as appreciated as you deserve - but instead she realizes what a great gift she's getting. ;-)
Maybe she's a machinery nut, I don't know.
It's funny, I've had several female housemates over the years, and almost every one of them has put a nice piece of fabric over the TV in their room, should they have one. Most males just don't seem to mind. Just an observation.
Good luck with your project !
Kent
I'm lucky my wife likes (or at least tolerates) my whims of having large, over-engineered commercial-style gear in the kitchen. It fits our "buy once, buy right" mentality along with recycling second-hand stuff and having that stuff be repairable/restorable rather than disposable.
... at least that's how I'd be selling it to your better half! As WE know, having an N50 will make you the envy of your mates and those in the know.
I have ALWAYS believed in the philosophy that you buy the best once! Not only in mixers, but in other kitchen appliances.
That is why I have a Robot Coupe R2 Food Processor rather than a Cuisinart! And I like buying the commercial small appliances that have lived in commercial kitchens for my home. Why buy something new when you can have something even better for the same or less money?
In my group of girl friends, we all have this philosophy. I don't think it is a male thing.
So I'm slightly confused now.
After reading this page:
http://leoladysw.blogspot.com/
It looks like the kitchenaid model G and hobart n50 parts and pieces are interchangeable when it comes to beaters/whips/hooks, but the regular kitchenaid K5A / K5SS style attachments won't necessarily work because the depths are off. Is there truth to this? What kind of dimensional differences do we have?
I don't believe my hobart N50 is using the correct bowl with it; honestly I have no idea what bowl it has. Here are some photos of it.
Should I get the correct bowl? Will this thing fit the kitchenaid bowl with it or the hobart bowl with it better?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Metro-Design-Beater-Blade-for-5-Quart-KitchenAid-Bowl-Lift-Mixers-White-/200824266209?pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=...
That's a beautiful vintage nameplate, switch and gear lever - I assume you're going to clean those up and reuse, rather than buying new bits? The new ones aren't as stylish as those old ones by a long shot!
I have a model 4749 just like yours, even has the "vent" hole in the front of the base. I have attached a picture of the nameplate. I have started to dig into it and have found four bushings (see picture) that are for the threaded studs or the screws. I am trying to locate these on a schematic. I do have a parts list for this model but can't locate them Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
Hello,
If I'm not wrong these bushings are located behind the stator (when you look it from the rear of the machine). They are mandatory to stop the stator at its right place, but are no more longer present on recent N50 since the stator is stopped by the housing itself.
Regards
Makes sense that they are stops for the stator. My concern is that someone put them in there without good reason since I did not see it any the parts schematic. Thanks!
Looks like you've got the KA bowl, K5ASBP(https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004SGFU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1). The proper Hobart part number bowl is SST005, which has a flat lip, rather than a rolled one (https://www.amazon.com/Hobart-BOWL-SST005-Bowl-N50-Mixer/dp/B007RZLCK8).
I've only ever had the Kitchen Aid bowls for my N50 and they are fine.
As for the attachments, I recommend getting the proper N50 attachments (Beater-ALU005, DWhip-SST005 and spiral dough hook EDDOUGH-ALU005). The KA dough hooks don't quite work as well as the N50 parts as the sizes are a touch off.
Is a Kitchenaid bowl. You can tell by the top rim being enclosed. This is not a NSF approved bowl like the N50 would have. But for home use, it does not matter and makes absolutely no difference. I am Leoladysw and the blog you quoted is my own blog.
What happens if i use regular K5A based attachments for it? I believe the height will be incorrect as I need to get hobart n50 / kitchenaid Model G specific attachments such as dough hook / beater / whisk ?
You are correct. The 5A attachments will be too short and too narrow compared to the N50 attachments.
I can confirm that. I have both an N-50 and a Kitchenaid K5-SS.
The bowls appear to be exactly the same size - although the N-50 bowl has the flange lip. The K5-SS bowl works fine on the N-50 with the N-50 attachments though.
But the N-50 attachments are about 5/8" longer, so they couldn't be used on the K5-SS - they would interfere at the bottom of the bowl. I tried it.
Conversely, the K5-SS attachments work on the N-50, but then there's ~5/8" more of gap at the bottom.
I guess the K5-SS pulls the bowl up just that much higher, so its own attachments work without too much of a gap.
The attachment widths appear to be about the same, at least for the whisk and mixer paddle.
Wow, that is awesome! You have quite an amazing site, I would like to say thanks for all the wonderful information :)
Thank you, for visiting my blog. I am glad you like it.
By the way, a Kitchenaid bowl spring latch fits perfectly on this 1954 N50. The one I ordered is this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/120985618341?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
Based on possibly breadman_nz's recommendation!
breadman_nz :
When you put grease into the gearbox through the gear lever opening, did you more or less fill it up ?
Btw, for anyone else doing this without a grease-gun, one way to try is to partially fill a freezer zip-lock bag, close it, then snip one of the bottom corners to create a poor man's pastry decorating cone.
ps: I got your pm - replied - thanks very much.
Yep - just keep pushing it in there. It would be damn near impossible to over grease it. Although with a grease gun, you could get more in, any excess is going to ooze back out the gearbox cover anyway.
One thing I noticed is that the '54 N50 has two little zerk fittings for oil to be added every couple of uses in addition to requiring grease. One at the front right near the PTO, one at the rear at the round casing on the back. I am not sure what kind of oil to put in it, do I have to call hobart on this one, or does anyone know?
You beat me to it - I was going to ask the same question today.
The 1983 Hobart service manual recommends Emergol HLP-68 (which I think is a mispelling of Energol HLP-68) - for motor bearings, motor bearing wick, and thumb screw. That's the only mention of "oil".
Btw, are those motor sleeve bearings . . . ball bearings ? or just bushing bearings - anyone know ?
Another old N-50 manual recommends 3 drops of oil in each fitting, once a month.
"Energol HLP-68" is a BP owned brand of mineral based hydraulic fluid with antiwear additives.
It's generally used for bearing, gear, hydraulic systems, variable speed changers, etc.
As far as viscosity, it's more or less equivalent to SAE 80W Gear oil, or SAE 20 Engine oil . I would think that if you can't find the right hydraulic fluid, the gear oil would be the better choice - more on that in a minute.
Btw, here are some tables with equivalents :
I happen to have some Kal-Gard SAE20 motorcycle fork oil - which is a hydraulic oil - w/ molybdenum additive for anti-wear - so I might use that. But I don't think that particular oil is made anymore.
That's the short answer - now for a little explanation, probably putting way to fine a point on it. But I was curious so I looked up a few things. If someone has a better short answer I'd like to know. Somehow I doubt it's really all that critical.
=======================================================
re: HLP-68
HLP oil is a classification of Hydraulic Oil - meaning a mineral oil based type, and the "P" means "antiwear additives".
See http://www.hk-hydraulik.com/en/hydraulics-encyclopaedia/hydraulic-liquids
The "68" part is a viscosity rating from the ISO viscosity rating system, which rates oils for performance at 40°C.
There are equivalents in the SAE system - see the chart here :
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/
You can see the line from ISO 68 (at the left) lining up with SAE 20 Engine Oil and SAE 80W Gear Oil
on the right.
Engine oil has a different scale from Gear oil - so you can see that Gear oil SAE 80w is about equivalent, actually,
to SAE 20 Engine Oil. (It's not equivalent to SAE 80 Engine oil.)
About Engine Oil vs Gear Oil :
Engine Oil lubrication basically relies on a thin film of oil developed by an oil pump.
But gears don't normally have pumped oil, so they use oil w/ special additives to handle the more extreme pressures they endure.
I'm thinking if you can't find hydraulic oil, use gear oil, as we don't have pumped oil pressure in the N-50.
See : http://www.amsoil.com/articlespr/2007/article_gearoilbasics.aspx
The "W" in SAE 80W stands for "Winter" - a designation for oils whose viscosity is measured at low temperatures (not 40°C). So SAE 80W means that in low temps, the oil performs like Gear oil SAE 80 at the normal higher temp. So it's actually lower viscosity than SAE 80 to be able to perform like it - at lower temps. I think I got that right. ;-)
See : http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/
That's the back story - if anyone comes up with a great oil solution, I'd like to know.
I've done a bit of oil research myself in my motorsports engineering days, and you're pretty much spot on with everything regarding the oil viscosities! However I would like to make a small clarification regarding the famous W number, and how confusing it is/can be.
The W means a couple of things sort of. The W is associated with -18c. No letter is associated with 100c , only the SAE designation.
Quote from S. Peterson on BobistheOilGuy ( Another great oil forum for oil enthusiasts; oil : bobistheoilguy :: bread : thefreshloaf;
"
If there is only one number (SAE 20) it means the lubricant viscosity falls within the viscosity band for 20 weight oil at 100°C (212°F), sometimes called the summer classification.
If there is a number followed by the letter W (SAE 20W) it means the lubricant falls within the viscosity band for 20 weight oil at -18°C (0°F), sometimes called the winter classification.
There is a band or range of acceptable viscosity for each viscosity weight or grade at each temperature. Sometimes liquid lubricants meet both the lower winter and the higher summer viscosity requirements, and carry numbers such as SAE 10W-30. SAE 10W-30 means that at -18°C (0°F) the oil viscosity falls within the 10 weight band, and at 100°C (212°F) the oil viscosity falls within the 30 weight band. Such lubricants are called multi-viscosity lubricants, and are made by adding specially selected VI improvers to 10 weight oil.
"
Another great site, KEWengineering.co.uk has this chart to show the temperature grade relationships between SAE 5W, SAE 40, and SAE5W40
My kitchen is never going to be -18c, and I hope this little N50 never sees 100C !!
Thanks for that . . . I'd wondered what temp "W" is associated with. So it's -18c or 0°F.
I didn't actually get time to look around on bobsyouruncle's site, or whatever it is . . . bobistheoilguy.com - but there's really a lot of info there.
That last link on my post above has a pretty good discussion of that too :
Motor Oil Viscosity Grades Explained in Layman's Terms
http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/
Having said all that . . . what to do ?
I was going to use my Kal-Gard SAE20 motorcycle fork oil - w/ molybdenum - but shied away from that because I couldn't bring myself to put black oil on that wick.
So I have some SAE30 hydraulic jack oil, took out the wick, and put a few drops in there just to hold it over.
It was pretty dry and probably hasn't been oiled in a million years.
I doubt the SAE30 is really going to cause any problems.
I think it's just a sleeve/bushing type bearing in there.
When I get the right thing I can flush it out.
Curious, what are you thinking of ?
I have yet to disassemble this guy, so I don't know what sort of condition it is. For the motor bearings and everything, i will probably use this:
http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/tools/degreasers-lubricants/lubricants-food-grade/tri-flow-synthetic-food-grade-oil-iso-68-1-4-oz-tube?utm_source=go...
For the grease I will probably use the mobil gearbox grease spec'd per Hobart.
I've actually contacted mixed up jake to see if they'd like to do a sort of vintage resto collab on it.
The Hobart EDDOUGH-ALU005 arrived, and is almost exactly 5/8" longer like you guys said! I will mix up some dough (even though I do not have an oven in the homewood suites... hmm, i wonder if i tip the girl who makes breakfast if she'd bake a loaf of bread i make up and then leave it in my room while i'm at work.. hahahaha!!!
I will make a video of it kneading up some dough, and maybe you guys can tell me if everything sounds / looks good??
I also ordered the hobart flat beater and the whisk from wasserstrom as well, so hopefully we will have the basic stuff on the way. I'm really also looking at the pasta press attachment as well as the traditional pasta roller and ravioli maker..
SO MANY ATTACHMENTS TO GET, OMG, it's like a choose your own adventure!!!!!!
This thing works a squillion times better than the KNS256BDH! Especially for small amounts of dough like I have been testing with. It kneads like a boss, but does seem like it starts to climb up the dough hook just a little bit. I didn't notice any climbing with the 256BDH.
I have NO idea what I'm doing! Seriously! Is my girlfriend going to be just as lost with one of these mixers?
I also had the chance to whip up some eggs. OMG. wow. this thing is like cheating. haha.
My reconditioned n-50 makes a bit of noise on fast speed ,if I pull the shift lever gently toward 2nd speed the noise is reduced a great deal . It is a newer model with the large on/off and shift plate , is there an adjustment that can be made , the machine looks the same as your machine breadman. I rarely use speed 3 but would adjust it if it were not a teardown issue. G Gage
:)
heck yeahhhhhhh
After a wonderful conference call with MixedUpJake, I've decided to move forward with that project as well! This n50 is going to get the full on Hobart /MixedUpJake retro refurb done to it, complete witha custom paint job and what not... Can't wait to share details with it...
