The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Bulk fermentation question

Maniuni's picture
Maniuni

Bulk fermentation question

Hello, 

I started making my own bread after I read about the no-knead method and got very excited but also had a ton of questions. For the most of them I already found great answers on this site and from a book that I bought but of course there are still more :)

I understand the merit in letting the dough ferment for a long time but my question is what is the difference in letting in ferment on the counter vs in the fridge. 

Until now I've let it rise on the counter for around 16-18 hours with 1/4 tsp yeast for 400 g flour and 300 ml water.

If I up a little the amount of yeast and put the dough in the fridge - how does that change the quality of the bread (also should I up the yeast at all)?

I can of course try and see but I still would like to know the difference in theory not just practice.

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

Fermentation is generally about flavor development and this process is dependent on yeast and/or bacteria doing their jobs efficiently. Like most organisms, yeast and bacteria have ideal temperatures in which they thrive. This flavor development has to work in concert with gluten development which has its own timing criteria. Throw a few different flour types with varying protein contents into this mix and perfecting a quality loaf of bread can be quite a juggling act.

Using a very rough reference here, if the leavening is working most efficiently (100%) at 78 F, it may take 3 hours before the flavor is optimum and before the gluten begins to break down (overproofing). Change the temperature to 32 F and the leavening stops working all together (0%). Bakers slow down the fermentation and proofing processes most often to adjust the bake times to their personal schedules.

In other words, you can get up at 3 in the morning and ferment at 78 F, then get a finished loaf around 9AM. Or, you can start your build at 3 in the afternoon, ferment and fold for a couple of hours, retard further fermentation in a chiller around 45 F, get up a 6AM, fire-up the oven and have a fresh loaf around 9AM.

This is a simplistic view of retardation but it demonstrates a perspective of why it is done. Personally I find my bakes are more consistent if I run my ferments around 76 F from start to finish. At this point in my baking experience I am still experimenting with retardation and thus far the results have been inconsistent.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

depending on the temperature. Eventually you will find a method that works for you and that produces the flavours you like.

I followed Forkish for a long time, tried Robertson which didn't produce the oven spring or crumb that I liked although it tasted good and played a bit with a few others before using a combo of methods that work for me in terms of time and give me the rise and crumb I like for the most part. 

Here is what i do in case you want to know. Everyone has their own way so this is not the end all be all. In a nutshell, I mix the add-ins with the water and add the flours, let autolyse for 45-60 minutes. I mix in the salt, sourdough (275 g for about 1100 g of flour) and add water till the dough feels right (not too stiff, not too runny). The dough ferments in my oven with the door cracked open by a wooden spoon. Temp in there is around 82 F. I do 4 sets of folds a half hour apart. Once the folds are done, I leave the dough till it is doubled or slightly more than doubled. That takes about 5 and a half hours Of total bulk fermentation. Then I preshape, let rest 25-30 minutes and finally shape into baskets. I put the baskets in the fridge ( 38 F) for 10-12 hours and bake right out of the fridge. 

Each step has a reason behind it and that is what I found worked for me over the last year of trying different things. You will find your own way.

I had no idea when I first got into bread baking that one could get to this point without baking thousands of loaves first. The help here on TFL has been incredible and has totally supported my learning. 

Maniuni's picture
Maniuni

Thanks a lot for the replies! I find this whole business with bread making complicated and the same time insanely interesting.

So, I guess I will have to experiment then. I didn't know I could bake straight from the fridge, I am going to try it.

Currently I am working with just one basic recipe and every time I make it I change just one thing to see how the finished bread changes it's properties and this has been very valuable so far.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

down so the dough fits into your baking schedule - the flavor profile isn't changed enough for me to tell at any rate.  SD is different,  Low hydration below 75% and cold temperatures cause the LAB to produce acetic acid instead of lactic acid.  Acetic is the tang and lactic is the sour base.  Having both in your SD bread is what makes it taste better better.

Retarding a SD bread will also make it fit into your baking schedule too since it slows down too but it doesn't slow down as much as a yeast bread.  In a retarded SD bread the yeast slow way down but the LAB are reproducing at 3 times the rate of yeast - at room temperatures the LAB out reproduce yeast by only 6%.  But since the rate is still very low it tales a long time to really work.  48 - 60 hours for built levains and weeks of retard for stiff rye starters is where it really starts to pay off in big ways.  This was the basis if the NMNF stiff rye starter process.