Well, I guess I should post that the mixer has arrived at MixedUpJake / Hobart! They have received it two days after I shipped it! Go UPS! I sent it along with the pastry knife, aluminium spiral hobart dough hook, aluminium hobart flat beater , and a stainless steel bowl.
I asked them to please have Hobart Technician go over it and adjust it for use with the flat beaters etc so that nothing hits, and if necessarry, get any new hardware/components/genuine hobart bowls/etc in order to make it as good as it can be. The last thing I want to do is break this pastry knife!!
The concept for now is going to be kept secret, but as the date moves closer I will share it with you guys :) :) :)
Some hooks, whisks and blades are interchangeable with the bowl-lift, narrow bowl 'heavy duty' or 'professional' KA's. The bowl itself is too. However, your mileage will definitely vary - and with the relatively modest price of the proper dough hook (ED-ALU005), whisk and beater, you might as well get them - they really are delightfully solid chunks of aluminium! The catalog I linked to below also lists the correct part numbers for the attachments.
There is a plastic space in the bowl lift mechanism, in the column of the mixer (part illustrated as number 32, on page 6, 00-241-764, arm - bowl lift) as seen at this parts catalog: http://hobart.co.kr/manual_pdf//022.pdf
I don't know how long it's been plastic, but it doesn't really have any bearing on the rest of the mixer, and seems appropriately engineered for its location and purpose. There is no perceived cheapness or weakness in an N50!
@ breadman_nz (or anyone else actually)
When you did your rebuild, did you notice any ball bearings in the machine ?
I have some kind of noise in my N-50 that sounds very much like a dry ball bearing.
( However when the machine is really working hard you actually don't hear it because there is enough back pressure or force on the gear train to take up any slack, thus there's virtually no vibration that would be creating noise. )
Otherwise it's pretty loud, but the machine does run well and gets all three speeds.
Back there when we were having the grease and oil discussion I pushed some of the "flung" grease in the gearbox back on to the gears themselves, but that didn't seem to stop that dry-bearing type noise. I thought all or almost all of the bearings were sleeve bearings.
Also I regreased the plantetary gears.
I think either I'm going to have to buy some grease and really fill up the gearbox, or take the whole thing apart and find out what's running dry.
Btw, that gearbox is really supposed to be filled up with grease ?
Any thoughts ?
There are no ball bearings, only sleeve bearings.
Mine makes a little rattling noise like dry bearings, but I don't worry about it too much, especially since all looked well when I was last in there a few weeks ago.
The rattle is probably due to slight maladjustment of the gears, or wear and tear of the gears, bearings or washers and spacers - will take a tear down and inspection and replacement of any worn parts and readjustment to factory specs. to be sure. The service manual gives a good sequence for adjusting the gears to minimise noise in each of the gears, but one of my adjusters is stuck, so I haven't bothered.
It's quite quick (like 5 minutes) to get the front half and rear half of the mixer apart to properly inspect and regrease (assuming nothing is seized). Grease capacity is listed in the manual as "20fl oz." of Darina #2 grease. To get it in there I'd recommend either a wooden spatula to poke it all the way down, or a grease gun with a flexible hose. It's a dry sump, so no oil, just lots of grease!
Thanks very much breadman !
That answered all my questions and more.
Mine is really making much too loud a rattling noise - as you say, probably an adjustment and/or needs more grease.
But since it doesn't sound like it's too big a deal to open it up, and I have the manual, I think I'll do it.
I've rebuilt a couple of auto transmissions before so hopefully I'm up to it.
Just like being a kid again and taking apart mom's toaster to see if I can get it back together again.
Hi kbarb-if you have the sevice manual would you care to share it ? I have a parts maual already .
PM me.
We were having that discussion back in October about grease . . . .
So I was looking to buy some KitchenAid grease (part# 4176597) on Amazon, but a reviewer there (the first review) recommends Tri-Flow Synthetic H1 Food Grease (Tri-Flow stock number TF22021).
See :
Amazon page for KitchenAid grease 4176597 - first review
Amazon page for Tri-Flow Synthetic Grease
The Triflow product is a PTFE (teflon) grease and the application is described as "Use on gaskets, O-rings, conveyors, sterilizer chains, slides, pool equipment, electric motors, water filters, and universal joints."
But I don't see anything there about gears, which endure higher forces.
I can't seem to find anything about it's wear resistance properties.
Any of you have any thoughts on that ?
It does seem like it might work.
Awesome rebuild here!
I have an N50, it's awesome. I use it for Pizza dough. Most likely will do some bread at some point as well.
Does anyonw know if this Ice Cream Maker attachment will work?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002IES80/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=savcenwitsen-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399369&creativeASIN=B0002IES80
I need to get mine apart to clean it out and regrease it. Is there a procedure outlined anywhere? The pix on Flikr didn't really help me figure out how to get it apart.
Sometmes it makes a little noise like it needs a gear lash adjustment, so I'd like to give it a clean, grease, and adjustment.
Yes, that mixer/attachment will almost certainly will fit an N50. Seems to get good reviews - if you get it for your N50, let us know how it goes - I might get one!
Send me a private message if you want the N50 service manual, but the basic procedure to get the front half off to allow proper regreasing is:
1. Unplug mixer
2. Remove the rear cover and take of the starter cage (4 small nuts)
3. Use a long shaft large flat blade screw driver to undo the 7 bolts holding the two halves of the mixer together.
4. Take off the side cover (the one the gear lever sticks out of)
5. Gently disengage the gear lever from the internal cam - it should be obvious how - and note how it goes back together
6. Now you can separate the two halves of the mixer body. Place a rag over the attachment hub and tap over the top of the hub with a rubber mallet, which should separate the two pieces (don't let it drop!).
7. Scoop out / wash out grease and replace with new stuff. If you're keen, by all means fiddle with the gears and washers.
8. Reassemble in reverse order
Good luck!
Thanx for that description. That's not at all how I thought it came apart!
I bought and installed the KA KICA0WH Ice Cream Maker attachment. Willmake some ice cream in the next few days.
Here's the Link.
http://youtu.be/ZC1TQ3GLhy8
I also posted a thread about The Ice Cream Maker
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/33701/hobart-n50-kitchenaid-ice-cream-maker-attachment-compatability
I have both a N-50G and a KitchenAid (Hobart) K5-A and will take some more accurate measurements to ascertain exactly why agitators are not compatible but bowls are.
I have deternimed the bowl lift pillars are in fact the same lenghts.
So it is either the bowl lift mechanish itself has a longer throw (range of travel) or the output shaft on the bottom of the planetry is positioned higher.
If I can actually find my Bosch laser level, I should be able to tell pretty easily by putting them side-by-side.
I've just reread the thread but I'm still unsure what bearing oil to use. I went with the Mobil Food Machinery Grease from Ebay but I'm still lost on what bearing oil to get any help would be great.
I use triflow, in my front and rear oil ports simply because I have it on hand. Seems to work just fine, I ber sewing machine oil would be great.
Are these ports just on certain models? I am looking everywhere and can't find any on mine? Thanks in advance! Sorry for the noob questions.
After my latest rebuild, I went with the Mobil FM222 foodgrease for the transmission grease. It's very close in appearance and feel to the Hobart grease, and seems to be doing the job just fine.
For the oil requirements e.g. the oil in the wick / rear motor bearing, just use 3 in 1 sewing machine oil, or 20w/50 - it's not really critical.
Greetings new member but long time lurker! Could someone show where is this wick people speak of? I just re packed new grease in mine but did not change or add any oil? Just greased shafts and bushings so now am worried that I should oil these instead? would like to get the motor and bearings oiled if need be. Thanks!!
When you take the rear end cover off, revealing the starter apparatus, you can't miss the string wick. It's sitting in a little bowl, just above the rear brass bearing. Apply a few drops of SAE30 motor oil or 80w gear oil to it (for more see the posts above: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/231188#comment-231188)
I thought that only the KA Commercial Model G had the lubricating wick at the back of the motor!
Nah - my 1980's N50 has that exact string wick.
Sure thing, send me a private message.
How do we private message in this forum? I'd like to message you to ask for the N50 service manual but I can't figure it out.
Thanks...
Hmmm....looks like the private message function is broken - at least on my broswer (Firefox 44.0, under linux). All I get is a blank page when I click on any username from these threads.
However, you can still post a PM by going to your messages, and sending a 'new message', and then searching for the username of the person you want to PM. I'm sure there used to be a single button / link to do this more easily.
PM sent to you....
I'm not able to view private messages either--when I click the link in the email I got that said I received a private message, it said "Access Denied - You Are Not Authorized to View This Webpage". I'm logged in...
I'm confused.
Should be fixed now. I emailed Floyd on your behalf.
You can Google it & send it to the printer like I did. Or go to Restaurant Supplies, look for the mixer there, scroll down a ittle & to the right, you should see it Follow the PDF & print it.
The shims are to minimise end play (or end 'float' as it's sometimes called). There shouldn't be any on the rotor, basically, but it still needs to turn freely. If you have no in-out play on your rotor, the shims are probably fine.
The shaft pin should tap out easily, although with the angle, it's a bit tricky to get a longer center punch into it. Either a) it's jammed in there tight or; b) you're hitting in the wrong (fat) tapered end. Try tapping on it from the other side. Also, remove the screw first and try loosening (or removing) the pinion gear, as the pin is to secure/stop the pinion from rotating on the rotor shaft, rather than holding it in place as such.
Re: the stator - yep, trying to get a local rewind sounds best if possible. Lord knows I've spent plenty on my N50 hobby! If the windings are bad, the motor will run weakly if at all, and may well have trouble getting started.
Hi All, Just bought a what I assume to be a very old N50. It looks like the one ratatouille posted above (same model # as well 4749). It does run a little rough, so I'm going to try cracking it open to take a look at the gearing. breadman_nz, I saw you have a copy of the service manual, could you PM that to me as well when you can?
FYI, I don't see any PM features on the site, but I just registered, so I'm assuming I need to be activated by the admin?
Thanks!
PM sent. Yeah - when I clicked on your username, it just brings up a bunch of blank boxes, with no option to "send this user a private message". Not sure if it's a setting on your account that needs to be tweaked or activated, or if we just don't know how to PM properly :)
Perhaps email / contact floydm who is the board admin.
It's much appreciated. Perhaps I need to send a few posts before it activates, I've seen message boards that do this. I better get posting!
Mike
Hi,
Saw your rebuild....very nice. I am going to acquire an N50 that needs some work. I was going to just repair it but I would to consider the powder coating. Can you share contact info for this service and cost?
Well worth powder coating it if you're already doing a thorough tear down and regrease - should look good for years!
It was a few years ago now, but I recall paying a couple hundred for the local powder coating shop to strip and coat all the external metal parts (base, column, starter motor cover, motor housing and transmission case). I'm in NZ though, so what I paid will be well different for you, I suspect!
Only minor caveat is that the powder coating affects the fit of a few parts, so you ll need to sand/remove it in a few places (e.g the column and bowl lift) - nothing major.
Go for it!
I anyone can part with a, N50 drip cup please let me know, or if you know of any source that has a reasonable price please also forward information.
So I recently purchased an old rugged looking N-50, plugged it in and got the buzz or hum that you wrote about. I took it apart, removed old grease, inspected the planetary, tumbler and agitator shaft unit and all gears look fine. Determined that the problem must be in the motor section, so started to take that side apart. Had some questions arise as I am working on it and that lead me to find your posting. Q1. started to remove the pinion gear and noticed that behind it was some cotton string, looks like cotton butchers twine, was this installed by the factory? Does it soak up oil? Q2. I have played with the rear start switch and I think that is the problem. I have plugged in the mixer and turned it on and looked to see if the start switch moves, it does not. How did you know your start switch was bad? What did you look for and is there a way to test it? I don't want to buy one if I don't have too, is it possible to just short the switch to see if the motor works? Q3. I found a copy of the service manual online it has 22 pages, is this the entire document? Thank you for your post and answers,
The hum problem may well not be in the motor section - if the transmission / gears are too tight, because for example you've got the wrong grease in there, the motor can't get rotating to start (and will hum).
If the contact points of the starter itself are wrongly gapped or dirty, the motor won't start (and will hum).
Q1: there is no string in that location, so someone has added something, or a fibre washer has gone seriously misshapen. There is a small bit of sting/wick in the start motor housing (where the starter switch is located), which is oiled to keep the oilite bearinglubed.
Q2: I don't actually think my start switch was bad now, more that the rotor was too far forward, and needed to be shimmed. I've copied this from my post above:
The location of the shim is at part #14 & 15 on this Hobart parts diagram: http://thesmartpartsestore.hobartservice.com/category/7926/motor-parts. Part numbers are WS-007-21 and/or WS-007-19.
As you hold the rotor in your left hand, the shim/washer slides onto the shaft of the rotor. The rotor then slides into place into the housing, and you secure it using the shaft pin, pinion gear and screw on the other side of the motor housing face i.e. the side which faces the transmission.
You need to find a shim/washer about the right thickness - too thick and the rotor won't turn freely. Too thin and there will be too much in-out/forward-back play in the rotor (there should be hardly any). Or you could order the official parts as listed above!
Q3: The 2002 service manual has 22 pages. You should be good.
I removed the motor from the stand and the gear case, shorted the power switch and the rear start switch. Plugged it in and it started to run after I gave the rotor shaft a spin with my hand. It ran well but I noticed that the case got really really hot. I took the stator out and it looks really charred.
I am now waiting on some grease to come in from my online order and I will reassemble it and see what happens when I add the load to the motor.
Do you have any experience working with a motor that is charred and over heating? Do I need a recoil or replacement?
Thanks for you sharing your experience.
Hmmm. I'd be worried about a charred motor that gets hot just running....sounds like too much resistance in the winding > heat. The case gets war, but it shouldn't get really, really hot after running for a few minutes with no load (i.e. disconnected from the transmission as you have done).
You can by new rotors / stators, but it'd be preferable given the cost to at least consult a local motor rewinder. Good luck!
A single phase induction motor which rotates only when it's started by hand has one or more problems with current supply to start-windings and/or the start-windings themselves.
The Hobart N50's motor is designed to start without the need of a capacitor, but the drawback is that its start-windings are quite fragile and may burn in few seconds if they are still powered after the rotor began to revolve (this is precisely the job of the centrifugal switch which cuts start-windings current, and should never be shorted in order to work reliably).
Would you take a picture of the rear of your stator please ?
If you are sure that all electrical connections are correctly done, then I'm afraid that you must take the stator apart and bring it to a rewind shop for a full rewinding ... :-/
question on the powdercoating, how did you get the motor out of the sleeve, or didnt you? service manual doesn't really say one way or another. i have my machine stripped ready for powdercoating just not sure on removing the stator from the casing.
You have to take the stator out of its housing prior to powdercoating. It's pretty simple to remove, just undo the small nuts on the long bolts which fix it to the housing. It may be a bit sticky to remove if it's been in there for years, but it should pull right out.
is there an easy way to get all the grease from the the gearbox, ive dug the majority of it out but i cant figure out how to degrease the remainder for power prep.
No easy way, sorry - that's why it's called elbow grease! Get in there with fingers & a rag and scoop it all out. Get into the nooks and crannies with a rag-wrapped screw driver or similar.
Finish with a solvent cleaner to get the residual grease off, although I suspect that would be part of the powder coating prep that the shop would do.
Thanks to all who have posted information on the N50. Just got done with a rebuild. This is how I came about the N50. Christmas 2014 our (23 year old) Kitchenaid 5 quart mixer broke down (the wife put cold butter to mix with sugar but won't own up to it). I replaced the armature and stator - problem solved, Christmas 2015 we decided to upgrade to an 8 quart Kitchenaid, got a great deal through work with Whirlpool partners. An ad for a broken N50 came up in February on C.L, best thing it was local. I offered our working 5 quart Kitchenaid plus $80 for a trade, the seller (very reasonable) agreed. I spent the next two months taking the N50 apart with help of the Fresh Loaf and parts schematic. I sand blasted the housing, base, and pedestal ($125). The failed part was the tumbler yoke, all the gears, armature, and stator were in excellent condition. For the re-assembly I added a circuit breaker, stainless steel socket head cap screws in place of the hex bolts, stainless Phillips head screws for the control plate, Mobil FM222 grease, and a beefy stainless steel accessory cover. Thanks to all! Still looking for another N50, I did enjoy the rebuild.
That is one sweet honey-nut restoration - great work!
The switch cover plat is a really interesting shape - I've never seen an 'L-shape' cutout like that. It's almost as though the transmission case is a different era from the motor housing. Do you know, from the serial number, when the mixer was made?
My personal sense of aesthetic suggests the decal should be higher on the gear lever side. Oh, and you've got a screw missing on the switch plate ;)
Again, great job!
I have been digging through the web and have not found another model with the "L" shape cut-out. I thought it was just another iteration. The switch plate does have an extra hole that the "L" shape housing does not have, thats why there is no screw there. The machine is running great! I will be offering this mixer up for sale, and offering another N50 that is in great shape, but the base could use a powder coat and I will be installing a new cord. Not sure if N50s came with a ground plug cord, or the cord was replaced with a non-ground plug cord. I am in the northern Illinois suburbs if anyone should be interested in one of these N50s. They will go up in about a week.
Just clarification in my post: I sandblasted the parts with free access to a sandblaster and cost to powder coat in Crystal Lake , Illinois was $125 for all the parts.
Where did you get the SS cover for the accessory take off?
I modeled the two parts on CAD and have a connection to a machine shop which already uses stainless. I can post the detail drawings or can get an estimate from a paying machine shop as well.
WOW, OK. That makes sense now. Don't bother with the machine shop quote, it's not that big a deal to me. I thought maybe you found something to re purpose for it.
You had the Labels made? Or are they decals?
They are decals purchased from Ebay.
Hello all,
If anyone can please help locating a pdf, bitmap, any other type of file that contains the old vintage Hobart logo label. For my first rebuild I was able to buy the rectangular labels from Ebay. With the 2nd rebuild I would like to stay true to the original but I will need to have the label printed but need a source file. I did locate a rebuild on beevo.org but there is no contact info. Not sure if the poster is on the fresh loaf. See link for pictures of his rebuild. Any help on the label is greatly appreciated.
http://www.beevo.org/HobartN50/
Didn't take long just was not doing the proper search. I found a file with logo, will attach it here if anyone needs it.
Hello,
Unfortunately these labels are not compliant at all with the original vintage logotype ! Please fell free to send me a picture of the original one and I will reproduce it for you as a vectorized file.
Regards
Flormont,
Here are the pictures. Your help is greatly appreciated.
Flormont,
Here are the pictures. Your help is greatly appreciated.
Hello and thank you for these photos. But please could you send me a pm with the 2nd one enlarged ? For a nice job I really need to zoom over all tiny details :)
Regards
Hello, I was wondering if I could get a copy decal file you remade to original specs, the picture above is the only one I can find of the vintage style, thank you for your help.
Brian F,
You can have the label file. I had to order a minimum quantity of labels, since I have some extra (if you are in the states) I could send you two labels for $6.00 to help cover the cost of the labels and mailing. If you are not in the states, let me know where you at? I am sure we can work something out. Same offer for anyone else that is looking for vintage labels.
Awesome, sounds great, I am in southern California. Please send an email to whitedoverestoration@gmail.com and we can work out shipping location and payment. Thank you very much.
Excellent job.
First of all: there is more involved in the dis-assembly of the N50 than the Kitchenaids. The Kicthenaids are very simple to work on and you take it apart in in ten minutes, clean the grease out in 30 minutes, then re-grease / assemble it together in 20 minutes. I can turn my planetary shaft clockwise by hand and also get a clicking sound (I think this is normal - others please confirm). I think a gear is just ratcheting by another gear by turning the planetary shaft by hand this, but has no ill effect. The planetary shaft turns counter-clockwise under power which is the intended normal operation. If this is all that you are experiencing I would suggest to leave it alone and not dis-assemble it. If you do decide to go through the be-build you will need common tools: box wrench, flat and Phillips screwdriver, hammer and punches, circ-ring tool and a gear puller to separate the rear shaft from the armature. It would also help to have the Hobart part number list and schematic handy, post it note pad and baggies to bag and tag all the parts with contents and part number and number the bags then check off the part number list as you bag and tag parts.
Keep us updated, will help as much as I can. What part of the country (or which country) are you in?
Regarding the beater touching the bottom of the bowl: Your shaft may have dropped down due to slippage or a failed component. You should not have to take the gear transmission apart to fix this. You will need to work on the planetary assembly and inspect your parts there. This will require accessing the six or eight screws that goes through the motor housing and gear housing to get to the planetary housing.
Any experience of HL6 vs N50?
...a couple of other possibilities for the beater touching the bottom of the bowl are a worn notch on the beater itself, allowing it to sit a little low. And we're presuming the bowl is the correct one. Or that the bowl lift isn't lifting a little too high.
In my experience you don't need a gear puller to fully disassemble the N50, but other than that I agree with givemethedough.
In the southern hemisphere N50's also rotate counter-clockwise, unless your starter switch is somehow out of adjustment, in which case I have observed my N50 rotate the opposite way(!). My N50 also clicks when the shaft is rotated counterclockwise. It's not a worry, and nor is a touch of gear lash unless you really want to get jiggy with shims.
@JohnCa: PM me if you want a PDF of the service manual
Thanks
We so need a disassembly Video!
(See post from breadman_NZ from June 8, 2016) I re-posted my reply, was not sure if it was seen or not?
I have been digging through the web and have not found another model with the "L" shape cut-out. I thought it was just another iteration. The switch plate does have an extra hole that the "L" shape housing does not have, that is why there is no screw there. The machine is running great! I will be offering this mixer up for sale, and offering another N50 that is in great shape, but the base could use a powder coat and I will be installing a new cord. Not sure if N50s came with a ground plug cord, or the cord was replaced with a non-ground plug cord. I am in the northern Illinois suburbs if anyone should be interested in one of these N50s. They will go up in about a week.
Hello,
There is no big mystery about this "L" shaped plate ... :-) Since the N50 mixer is made since many decades, if you accurately look at the variations across the time then you will notice that the left-upper corner of the motor & gear housings have been redesigned.
Old design, small control plate :
New design, large control plate :
In conclusion, your mixer had some thing wrong with the gearbox or gearcase and the original one has been replaced with an older one. After this mix, the control plate has been machined in order to fit the old-designed gear housing.
Flormont,
Thanks for showing both. Your reply makes sense, it may explain why the transmission (except for the shifter yoke) was in excellent condition. Even though it is from an older model it may have seen very little use. The mating surfaces between transmission and motor housing are so perfect I figured they were built for each other from the start..
The fresh loaf is an excellent website, a wealth of information. Thanks again!
You're welcome :)
It seems that many parts of the Model G / early N50 / late N50 are interchangeable, indeed.
However I don't know exactly why the motor & gear housings have been redesigned with more curved surfaces. My guess is to reduce manufacturing costs, or maybe to make the cleaning easier.
Regards
Just posted an N50 for sale (video is also posted), please spread the word if you know of anyone that is in the market. Thanks!
If you can stomach the quite amazing price of $105 for a new drip cup:
http://thesmartpartsestore.hobartservice.com/category/18526/planetary
EDIT Jan 2020: Ouch - the cup is now $176 !!
That is quite a steep price, I would rather buy groceries. I will seek other alternatives, I will keep all of you posted if I am successful. Thanks!
For some reason I am unable to PM you. I would be interested in your cad drawing for the stainless nose cone and plug. It is a very cool mod.
Did you fill in the vent hole in the front of the machine? I am curious what the point is of it. I would believe that there is ample space around the entire base for air to enter the column.
Thanks
The vent hole is need, if you should plug in an attachment and then try remove it my guess is you could get it out but it might create a seal in the inside of the hub. Should I just post the drawings here?
I can't seem to PM either without posting my full email address in the open. I will dig the drawings out. In the meantime if any of you guys are interested in bidding the Red N50, its up for auction right now (on that famous four letter site that starts with an "e"). Need to fund an anniversary trip, there will be other rebuilds to come but only one 25th anniversary. "Life is journey, not a destination" - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Hello! Just wondering if you can tell me anything about the rarity of the C100 in red? I see you listed your red N50 on that auction site, so I was hoping you had knowledge on things of that nature... Cheers!
Hello, The red C100 is not mine. There is red N50 on Xbay that appears to be a spray can job (my guess) certainly not powder coated. Its selling for an arm and a leg, I can't even command that price for a powder coated rebuild. My first red rebuild is on here if you scroll up. I did buy a red factory red N50 (that is pictured here with other rebuilds) through an online XXXgo site. The colors are far and few between than the common battleship gray. I am holding on to the red N50 for good, it is in excellent condition. Hope this helps answer your question.
I will figure a way without posting our emails to the world.
The hole I was speaking about is the one in the front of the base. At least mine has one with s brass collar . It's about 1/2 inch in diameter and I have no idea what the purpose it is there for.
Good luck on the sale and trip
Hi all,
I've been reading all your Hobart N50 restoration experiences and I've decided to launch my own project. I expect to give one of those real beauties to my wife ;) Please pardon my bad English as I'm from France!