A starter or levain  that has 10 to 1 LAB to yeast ratios produces a bread that is much less sour and flavorful than on that has 50 or 100 to 1 LAB to yeast in it.  But since moist people don't like sour bread having less LAB is a plus but,for people like me,  less sour SD bread is bland.

Some people think that less is more but like Frank Loyd Wright said 'less is just less' for me.

Happy baking 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

down so the dough fits into your baking schedule - the flavor profile isn't changed enough for me to tell at any rate.  SD is different,  Low hydration below 75% and cold temperatures cause the LAB to produce acetic acid instead of lactic acid.  Acetic is the tang and lactic is the sour base.  Having both in your SD bread is what makes it taste better better.

Retarding a SD bread will also make it fit into your baking schedule too since it slows down too but it doesn't slow down as much as a yeast bread.  In a retarded SD bread the yeast slow way down but the LAB are reproducing at 3 times the rate of yeast - at room temperatures the LAB out reproduce yeast by only 6%.  But since the rate is still very low it tales a long time to really work.  48 - 60 hours for built levains and weeks of retard for stiff rye starters is where it really starts to pay off in big ways.  This was the basis if the NMNF stiff rye starter process.

A starter or levain  that has 10 to 1 LAB to yeast ratios produces a bread that is much less sour and flavorful than on that has 50 or 100 to 1 LAB to yeast in it.  But since moist people don't like sour bread having less LAB is a plus but,for people like me,  less sour SD bread is bland.

Some people think that less is more but like Frank Loyd Wright said 'less is just less' for me.

Happy baking 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

down so the dough fits into your baking schedule - the flavor profile isn't changed enough for me to tell at any rate.  SD is different,  Low hydration below 75% and cold temperatures cause the LAB to produce acetic acid instead of lactic acid.  Acetic is the tang and lactic is the sour base.  Having both in your SD bread is what makes it taste better better.

Retarding a SD bread will also make it fit into your baking schedule too since it slows down too but it doesn't slow down as much as a yeast bread.  In a retarded SD bread the yeast slow way down but the LAB are reproducing at 3 times the rate of yeast - at room temperatures the LAB out reproduce yeast by only 6%.  But since the rate is still very low it tales a long time to really work.  48 - 60 hours for built levains and weeks of retard for stiff rye starters is where it really starts to pay off in big ways.  This was the basis if the NMNF stiff rye starter process.

A starter or levain  that has 10 to 1 LAB to yeast ratios produces a bread that is much less sour and flavorful than on that has 50 or 100 to 1 LAB to yeast in it.  But since moist people don't like sour bread having less LAB is a plus but,for people like me,  less sour SD bread is bland.

Some people think that less is more but like Frank Loyd Wright said 'less is just less' for me.

Happy baking 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

;-)

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

No post gremlin who eats up all the posts. 

Maniuni's picture
Maniuni

It will be interesting to taste the difference that you describe when I start making sourdough. Thanks for the info!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Take a simple recipe...

 

500g bread flour

300g water

8g salt

5g dried yeast (or 10g fresh yeast)

 

Make the dough and knead till full gluten formation. Allow to double then place in the fridge for 12 hours. After which take it out of the fridge, shape, final proof and bake.

 

Then take the same recipe but alter the amount of yeast...

 

500g bread flour

300g water

8g salt

0.5g dried yeast (1g fresh yeast)

 

Make the dough, knead till full gluten formation and then bulk ferment overnight at room temperature. The next day shape, final proof and bake.

 

Compare and contrast.

Maniuni's picture
Maniuni

That's my plan, will try this next time. I just wanted to know if there is a known difference in theory. As an inexperienced baker I don't know if the difference that I will taste will be because of fridge/counter fermentation or something other that I'd done and it somehow changed things. This is not an exact science after all although I want it to be sometimes :) 

Sorry if this sounds confusing, English is not my first language :)

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Is to take it from the very same dough. It won't be exactly what you were talking about (i.e. a long ferment with two different ways) but it'll be interesting.

 

1000g bread flour

600g water

16g salt

10g dried yeast (or 20g fresh yeast)

 

Make the dough, knead till full gluten formation and bulk ferment till doubled. After which... divide into two halves. With one half... shape, final proof and bake. With the other half refrigerate overnight then proceed as normal.  

Maniuni's picture
Maniuni

Good idea!