I've searched and found two old used Hobart here in France. I've asked to the sellers to send me a video. Here is the first that was sent me: https://youtu.be/ds90bQfuWcE (I'm still waiting for the second to compare)
I'm not an expert, and it seems to me that that particular copy has a strange sound when comparing to other videos. What would you say? Do you think that this copy is damaged and not worth buying?
If you think that it can be fixed, I think that I will offer to the seller something like ~450€. Does it sound like a good price for you?
Thanks very much in advance for your help, I can't wait to get my hands on a good copy of those and start restoring it!
Sounds OK to me and looks and starts smoothly.The noise in second and 3rd speed sounds like gear lash, which is nothing major and may be able to be adjusted to reduce. 1st speed sounds good.
It's definitely an older model (pre-1980's), but that doesn't matter, as parts are still available.
As to whether it's worth 450 euro, is hard to say from the other side of the world - not sure what the demand-supply of these is like over there!
I agree the motor sounds fine. The other noise is from the transmission, additionally the grease that it has may not be at its prime anymore and not as agile as fresh grease. I am sure you will hear less of the back lash once you have replaced the grease. As for price; having a bowl and attachments should be a factor in the askn price.
Hi @breadman_nz and @givemethedough, Thank you so much for your fast answers! I'm impressed!
I'll send to the seller a 400€ proposition. Seems like a good price regarding the general state of it.
I'll keep you updated on my project ;)
Bonsoir Limezy,
Pas grand chose à ajouter aux réponse que nos amis vous ont déjà donné :-)
Le bruit constaté pourra surement être atténué par une révision de la boite de vitesses et une tentative de réglage du jeu fonctionnel entre les différents pignons, mais il n'y a rien de sûr pour ce modèle vraiment très ancien qui a surement déjà pas mal d'heures de vol (l'ancienneté se voit bien à la forme général des carters de tête, ainsi que les arrêtes saillantes de la colonne). Quoi qu'il en soit cela ne l'empêchera pas de continuer à tourner, le plus important étant que le moteur démarre de façon franche et systématique (il faudra bien vérifier que le coupleur centrifuge est encore en état de fonctionner longtemps).
Pour le prix proposé, j'espère que cela suppose que le batteur est complet avec tous ces accessoires cependant. Prenez garde si vous envisagez une restauration ou un dépannage, les pièces détachées Hobart coutent très cher chez nous en france, hélas. Bon succès dans votre acquisition.
Préface J'utilise un traducteur en ligne.
Salutations à nos amis français. Vous envisagez d'ajouter un cordon d'alimentation muni d'une fiche de mise à la terre et d'ajouter un disjoncteur pour empêcher le moteur et le stator de surcharger. Comme mentionné dans le dernier post remplacement composants sont très chers de Hobart. Dans un sujet non lié; Je suis reseaching hébergement à Paris. Où pensez-vous que je peux passer 6 jours sur le budget d'un travailleur. Toutes les suggestions sont les bienvenues. Je vous remercie.
Hi Givemethedough,
Thanks very much for your comment.
Concerning the circuit breaker, do you have any experience with adding one to an Hobart N50? Could you send me photos or schemes? I'm not sure that everything will fit under the carter.
For your stay in Paris, you can search on AirB** they have a lot of good offers! If you're on a budget, you can find hotels on cities around Paris like Versailles (south) or Asnières (north) and use the suburb trains.
Limezy,
Yes I have added breaker switches to the N50. The photos will show the location, the specifications are: 6amp (you could go to 4amp but I was concerned with false tripping), push button thermal, 32v DC (not sure what your wall sockets are putting out), Reset method: Type 3 manual reset, Mount type: 1/4" quick connect blade.
Bonjour Flormont,
C'est un plaisir de savoir que d'autres compatriotes arpentent ce forum et utilisent des batteurs Hobart! Puis-je vous demander comment je peux contrôler le coupleur centrifuge lors de l'achat? Ce batteur semble effectivement assez ancien mais il a été très peu utilisé, d'après le vendeur. Il ne lui manque que le crochet, ce qui ne semble pas être un très gros problème vu l'offre que l'on trouve sur internet.
Avez-vous vous-même une expérience en restauration de batteur Hobart? Je suis intéressé par des retours, notamment sur le thermolaquage (faut-il boucher certains trous, donner des consignes particulières... ) et sur le câblage électrique (Givemethedough me propose de mettre un disjoncteur et une fiche terre... Y a-t-il assez de place dans le carter?)
Concernant votre mise en garde, je pense faire plus une révision complète assortie d'un sablage - thermolaquage qu'un dépannage. Je n’achèterai pas de robot qui ne tourne pas parfaitement à l'allumage, ce qui m'obligerait à chercher des pièces détachées...
Hello again,
If you are referring to the on and off switch and speed lever, then yes I have seen where these two components do not align as when they were new. In order for the on and off switch to properly move there is a sheet metal piece that must slide into a cut out in the speed shifter. The intent of this mechanism is to prevent shifting speeds while the mixer is operating. In the pictures below I have added a new alternate switch and eliminated the sliding sheet metal component. The only thing with this arrangement I will have to remember not to switch speeds while the mixer is in operation or I may do damage to the transmission.
Hi all,
Please allow me to ask another question about the Hobart that I'm likely to buy.
The seller sent me a photo of the identification plate http://de-ruffray.fr/index.php/s/4eW2k6fCKajE55T
That plate indicates: ML16472-M. Do you know that model? I can't find any of that reference on https://my.hobartcorp.com/resourcecenter/Pages/PartsCatalogs.aspx or on http://thesmartpartsestore.hobartservice.com/store/shopforparts.
Thanks!
Hi all,
I'm quite embarrassed to beg your help again!
I've recieved the video from the second Hobart seller here in France. I'm a bit helpless because it looks better and newer (the first one was from 64, that one from 85) but it has a horrible sound...Here are the links:
Hobart "1"
Photos: http://de-ruffray.fr/index.php/apps/gallery/s/NS0g1ltQWmJzqQ8, Video: https://youtu.be/ds90bQfuWcE
Hobart "2"
Photos: http://de-ruffray.fr/index.php/apps/gallery/s/w7IDxu9fU8UuqaU, Video: https://youtu.be/M91pJxwfoYw
Which of both would you advise me to buy? Thank you very very much for your help!
The second, newer Hobart also has gear lash noise. Similar comments to those above i.e. it doesn't affect the function of the mixer, and can likely be adjusted out with shims and using the adjustment screws as per the service manual.
Difficult to know which of the two to get - but in reality either would be fine. The older N50 may look older, but that's just cosmetic and could easily be tidied up with a fresh powder coating.
Both of these look like good machines, but I like Hobart "1". As long along as they are operational is the first order, which ever one you can get the best price on.
Hi all,
I've just bought the "1st Hobart" from my list just above. It should arrive home within two or three days! Waiting for it, I have bought some pin punches as advised, found and red the official service manual from Hobart. In addition of that, I've studied the photos from "Zug" on Flickr. Really interesting! However, I hope that mine will not be on such bad shape inside...
I have yet some questions before jumping into my restoration project.
The first one is about grease and gears: when I'll open and remove all the old grease from my Hobart, how can I do to preserve all those metal parts from rusting? What liquid or solvent can I use to help me put all that old grease out? I've seen that you have been searching a lot about greases. Could you help me find which one buy?
The second question is about powdercoating: I've seen on Zug's photos that there is a need for some part to plug and mask before sending to the powdercoating. Is that really necessary? If yes, do someone here have photos of that process or how can I do that?
Thanks in advance for your really helpful advices!
Yes remove all the grease and use zip-lock plastic to identify everything. Unless you scrub each part with a de-greasing agent you will not remove all the grease completely from the gears. There will always be a thin film of residue on all of the parts, you should not be concerned with rust. If you still have concerns brush them with oil, which you have to remove before re-assembly. On the fresh loaf there is discussion on the grease the most common are Shell Darina #2 (this is specified in the service manual) and Mobil FM222 grease, I went with the Mobil FM222. I will be preparing an N50 for sandblasting and powder coat during the next 3 weeks, I will take pictures to show you the metal plates and bolts I used for masking during sandblasting and powder coating.
Hi Givemethedough,
Thanks very much for your answers! I've bought two Mobil FM222 foodgrease tubes (2x400g). Hope this will do!
I'm glad that you are also working on the refurbishing of another Hobart. I'll be very pleased to see your photos as you progress!
Limezy,
I have dis-assembled an N50. The attached photos show screws that I am inserting to protect from sandblasting and powder coat. I also have some plates for the transmission and motor housing. There was a small hole in the pedestal that was for grounding, I have enlarged this hole and will still a circuit breaker in its location. I will ground in a more hidden location. I will be adding other pictures before sandblasting.
Hi Givemethedough, thank you very much for your message! Could you please upload bigger files?
Hi Givemethedough,
Thank you very much for your photos. For the moment I'm still in the process of disassembling my Hobart.
You can see pictures on that link: http://de-ruffray.fr/index.php/apps/gallery/s/4ui44fTV1DuFDgX
I'm a little stuck right now because I could not manage to remove the taper pin seen on that photo: http://de-ruffray.fr/index.php/s/lue1n3uVE0FmQTe. I've tried with a hammer and a pin punch but without sucess. I'm afraid to damage the bearing of the shaft. Is there any technique for that one? Does it have a side to push it out or in?
Thank you for your help!
Arnaud.
Remember these are tapered pins. You might be hammering it from the large end. You need to examine it very closely and discern which is the smaller diameter of the pin and hammer that end out. This applies for the other tapered pins in the other locations as well. If you attempt to hammer the pin from large diameter, yes you will damage or break a shaft. I encountered this on the planetary shaft pin where the previous owner(s) attempted to extract the tapered pin form the incorrect side.
Thanks again for this piece of advice. I think I was hammering it on the right way, but I will try to examine it closely.
Please let me ask a second question: I've just removed the rotor. Do you have any technique to remove the stator? It seems like a delicate thing because the stator is really stucked in there?
Yes, I have a solution. I just did this last night. I am changing the oil on my truck right now. When I finish will make hand drawn sketch and post it.
Limezy,
Please see the drawing below. After you have removed the transmission housing and nuts that retain the stator in place using the arrangement specified in the drawing hold the mixer down resting on the pedestal on a block of wood tall enough to suspend the motor housing off the table. Ensure that the motor housing is elevated sufficiently so when you strike the thinner block of wood you (placed on the top of the motor housing) you will avoid damaging anything else. You will have to strike the block of wood with mallet or hammer with about 5 to 6 kilos of force. I did this procedure last night and struck the thin piece of wood about 8 to 12 times then the stator core drooped out of the motor housing. Before you start make sure you place orientation marks on the motor housing and stator to ensure you are assembling its original position. I don't know if I have discovered a keen procedure here or I am just to green and there is an easier solution out there. If there is please do chime in.
Thanks givemethedough for sharing your technique in taking the stator out from its case.
But as for me I feel safer to use a puller specifically mounted in order to gently extract any recalcitrant stator. I use this french-made model which has thin jaws able to go deep in the motor's housing and to grip the rear of the stator body without injuring the copper windings :
Of course this is a "luxurious" solution, since I already got this expensive puller in the past for other needs.
Regards
Bonjour Flormont,
Quel modèle d'extracteur avez-vous utilisé? Êtes-vous en région parisienne? Si oui seriez-vous prêt à me le prêter / louer? Cela semble être en effet la solution la plus simple et la moins dangereuse pour le rotor!
Arnaud.
Oui biensur, c'est le modèle Facom U42 avec un étrier adapté au diamètre du stator du N50. Je ne suis pas sur paris mais on peut s'arranger par correspondance si vous m'accordez un peu de délai s'il vous plait.
Le problème de stator du N50, c'est que son plan de bobinage est spécifique et que la hauteur des bobines est très faible par rapport à un moteur ordinaire ... ainsi, si vous le grillez ou l'endommagez, alors il peut s'avérer compliqué de trouver l'artisan bobineur qui accepte de vous le refaire à prix décent.
Cordialement
re-bonjour Flormont.
Quand pensez-vous pouvoir être en mesure de me l'envoyer en prêt? Ce serait en effet avec plaisir! Avez vous une idée du prix des frais de port? Car si ça se trouve ce sera moins cher d'acheter l'outil que de payer le port aller retour!
Merci d'avance!
Joebart,
Very nice equipment, please share the details on the color and painting source. Where did you get the N50 thumbscrew? Don't see the picture of the puller.
Hey Givemethedough,
Thanks for the kind words. A local body shop near Mystic CT does quite a bit of show quality paint jobs on custom vehicles, etc. He took this on as a novelty and enjoyed the work! The paint color is a Range Rover caliente red...I think? The paint , base coat and clear coats are all PPG products.
Ah....the thumbscrew . A departure from the purist for the N50 in terms of historical accuracy. I liked the chrome plated brass thumbscrew on the old food chopper so I sourced a Hobart duplicate on ebay, ground off the extra large thread, drilled and tapped the thumb portion and installed a threaded, stainless steel all thread to match the N50 threaded hole. A lot of work for a thumbscrew, however I was not a fan of the plastic thumbscrews available as a replacement. I also had a solid brass plug machined with the proper taper, etc. Polished it up with a mirror finish to "pop" against the red body of the mixer. Again....not accurate, but cool looking.
The puller I commented on is the one displayed in the previous post.....just agreeing with the post........sorry for the confusion.....
Congrats givemethedough on another rebuild. What are those plates made of ? Do you blastasy, coat and bake with those attached?
I found an easy way to remove paint and grease. Boiling water on a turkey fryer with zep purple cleaner, some soap and water, Boiled all parts to remove grease and then swapped out with fresh concoction to strip the paint off the rest of the parts. Be aware that it is a little messy to clean up but I would do it again.
Followed up with a nice hot bath of dawn soap.
Took all day to do all the parts, but I was doing yard work.
I may also be looking for a shift lever if I can't straighten one mine out.
PM is not working for me
Nicelmore,
They are steel .100" thick (2.54mm) and the small plates for the switch cover they are aluminum. They do not have to be that exact thickness as long as they do not flex when the bolts are tightened. The process is assembled the plates, sand blast, then powder coat and bake with the plates in place.
I was not able to PM as well but Floyd did fix something and now I do have PM capability.
Hi!
thanks for all those informations!
I have another question: I have little orifices on the front and back parts of my Hobart. Those seem to be there to put some oil in the bearings. They seem to be present only on the older Hobart models. Have you got them? Could you tell me how I can manage them for the sanding and coating?
Thanks in advance !
Funny you should ask....I am facing that dilema as well. Inside on the rear armature bearing (really a brass bushing) it is cross drilled and has a wool felt about 1/4 inch or so below the armature and above it.
The old rear cove had a oil drip spot that you could depress and put a drop of oil in.
I do not know what is used on the new ones. I do know that the felt pad is is still a valid part number 00-511813 1/4 x 1 inch wicking is a valid part number but not currently available in the US. Real wool felt is readily available and very cheap.
In preparation for painting they can be removed if your machine is apart or simply mask off if not. The rear one just pops out from the bottom. Be careful not to sand the little steel ball or get anything in there. It is suspended by a very little spring.
I am most likely going to eliminate the one on the rear cover and take the rear cover off once a year and put a few drops of oil on the wicking. I believe that is what happens on the new ones.
The front one is a little tougher to get out and needs a very small screw driver to sort of chisel it up carefully to remove it.
Hope that helps. Post some pictures of your project.
I was able to extract both of them. The rear oil port can be tapped out from the opposite side. This is the procedure I used to extract the front oil port: Insert a screw driver through the inside of the housing, make sure the flat on the screw driver rests on the body of the oil port, then with a hammer hit the screw driver on the side. You are using the screw driver as a pry bar from the inside, it will not take much effort for the oil port to come out.
Hi,
Perfect technique I was able to push it on the first try.
I am now almost ready for the sanding, the last (but not least) piece to take apart is the rotor. I've bought a Facom U42, waiting for it to arrive!
That tool will do the trick. I used a modified battery terminal puller. Remember to post your progress. Pictures of a rebuild are much nicer to look at than my failed pretzel or pizza dough.......
Hi Nickelmore, You'll find some pictures on that link: http://de-ruffray.fr/index.php/apps/gallery/s/4ui44fTV1DuFDgX
I'll keep that link updated as the restauration will progress!
Looks great, that thing looks very good inside. Very nice camera! I will keep looking for your updates.
Very nice progress! I am curious about the planetary on picture number 18. I am diss-assembling the N50 model number 4749 and the cavity on the left side of the planetary is filled with what looks like a lead counter weight. On your picture number 18 the counter weight is not present. I am wondering if it was no longer needed or because the nature of it being lead it was no longer put in. Does anybody know?
Mine has some in it. I would speculate that the castings on the mine is pot metal the weight may be put in there to balance the assembly. Similar to balancing a crankshaft.or a wheel.
I cant tell from the picture if something is in that cavity or not. He also has some orange colored shims in place that I did not have on mine.
Hi all,
I can confirm you that there is indeed a counter weight on the cavity of my planetary. It is not very visible on the picture 18 but it is there! I've tried to put the center of the planetary on a pencil and it is very well equilibrated. Everything seems normal ;)
Hi All,
Could you please confirm that the N50 bowl and tools are all dishwasher safe?
I've received my quotation for the powdercoating, good news it's doable so I'll send my Hobart pieces on Friday!
Limezy,
The bowl and wire whip are safe for the dishwasher. The heavy duty cast paddle I do not have any experience with, as for my dough hook (acquired used); my guess this is a different grade of stainless because mine had spots on it. My guess these were from a dishwasher. I buffed the spots away and sanded the dough hook with emery cloth.
Thanks for your answer!
I'm still waiting for my pieces to be powdercoated. They should arrive next week. I'll publish photos as soon as I get them ;)
I will need to replace some of the washers (45, 46, 47 on that link: http://thesmartpartsestore.hobartservice.com/category/26229/transmission).
Do you know in which material they are built? Can I use every material if I find washers with the right thickness? Is there any place where I could by some?
Thanks in advance for your help!
Limezy,
I would suggest using thrust washers. Thrust washers are usually made of stainless steel or brass. The true material appears to be a non-metallic hard fiber. It would be best if you find the fiber washer, if not use the stainless or brass washers. The materials not to use would be aluminum or carbon steel. If you are not in a hurry I could place the order with Hobart for you and we can figure out the mail later?? Hope is helps.
As giveme said, great suggestion, Those have to be "fitted" for proper lash on those gears. Why are yours missing? Do you know what thickness was on there? A place that repairs electric motors may have them, or an industrial supply house like grainger.
Those are fitted in .00X increments and added together to make up the space needed for proper lash.
Hi,
Thanks both for your help!
I need those washers because I have unfortunatly damaged them while trying to remove the tapper pin...
I could not find any in fiber, I will try with brass or stainless washers. Thanks for your proposition for placing an order, yet I do not think that those little pieces need such complicated logistics!
Hi again,
Why would'nt you recommend carbon steel? I can't find any other material than carbon steel for those very thin washers (0.1mm - 0.3mm - 0.5mm)
http://www.promeca.com/rondelle-dajustage-en-acier-p4871-fr.html
http://www.tdifasteners.fr/fr/rondelles-d-ajustage-acier/38379-rondelle-de-calage-d-ajustage-din-988-18mm-x-25mm-x-01-mm-acier-st2k60.html
I recently restored 2 N50s and experienced missing steel and fiber washers and broken taper pins. I had been disappointed with smartpartstore (hobart online parts store) regarding very expensive parts and shipping rates that was unusually very expensive (ex. drip cup shipping was $18 for such a lightweight and small object) and adding insult to injury took 2 weeks!!!
When the parts arrived, I started assembling it together and broke one of the taper pins. Upon looking at Hobart online parts again, you have to order "minimum quantity" for generic things (taper pins, washers, screws, etc). And surprisingly again, it would be $18 to ship the minimum of 5 taper pins!!! And the taper pin sizes varies within the N50 so I wont even be able to replace the other ones! Im sure this will even be more ridiculous if you live outside US.
The good side about Hobart parts online is that they give some of the description (like the thickness). If you live in a big city and have access to industrial hardware shops (not HD or lowes type), give them a chance first BUT bring the broken item to get the exact match. If the parts are missing, it will be tougher but still possible. It'll just cost you inconvenience. I had luck with my local hardware store.
Of course, if you live outside the US and in a rural area, then this option is more an inconvenience.
Remember that Hobart does not manufacture these hardwares and fasteners.
Hi everyone,
Here are some news of my project; I've reveived all my pieces powdercoated, they look really great.
Sadly, I had some sand in my threadings since the sanding... I had to buy some taps to remove everything in because otherwise the screws were blocked and I could have damaged everything ! I've bought 6-32, 10-24, 12-24 and 5/16-18 from the UNC standard as I had only European taps... (damned American Imperial standards... Why don't you use the metric system!).
So here am I, waiting for my taps to be deliverd in France :)
Looks excellent, on my first rebuild I threaded screws into the exposed holes to keep sand and paint out. Keep us updated on your progress. My parts are not back yet, I chose a copper color with a metallic base. I have come across another N50, I have been swapping parts with the N50 I am currently rebuilding. It appears that the stator is dead, prior to this I did a swap with the armature and rear starter switch. The problem follows the stator, if anyone can part with a stator or has any leads on where I can find one please share. I did find a person who had a stator rebuilt in Sparks, Nevada, still waiting for a reply.
Nice score on finding another dead N50. Limezy, as gmtd said using spare hardware to block the holes is what i do as well. Although I do understand that it may be a challenge finding the USA threaded hardware. In our stores we have a "metric" section for nuts and bolts. Do you have an "American" section for bolts in your hardware stores?
My wife has finally picked our pale green powder for a color so I should be moving ahead in a week or so.
Pale Green...
How about that '57 Chevy Belair Light Green?
http://www.ssrfanatic.com/forum/attachments/f6/22512d1167767767-what-have-you-owned-57-chevy-sm.jpg
Hi all,
I've received my taps, and the rebuild goes pretty well! I've managed to remove all the sand from my threadings.
I have finished the base, the lift system, the engine, and the gearbox. The last thing to do is the planetary. Here is my question: should I pack the planetary with grease like the gearbox?
As usual, some photos of the work: http://de-ruffray.fr/index.php/apps/gallery/s/4ui44fTV1DuFDgX
Thanks for your help!
Greetings Limezy,
Do not "pack" grease into the planetary like you did into the gear box. If you do that the drip cup will not be able to contain it all and eventually you will get grease in your bowl. I suggest swiping a about a teaspoon on the ring gear and no more. Remember to grease around the center bore of the planetary where the shaft goes through.
Looks great! Nice color too. I have to get back to mine pretty soon. I have a few pieces to sand and1 i need to get media blasted and a few dents to fix with JB weld. I really don't like sanding
Picked up the parts from the powder coater today, they have been done for a while that explain the dust on them. The planetary was not powder coated, I excluded it planning to acquire a new one but I was not successful. I will use the existing planetary and powder coat it next time around in black. Color is a metallic base with a clear copper clear coat.
Posted this on another thread, just posting on here to keep the N50 rebuild going. Just rebuilt the copper and blue N50 and had a G model that I came cross, the red N50 is factory built
Hi all,
I have the great pleasure to tell you that I've just finished my Hobart restauration. Here is a little video of the final result.
I would like to thank you all for your help and advice. This was really helpful and let me get the job done to the end!
I will post photos of it as soon as possible.
@givemethedough, great color! Building the Hobart like new after the powdercoating is the best part of the restauration.
Pretty repainted in yellow!!
Wow! An awesome result and great work. The mixer looks and sounds fantastic. You've found the experience very rewarding, and I can say that - as the thread starter - it's great to see other people posting their restoration experiences here.
Happy baking! You'll have to let us know what your first mix is!
Nice stuff, I am need to get back to my project and order up some parts. I did talk to a powered coater and had the wife pick out a color I just have a little "body work" to do on the back cover.
I mis placed your direct email, I noticed you have a model G, I picked one up and have not gotten around to doing anything with it. I originally picked it us as a parts machine for the shifter.
There are no numbers on it that I can see, it looks like a model G rear cover, but it has a small plate N50 on off switch and a late model gear selector with the black knob.
just wondering what the main difference is
Hi, Internal components are practically the same an N50 and external like the switch plate. The rear cast cover is another story. On the model that I have there is a spring loaded oil cover switch for lubricating the rear armature shaft and the mounting holes would be a direct fit for an N50. This is a more effective design than the rear oil ports on an 4749 N50 model. If you are interested (or anyone else?) you can have this G model for $300. It runs smooth and quiet, shifting into 3rd is sometimes a little rough it, but can be adjusted. All attachments and bowl, plus a brim cover for the bowl are included.
My next mixer, to be repainted in blue or gray..jpg
I, also, have a Model G. Started cleaning it for repainting.
Hi everyone,
First of all, what a great forum - or community really, with all the helpful posts!
I bought a (much) used N50 a couple of years ago. Couldn't find the serial # on the Hobart website, but when I talked to a lady there she said it's probably pre-1970. Still ran smoothly though, maybe a bit on the noisy side. Recently, however, it has become more noisy, and I've noticed some oil(?) leaking from what I understand is an adjustment screw on the back right hand side of the bowl lifter. I figured the grease (which likely has been in there for a long time) is starting to separate, and that it's time for a re-grease.
I removed the switch plate, and noticed that the grease is almost black and it wasn't as packed with grease as I've seen on some of the photos. So probably better to completely remove and replace the old grease.
With help of the posts on this forum (and one or two other tips) I've removed the bolts securing the motor and the transmission housing, but I'm having trouble separating the two. I'm wondering if there's something still holding them together, and I wouldn't want to break of damage anything - obviously... Or should I just be a bit more forceful?
So then I tried to first remove the planetary. After driving out the tapered pin, and carefully nudging it with two screwdrivers, it came down about half an inch. But it doesn't appear to want to move any further. I considered wedging it out, but again, I wonder if it may be catching on something that could break if I do.
From reading the above, I hope (or am confident, actually) that some of you will easily be able to comment on the above. Also, it would be great if someone could hook me up with a copy of the service manual, as I now only have the parts diagram to go with.
Thanks in advance for your help!!
Send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you the service manual.
If you've removed/loosened all of the large screws holding the motor and transmission housings together, it should come apart, although can be stiff. The to from the manual shows a photo of hitting the top front of the transmission case i.e. above the attachment hub, with a soft mallet onto a rag (to protect the paint). The torque from this will separate the two halves of the mixer.
Similarly, having gotten the planetary that far, it will just come with some force. Put a centre punch through one of the holes in the shaft and use that as a fulcrum to hammer down on. Get ready to catch the assembly as it drops off though!!
Thanks, that's quick!
I'll give both a go, and be careful not to drop anything...
Like others, I couldn't locate the PM function but I've asked Floyd to activate it.
Re-posted from another thread.
New project; N50 Model 4634
Hello everyone,
Its been a while. Picked up a 4634 model. Pretty scuffed up, the grease was like old hard peanut butter with the oil coming out of it. The gear shifter was bent from being forced into position. I invested in a small heated ultra-sonic cleaner to help in cleaning the transmission parts. I have decided to eliminate the screw in fuse in favor of an 8amp re-settable fuse. It will be a rebuild / resto-mod with a few new touch points.
I have the whole of the mixer dismantled except for the rotor shaft and pinion gear that extends into the gearbox. The large flat head screw that needs to be removed before pulling the pinion gear is seized and I cannot get it to budge with my largest flat head screwdriver. I don't want to over-do the force as I am afraid of stripping the slot. Does anybody have any tricks to removing this part? Is it reverse threaded or something? This is the last major bit I have to remove before cleaning and powder coating.
Thank you.
Hi,
Here is my suggestion: Make sure the wadding (wool or cotton) is soaked wet with water, cover the area behind the screw with aluminum foil, provide radiant heat (do not point the torch directly at the screw) with a small propane torch (for about 1 to 2 minutes) place the flame near the screw but do not let the flame touch the screw. Next spray WD-40 or other penetrating oil (any small portion that gets in will be a plus), tap the bushing around the screw with a brass, rubber, or plastic mallet. Now attempt to remove the screw and make sure you have the back metal cover and casting removed, this will allow you to hold the armature with a rag to keep it from turning when loosening the screw.. Keep us updated on your build, always nice to see pictures of progress.
I would second this. With a few more tips.
The aluminum will heat much faster than the screw. That's a good thing.
Heat the area around the screw, not the screw. You want the part that the screw is screwed into to expand faster than the screw. You want the screw to remain small and the area that the screw is screwed into to expand. Work kinda fast because the heat will get transferred to the screw expanding it as well. Also don't overdo the heat, you don't want to ruin any painted areas, or heat treat anything which may make it brittle.
The other suggestion I "might" have if you are still stuck is an impact driver or impact screwdriver.
These can be bought online and are great for working on motorcycles that have these same issues where you have steel screwed into aluminum and the pieces may have some galling making them seize together. I use anti seize on these threads when I put them back together often.
Use a screwdriver that fits as tight as possible.
If you have screwdrivers that are "made to be struck", They do exist, you can tap the screw some to loosen it. The impact screwdrivers do that for you when they are trying to turn the screw.
Thank you for the advice! I was thinking of this method but wanted to leave it as a last resort. I have had to use a torch on cars before to get seized bolts out. I am thinking of using some PB blaster (penetrating spray lubricant) to work out any gunk and give it some time to slip into the threads and loosen things up. If that doesn't work, I will go the torch rout.
Once you get cleaned up. Let's say you hit it with a torch for a bit and you still don't get it out at first. While it's cooling down keep hitting it with PB Blaster or kroil. That will help draw in some of the oil. Then work it some more.
I don't know how much you got it stripped down to because I haven't taken mine apart yet. But if it's appropriate, like no electronics involved, you could put it in a 170 degree oven for like ten minutes and try to get it to loosen. I wouldn't do this with anything electrical even though there is probably not an issue at that low a temp.
Hi freshbread88,
Congrats for having stepped into such a great project ! It's a lot of fun... and also a lot of sweat, I guess anyone on this thread can tell ! I also had troubles with that screw. As far as I remember it's not reverse threaded. Do you have a screwdriver that fits the whole diameter of it ? I guess that would be a good first starting point.
I remember how hurtful was my left hand after having squeezed so hard the rotor !
Small thing about heating the great to expand it, be very careful to remove all the grease beforehand ! I did the trick to remove a stuck tapered pin (the one on the front that transfers power 90 degrees). Ended up with some crazy 2m high flames !
One of my reasons for leaving the torch as a last resort. I will definitely try to clean out as much of the grease as I can if I do have to use heat, but hopefully a penetrating lubricant will do the job and it won't require the flame. Thank you all for the advice! I will continue to document the process and hopefully have some good finished images to show in the end!
I'm so anxious ! My Hobart is not starting. It was perfectly running until this morning.
Depending on where is the planetary, it can start with difficulty, not at all, or quite well.
But when running, it makes a really bad noise.
I have a bad feeling about that : is part of my stator dead ? It sounds like if my stator was missing steps ?
Please refer to the below video :
Many thanks for your help and comments.
I really hope I'll get this old friend back to work...
Sounds like something is hitting the stator. I would pull it apart and and inspect. Something is in a bind.
What happens in different gears? I would not try it too many times as that will definitely burn up the motor.
You took it apart once.....the second time should be easier.
I would pull the gear case and try to turn the motor by hand. Try to "feel" where the bind is.
Hi there,
Many thanks for your answer and advise ! Sorry for my late reply, I didn't have any time to work on my Hobart !
So here I am :
So now I'm a bit lost and I really don't know what to do next :
I'm looking forward to your ideas and advise !
Hi Limezy,
I do not think anything is wrong with the stator core, judging by what I am seeing. In the video pay attention to the manner the governor is rotating. There is a "wobble" or play in it when it rotates, once the RPMs are higher it wobbles less and the mixer starts as usual. The rotor is not spinning concentric to the stator core. This can damage the stator core. You might be able to remedy this if the bearing in that is pressed into the housing is usable (take some closeup pictures when you have a chance). Why this happened is not clear, maybe the bearing has expired and will need to be replaced. These are the steps: 1. Using medium grit sand paper smoothen the shaft of the rotor assembly, 2. Using fine grit (emery cloth) once again smoothen the rotor shaft or the rotor assembly, 3. Inspect the bearing in the housing and insert only the rotor and turn it. Move it side to side and determine if you have too much play. The best thing to avoid any damage to the stator core by the rotor would be to replace the bearing immediately. 4. When I have assembled the rear bracket (on prior rebuilds) I have found necessary to gradually tighten the screws in sequence and turn on the motor to make sure I am not binding the rear shaft against the rear bearing. I repeat this process until the rear bracket screws are all tight. Sometimes I may have to loosen a screw and tighten a different screw. Follow this procedure as the 4th step in this process. If you find it necessary to replace the bearing in housing it might not be difficult to find as a non-Hobart replacement part. The shaft should measure .500" in diameter and there is nothing special about the material, it is usually a bronze bearing. Let us know if this helps.
Limezy,
Using the emery cloth, clean the diameter of the rotor. To answer your question; I don't believe the rotor is serviceable. I have not had the need to not dis-assemble the rotor.
That shaft is messed up. Most likely beyond "normal": repair and should be replaced.
I would be looking for the cause of that wear. To eat at a hardened shaft takes something very hard.
Do you have any measurment tools like a caliper or mic?
I would like to see the bearing that the shaft rides on. I also see that there is some dirt on one of the inpellers, That should be cleaned off.
Dear all, many thanks for your answers and sorry to reply so late.
I have to admit I'm quite depressed with these bad findings, and that I don't really know where to start... I chose to repair a Hobart to have an exeptional mixer with very long longevity. Less than 2 years later I have a main issue.
My best guess is that there was some sand left from the sanding / repaint of the motor casing that I didn't see. These sanding particles were trapped between the bearing and the rotor shaft and ruined everything. What I can't understand though is why the rotor shaft is less resistant than the bearing. Isn't the bearing supposed to be the consumable part ?...
So, about the repair. Easy part is the bearing. I've already asked the France Hobart parts supplier to give me a quotation. However, do you know how the shaft shall be removed ?
About the rotor shaft : I have no clue on how disassamble the rotor. It looks like everything is glued together. When I check the diagram of motor parts, it looks like the rotor is sold as one piece only (http://thesmartpartsestore.hobartservice.com/category/26225/motor-parts)
So it looks like I have few options :
1. Find a cheap Hobart / if possible non working but with a non damaged rotor. Saddly, Hobarts are really rare here in France...
2. Find a good skilled guy with a lathe that could reduce the diameter of my rotor, then buy a thicker bearing
What do you think ?
Anyway, please be sure that even in my high disappointment about this project it's really valuable to have some experts all around the world to help !
Bonjour,
Vos suppositions sont probablement bonnes, car un palier bronze ne peut clairement pas être responsable d'un tel dégat sur le rotor ! Ce qui de plus ne vous aura pas aidé c'est probablement d'avoir un palier tout lisse, alors que celui-ci était historiquement rainuré en spirale ... laissant ainsi la possibilité à un éventuel corps étranger d'aller dans la rainure pour ne pas labourer l'axe :-(
L'idée de réduire le diamètre d'axe (avec coussinet adapté) est séduisante, mais combien cela en coutera-t-il de faire faire tout ça sur mesure ? Cher hélas, je le crains, de même qu'un regarnissage acier pour ramener l'axe à son diamètre d'origine. Et quid de l'étanchéité finale ? Pas facile à appréhender également, car si ce palier n'est pas parfaitement ajusté alors vous aurez des coulées de graisses de la boite de transmission vers le compartiment moteur :-/
Sur ce dernier point : le 1er Service Manual Hobart (celui de 1967) insistait bien sur le fait de passer l'ensemble palier avant & arrière à l'alésoir pour avoir un ajustement parfait. Mais curieusement cette opération a disparu de l'édition de 1983 (celle qu'on trouve librement en PDF), en avant-goût d'une baisse de la qualité dans le soin de fabrication apporté déjà à l'époque :-(
Les pièces en neuf, comme vous l'avez expérimenté, c'est encore pire. Bref, au final je crains que le meilleur compromis soit de trouver un N50 esthétiquement usé et qui pourra servir de donneur d'organes. Idéalement encore meilleur marché s'il a le stator grillé (de loin la panne la plus fréquente sur ce type de moteur et d'appareil). A vous de jouer sur Leboncoin pour dégoter la perle rare, bon succès dans votre démarche :-)
Bonjour Flormont,
Merci beaucoup pour votre message qui confirme hélas le mauvais pressentiment que j'avais... Cette panne est très importante et je vais avoir du mal à m'en sortir. Un mélange de malchance et d'inexpérience j'imagine. C'était mon premier gros bricolage mécanique. J'aurais dû me méfier et vérifier à fond mes paliers avant d'introduire l'axe.
Après réfléxion je pense savoir d'où venait la particule. Elle a dû se loger dans la mèche de coton utilisée pour lubrifier le palier. J'aurais dû remplacer cette mèche de coton ou au moins la retirer pour la laver convenablement.
En ce qui concerne la réduction de l'axe, ça ne devrait pas être un problème. Je travaille en Chine avec de nombreux sous-traitants qui possèdent des machines outils et qui seront très heureux de me rendre ce petit service. Reste à trouver un palier en bronze qui possède le même diamètre extérieur exactement, et un diamètre intérieur inférieur... Le tout dans la bonne longueur. Ça va être chaud !
Quant à l'option d'achat d'un Hobart pour pièces, déjà qu'il n'y a pas de Hobart tous les 4 matins sur le bon coin, alors en Chine le marché est tout simplement inexistant. Si j'en trouve un qui vaut le coup je pourrai quand même l'acheter mais il faudra attendre de rentrer en France pour le récupérer...
@All, if by any chance someone had a working stator from a damaged Hobart and was willing to sell it to me + ship it to China, that would be a very great help !
Could y'all translate that in English, please? Can't read it.
I will, as soon as I can find little time ;)
I would go for option #2 .Cost wise I think you can find a small machine shop or hobbyist machineist and have that machined down and have a maching bronze bushing machined to match,
There are some special epoxies available (Not JB weld) that may work but still would require machining back to the correct diameter.
Finding a good one is pretty tough.
Also get all the crud off of the impellers. Srub with soap and water and toothbrush.
Keep us updated.
Hi all,
First of all thanks again for all your answers and advises. I decided to go for option 2. It was really worth trying since :
1. My rotor is dead anyway, so why not trying making something on it
2. Luckily enough, one of my regular suppliers here in China said he was willing to help (for free!)
After some discussion together we decided to mill the rotor and make a new bronze bearing from scratch that would match. Actually two different bronze bearings were made, I will try to chose the best design. As you'll see, the idea was to compensate for the fact that the milling of the rotor did remove the axle "step" in the end on which the engine gear normally seats. Don't know if it's clear.
Pieces are just made, I've received the above pictures. I should get them on next Monday.
Will this resurect my good old Hobart ? I *really* hope so.
So - did your fix work? That was some very nasty and unlucky damage on the rotor shaft. I had something similar, when I left a screw in the transmission housing, and it stripped one of the fibre gears.
Hi, many thanks for your concern, that's kind of you !
It's going into the right direction but not yet totally solved, that's why I didn't give yet any news.
In a nutshell, the bearing I received was just a tad too thin for the housing, so it would slip and rotate with the rotor shaft. I did however try to rebuild the whole back part (basically all except the front gearbox) to check. MIRACLE, my Hobart was starting at the quarter turn and super smoothly. I was feeling very relieved since I knew from this moment that my Hobart would be live again !
However, because I was afraid that the bearing turning would damage the housing on the long term, by randomely turning in it instead of being stuck in it, I did ask my supplier to make another one, bigger by 1/10th of mm. The bad news is that either I missed my measurement, either the supplier missed his manufacture, but I received a bearing that is indeed larger, but still not enough !
Because all of this was free work, I didn't want to bother him for a third time, so I've bought a bottle of Loctite 641 that will help securing the bearing into the housing. As soon as I receive the bottle I'll rebuild the Hobart completely ! The bad news being that with the Chinese New Year, and even worse, with the coronavirus now spreading in China, I may have to wait for one month or more before receiving the package at my door.
I have one last concern, for which I'm afraid I won't be able to do anything. As you may know, the rotor of Hobart engine is fitted with a few very small weights that are meant to perfectly align the center of inertia to the rotor middle axis. The thing is now that my rotor has been machined, these weights would need to be placed elsewhere ! I don't know anybody who would have the good machine to tell which weights need to be placed and where. As a consequence, I feel that my rotor is very slightly out of balance, and that even if running impressively smoothly compared to few months ago, my engine is more vibrating than it should. If you have any idea, feel free to propose, but I'm afraid I'll have to do with it !
A slightly vibrating but working Hobart is still WAY better than a non working Hobart... After having to wait for more than one year (shame on me), my wife starts to complain, and I fully understand !
I think that locktite 641 will work for exactly what you need. As far as vibration since and equal amount for metal was removed from the shaft and a part that is enclosed in a bearing, balance is not an issue if the shaft is true end to end which I am sure it is as it was machined.
You may want to see if any of the washers came off of the rotor and change the bearing in the rear motor carrier.
Hi Nickelmore, thanks for your answer.
I've just received my Loctite 641 and it looks like my bearing problem is now defintely solved ! On the other side, the bearing in the rear motor carrier looks perfectly fine.
Saddly it looks like even if the rotor damage was indeed a big problem that I had to solve (and that is now solved) it's not the only problem of my Hobart... I'm starting to be quite desperate about that Hobart on which I have placed so much work and energy, that is still not working as expected...
My problem looks like a starter or rotor / stator winding damage. Let me try to explain. I can see two main problems :
1. First problem is that kind of vibration I was talking about. Doesn't look like a very big deal but could be the sign of a big trouble... (more below)
2. Second problem is that sometimes my Hobart will just refuse to start. (Making the same noise as my video posted 1 year ago above).
I did some research by opening the back carter and try to launch the Hobart multiple times at multiple speeds.
This is why my conclusion is that it has to do with a bad starter or bad winding.
I've tried to debug the starter. Looks nice and clean, no problem for the centrifugal switch. I've sanded just a little bit the contact point in case they weren't contacting well enough. This is why (to my very big fear) it seems to me that the problem has to do with either the rotor or stator winding.
I feel like a quarter of the winding has been damaged. The strange thing is that I've checked the stator winding for any trace of burning without any luck. (But obviously I couldn't check for the rotor windings that are hidden).
I don't have a very good knowledge of monophasic asynchronous machines, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that our Hobart are using a secondary winding for starting, that is disconnected after speed has reach the cruising level. So either my rotor winding, primary winding or secondary winding look like damaged.
If by chance there is any specialist here, I'd be glad to hear from him !
And I'm still wondering how all this could happen to me, on a machine that is supposed to be indestructible for many years and even under heavy load !
Thanks again in advance for your help that has been very precious all along this Hobart restoration project, eventhough I would have prefered just to bake with it instead of asking myself pretty complex questions about bearings, windings and so on...
Hi Limezy - keep at it... you'll get there!
I thought I had starter, winding and various other problems as my N50 was doing something similar to yours. Finally, I worked my issue out - it was a missing shim, which meant the whole rotor-starting cage assembly wasn't quite where it needed to be to allow the asynchronous start up. In fact, I'll quote my experience from post #1 on this thread:
Look into it on your machine before trying anything else & good luck!
"[UPDATE 26/12/15: the problem with the starter motor was eventually traced to needing a shim (metal washer) on the shaft of the rotor, in the motor housing. Finally working this out had two advantages as the rotor is now correctly positioned a few mm's further to the rear of the mixer. One, the starter works first time, every time without shims. Two, the (17T) drive pinion doesn't strip the (49T) main gear. Don't ask how I found out this was the problem, except know that it cost two replacement main gears to figure out. To assist, the location of the shim sits at part #18 on this diagram: http://thesmartpartsestore.hobartservice.com/category/7939/motor-parts and is listed as "spring, loading" (SL-005-10).
For older model N50's, the location of the shim is at part #14 & 15 on this parts diagram: http://thesmartpartsestore.hobartservice.com/category/7926/motor-parts. Part numbers are WS-007-21 and/or WS-007-19."
Wow this is really interesting !
I'll do a complete review of my shims pile up. To be frank with you I have one shim remaining because I thought I had too many shims on my assembly !
Many thanks, let's check if this works.
For those who are interested, I got an explanation by my boss who is highly skilled about metal & mechanics.
He told me that it's quite common that when there is a foreign body inside a metallic assembly, it's the hardest part that will get damaged first. Why ? Because the foreign body will get stuck in the soft part that will "absorb" it. After that, the foreign body won't move compared to the soft part, but will continuously be damaging the moving hard part until something bad happens - just like in my case, the rotor did start to touch the stator...
I found it very interesting and this explains my above question : "What I can't understand though is why the rotor shaft is less resistant than the bearing. Isn't the bearing supposed to be the consumable part ?..."
Not sure it will help anybody here, but hey, why not putting this here, for the mechanical knowledge of everybody !
In anwser to your questions :
A short-circuit of windings may be caused by a physical damage (for example a iron washer forgotten or fallen is the motor case) ; but a short-circuit due to overheating will always leave carbonized windings (ie. visually black)
Not to my knowledge, especially for single-phase motors. This picture is a good illustration of this kind of failure : https://easa.com/portals/0/Images/FailuresBrochure/WindingFailure2_web.png
Of course it's a picture of a 3-phase stator, but it illustrates very well how a overheated winding is evenly burnt while the others remain safe in appearance.
Yes with an ohmmeter, but also with megohmmeter (informally called "megger") in order to check that all windings are correctly insulated among themselves and with the ground
Not to my knowledge, if you consider that a burnt winding will boost chance of short-circuits to the other windings. This said, it's true that a motor could run with an ineffective winding that is not powered ... this is regular for 3-phase motor (the remaining windings are stressed and subject to quick overheating too), but no chance for the N50's motor due to this special design.
For your problem, you should try to follow the instructions of the early N50 service manual (not the PDF file which spread out the web and which refers to the 1983 edition). I'm talkind about the 1st edition of this document, realased in the 60's which is even more complete in how to how to service the motor and also gives more clues in finding problems.
You will discover that, when a bearing is replaced (front or rear), it's strongly recommended to adjust all this with a reamer ... this should avoid any "hard point" [ sorry I don't know how to translate the french "point dur de rotation" expression ... mais bon vous comprendrez l'idée je pense ] which looks like to be your current issue !
Another detail to watch is that the rotor doesn't translate too much within its bearings, beacause this can affect the centrifugal switch stroke, depending on the position where the rotor decided to stall during the previous use :-)
Good luck for your N50's maintenance.
If you have a copy of that manual, flormont, would you please be willing to share it with me? I have an elderly N50 which is beginning to squeal and need all the help I can get to see if I can fix it. As I bake bred weekly, I will be lost without it! If you will share, I will have to figure out how to do a PM on this site! Thanks so much!
Old listing but might be able to help understand. This is a common misconception about bronze or brass against steel. The softer metal should wear first if it's clean and lubricated. With dirt, sand or abrasive, it will embed in the bush and then your blast media is wearing against the steel.
M
For any of you who have had the N50 apart, did you happen to notice the rotor winding gauge? I'm trying to figure out what I should limit the current of the machine to.
You are talking about rotor windings, but all existing N50 should have an AC-induction motor fitted with a squirrel-cage rotor. The early service manual mentions a DC variant (with wound rotor), but we can guess these N50 are now very rare, even died out.
If you are talking about the stator windings, then I may provide the gauge values suitable for both main and auxiliary coils ... but only for the 220V european version. Please let me know ...
I don't know anything about squirrel-cage rotors, but it sounds like I don't have to worry about fusing a conductor in one(?)
So this may be easier than I thought. I can easily get to the stator and make the measurements for my 120/60Hz motor. The rotor would have been more work. I didn't notice the auxiliary coils the last time I had it apart. Are these smaller gauge than the main on your 220V model?
I'm trying to figure out what protection I need, since if this design is anywhere close to the old Hobart built Kitchen Aid, the 3.5A breaker is way too small. We pull over 15A on the KA unit when it is struggling. I Also noticed in the service manual, the ML-134268 and ML-33777 variants of the Hobart use the 271547 column *without* "a hole for the reset switch" so it sounds like there is no unit mounted breaker(?)
I've heard rumors that if the stator or rotor windings (or equivalent) of an induction motor are off by as little as 10%, significant increase in current may result. Since there are four different stators, and two different rotors that can be configured depending on voltage and frequency, an incorrect part at assembly might be causing my problem. Do you know if there is some kind of clear identification on these parts?
Look up circuit breaker in this same thread Givemethedough uses a 6 amp breaker mounted on the back.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/24332/hobart-n50-restoration-experience#comment-372311
Jan 26 2017 - 10:15amCircuit breaker switch
Yes, I saw that. But I don't see how he came up with 6A. It sounded like a guess. I would like to make the calculation given the correct information. I can measure the stator gauge, so if I find the auxiliary windings, maybe I can find the weakest link.
I used a 6amp breaker based on N50s that have this feature built in from the factory. I am rebuilding a 4639 model with a screw in fuse that is 8amps. I am replacing the screw in fuse with an 8amp re-settable fuse. Hope this helps, let us know.
Funny. My ML-134262 version of the N50 came with a 3.5A breaker. I wonder if there is something different about the stator windings, or if the 3.5A breaker now supplied is just hyper careful.
Hi Dave,
Yes, you are correct there have been different size breakers used. Here is the post from January 2017 regarding the amp size. If you scroll (or click on the link in the post above) up you can see my red mixer and the factory installed with a 6amp breaker.
Limezy,
Yes I have added breaker switches to the N50. The photos will show the location, the specifications are: 6amp (you could go to 4amp but I was concerned with false tripping), push button thermal, 32v DC (not sure what your wall sockets are putting out), Reset method: Type 3 manual reset, Mount type: 1/4" quick connect blade.
I just purchased N-50 mixer from a closed bakery. I am doing some maintenance on the mixer, I wanted to change the grease in the transmission. I noticed there was no gasket or O Ring separating the transmission case from the field ring. I couldn’t find a gasket/O Ring in the Hobart catalog of replacement parts. Does anyone know if there should be a gasket? If so, can you please send me the parts number?
I do believe that you are refering to WS-007-19 and WS-007-21, they are washers on the motor side of bearing 00-290659 which is slotted ( I do believe mine had a little wicking packed in it as well.) As thick as #2 grease is under normal operating conditions it should never breakdown and get to the level of the motor.
Hello everyone,
Is the tumbler yoke stop inside an N50 designed to slide (during use when changing speeds) on the oval feature it sits over? Or is it meant to be tightened down "bloody"? I am having difficulty adjusting (making the transmission quieter)? The service manual instructs to turn the motor on and adjust the set screw near the planetary for fine tuning. I have tried this, but I think I can make it quieter with some help from the forum. Any help would greatly be appreciated. Thanks!
The tumbler yoke stop is designed to slide only during adjustment. It is kept in place by the prong on the tumbler that pushes against the stop by the force provided by the tumbler yoke spring at the appropriate stop level based on the speed setting and the adjustment adjustment screw.
Same mixer; went from Cornflower Blue to Lolypop Red.
Your powder coater must love when you show up!
I just came upon some 1/8 alum sheet so I can make some covers for the powder coater.
Did you put silicone tape around the edge so the powder does not stick to the opening covers you made?
Thanks,
Bert
Hi Bert,
The powder coater takes care of of the slides on the column. The front accessory hole get a round aluminum plug held in by the thumb screw tapped hole, all tapped holes get screws put in them. The motor and transmission housings get aluminum covers held on with screws, no tape here on the edges. For the planetary, I used one long screw and washers and one nut. I also put in some steel wool in housings to arrest the sand that gets in during sandblasting. Despite all of the precautions I still spent 4 nights cleaning the sand out and using "Q" tips on my Dremel to clean the grit from the tapped holes. This time around I wrapped the pieces with saran wrap and masking tape while I worked on cleaning and assembly. What is your current project?
Too many projects at the same time, saveing money to get them done one at a time.
Just finished a univexpower head that I traded for a Hobart 20 Qt. Also have a buffalo chopper apart that previous owner hacked together that I am waithing to repair a bearing and shaft.
Also picked upa Vintage KA with a flat back, I actually like the flat back versus the N50 Dome I have vowed not to even look at it until my other stuff is finished.
My present project is to hydro dip a gun stock in muddy girl camo for my grandchild. I will also show him the mixer parts to check prices vs powder coating. Trying to use an illinois vendor but have not had too much luck yet.
I might have an Illinois vendor for the camo, he also does black. It all ends up being "E" coat. I will post it as soon I have details.
I know the pinion gear has been discussed but I just wanted to post a picture of the puller to remove it. Purchased from Amazon for $15.99, its the 2.00" model.
Help, I hope someone is still monitoring this fabulous thread.
My Hobart N50 jammed, and encouraged by this crew, I decided to disassemble, remove the 20 year old grease and fix it myself.
And I succeeded in getting it apart and cleaned out.
But now, I'm not sure my photo record is helping me make sure I'm putting it back together right, and the shop manual I found is vague enough that I'm even less sure.
Does anyone have some good photos of what it's supposed to look like when it's assembled but not greased yet?
My photos are right here.
Thanks all!
Seth
Hi Seth,
Welcome to the world of Hobart openers !
First of all : do you have a complete set of the repair & maintenance manual ? It's quite well done and you can follow the steps to re-assamble.
Then about your request :
https://nuage.de-ruffray.fr/s/F3fCBCX2o585XdZ
This is the best pic I have from my restauration.
All the best,
Limezy
That photo is ideal.
Do you have a link to the complete set of repair and maintenance manual? Because my googling has failed me.
thanks again.
Hi again !
Here is what I have : https://nuage.de-ruffray.fr/s/bTJ5odMA3qc7HJf
Good luck !
Hi everyone,
I have a model G from KitchenAid I hope to one day restore and I have some questions for the veterans in the forum.
I'm also looking for the original attachment knob, dough hook and pastry knife if anyone is willing to sell theirs :)
I'll work on organizing my questions first since there are many to ask! But for a first post for tonight this will suffice.
I have been reading the forums and find it all very informative. Thank you all for the contributions
Hello everyone,
Just posted a Chrome Model "G" in the for sale forum, if anyone is in the market. Take care!
-Givemethedough
I'm interested, how do we proceed?
Hi everyone,
Just a heads up; I have an Atlas Copper Bowl Liner for sale in the forum. If anyone is in the market. Take care!
Duplicate post in the For Sale Items: Regarding Model "G" sold through the FL forum.
Just a followup to everyone in the forum.
The shipped Kitchenaid Model "G" arrived broken at the column. If you ever decide shipping a Model "G" or N50 consider some dis-assembly. The buyer opted for his refund, Pay Pal facilitated the refund. I was of the opinion that the buyer should pay for the return shipping, I still emailed the prepaid FEDEX shipping label. The buyer (to date) has not returned the merchandise, I need the merchandise to file a damage claim with FEDEX. The buyer no longer responds to any emails, and has kept the merchandise and all accessories and has received his refund. You can call it many things, a couple of them are fraud and theft. I thought everyone here was truly for the most part honest. I was way off, I wish I had sold the mixer to the person who offered to pick it up in person. Pay Pal has not been very helpful, not best for buyer and seller as I originally thought. Any buyers be wary of the person I sold to. In a past case I had help with the State's Attorney in my state. The buyer's local law enforcement has been contacted (they are being receptive), I will also contact the State's Attorney that the buyer's state as well. I am pretty sure this falls within the realm of mail fraud which is a federal offense. I will not be posting any additional comments related to this experience but feel it is beneficial to others in avoiding potential problems when they buy or sell an item. Take care.
Good work everyone!
I'm hoping to purchase and restore a Hobart N50. I started a post about it here. Maybe you all have insight?
Thanks
I'm hoping someone can add information here. I haven't fully dissambled my n50 yet. But, it is full of grease that looks good.
The manual talks about adjusting clearances to 1/64. I wish they showed the power path for each speed. I have a noisy second gear and would really not like to adjust everything if possible.
Michael
Couple questions yall
1. Is the tumbler yoke stop supposed to slide back and forth freely when screwed in? I ask because if I flip the washer over, and screw the yoke stop down, it stays firm in place, if I flip the washer to the other side the yoke stop isn't fully held down and thus it can slide back and forth. I assume allowing it to slide is correct, so that it can be adjusted freely with the adjustment screw, otherwise I don't think the adjustment screw would be able to move the yoke stop at all if it's firmly screwed down.
2. Regarding play in the bevel gears, what is the proper amount? I looked at the manual. The service manual is from a newer generation, but I assume it's the same. It states 1/64" between the teeth, and the later image states 1/64" end play in the shaft. I'm not sure which is correct. I can't seem to get a feeler gauge between the teeth, or judge if the teeth gears are "matched" side to side.
I now see that the up and down movement in the planetary I was referring to previously, is actually too much play in the bevel gears. It looks as though I have far too much play. Something between 1/16-1/8". I had one of two washers break, though it was very very thin and it hardly made a difference.
3. Do the washers need to be fiber? Got any ideas for finding washers locally to take up that end play? I would love to finish this tomorrow. I doubt I can find an exact match, maybe a metal washer will work. I suppose I could fabricate some, or I might be able to find some nylon of fiber boards to make some with some punches.
edited.
Hello
I have several N50's but I just took one apart to repair it and change its color.
but i'm not a mechanic, nor an electrician....
when i removed the stator, inside, under the stator there were two wires, with a limit switch. i removed it, and put it in the trash.
Moreover in the column, there is a small electrical box with 6 wires.
I think it is an addition that I can also remove.
I disconnected everything...
I connected the phase and neutral directly to the motor.
it hums but does not start.
for the reassembly the electric motor does not start.
how to adjust the start of the motor?
i don't use a multimeter, i don't know how to use it.
thank you
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I think it might be this contact that is not made?
Does it have to be intermittent, or does it have to be glued all the time?
Hello
I read the whole post about the hobart n50.
I saw that there are at least two french people who went through it.
If you could give me some advices to start the engine of my n50.
Thanks
for the grease I took the famous "Belleville grease".
https://graisse.fr/produit/graisse-blanche-contact-alimentaire?attribute_conditionnements=Boite+700g
certainly equivalent to the mobil
Hello
is this obligatory?
and is it necessary?
thank you
I will look at the rest of the post, but what i do know from people who make things ....if they could have not spent money on the part they would not have put it in.
Where is this part located? I have not seen it in older N50's or KA G's
As you deduced it rightly, this relay is the main part of "no-volt release" subsystem. It fits the N50CE version for the export market (at least, Europe) and is in production since at least 25 years old now as far as I know (= about 1/4 of the global life of the model, which is not negligible)..
Due to the successive retrofits the venerable KA G received, the only free place for this relay has been found within the column, below the bowl lifter cam&axis.
Note that "no-volt release" security option also involves a specific power switch which no longer provide the speed shift locking action.
That will probably work Ok. You do not need to spend extra money on NSF labled grease as the mixer is a sealed unit and there is no way for food to make contact with the gear transmission.
Any light NGL 2 or synthetic grease will last you a lifetime.
That is a contactor that is energized when power is applied. It starts the stator to turn and when it comes up to speed it disengages That is what the spring on the stator do.
That whole thing looks like someone did not know how it works and bypassed it all. That machine is newer and clean. I have a number of machines that are 50 years old that use the same contactor. They work .
I would grab the wireing diagram from the service manual and compare it to what you have. Was the machine working with the new set up? The mechanical cont actor works good. They have to be shimmed properly.
Hello
I bought this machine second hand.
as i am not an expert, and i dismantled it two months ago and more,
It made a rattling noise in the head when it started. the grease was grey instead of white. it was the bi-color wheel with 6 screws that had eaten its washer, and the screws were rubbing on the gear shift plate.
Before I found this forum, YES it was working...
a safety device was removed by the people who sold it to me; the one on this picture.
At the moment the rotor does not start every time.
It forces, hums, and I only plug it in for 2 or 3 seconds not longer, to try to start it without burning it...
Is the stator in its housing fixed?
That is to say that it must be blocked without moving back and forth?
because i started it a few times but with only 3 washers out of the 4 that are on the picture above.
I put some in the front and in the back, but since then it has stopped again.
The Potter&brumfield was in the column.
but it takes up all the space inside. it has 6 threads, that's a lot for me.
there must be an easier way, with 2 wires to do the same thing, because if this part dies, you will have to dismantle the whole device to replace it.
it's just an engineer's trick, to mess with.
For me it's what replaces the fuse from before. unless this new motor is of lesser quality than the ones before and it's a trick to help it.
I'm going to live in an isolated place, where it would be better if it didn't break down because of this kind of hard-to-find part.
But then I put everything back in place...and 10 wires for a 220 motor that only needs two...it bothers my eyes. And an on/off button that has 4 instead of two, that also bothers me.
and I think I saw in the pdf on the internet that the circuit breakers are optional
well well well.
I managed to get it to run.
But sometimes it starts with pain, slowly, before taking its cruising speed.
and that's not good.
The rotor and stator are getting hot. is this normal?
if you remove the rotor, you can see on the picture that it rubs on the back,
how do i do it? do i sand it?
I learned something today. I will have to research that relay to see if it is just a European voltage thing. I have not seen that in any of my machines but they are much older that the one in the picture.
There should be no rubbing. it should have the same clearance all around. Something is not aligned properly. you should be able to turn it bu hand to check.
I connected the motor directly by removing this circuit which looks like a break.
I connected the motor to my on-off button.
It works, the motor turns easily with the hand.
I chose to leave it running, so that it wears itself out where it rubs.
And it seems to align itself naturally with the stator.
Anyway I start it many times a day to see if it doesn't jam.
There was a limit switch behind the stator, inside the flange.
I also disconnected it.
I put everything in English, in some time when I come to see for my other future n50, it will be necessary that I retranslate everything in French...to understand...
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it pisses me off....
I received the fat.
I tested it and it was fine.
the engine was finally running.
I put the head on, 1st ok, 2nd ok, 3rd..it turns like the 2nd..I force on the lever and it cracks strongly.
I rebuild everything.
I have to find what's sticking with all the fat in it.....
I found the 1983 hobart n50 manual to help me. the pdf on page 2 of 8.
The pinion block (63) does not go down under the pinion (35) of some millimetres. 1.5 or 2.
if i put a washer under the 35 i have to raise the (40.41.46.47) otherwise the screws rub on the 35.
if i put a washer under the (40...47) it jams everything.
the device has been heavily used and aged by the professional who had it.
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