The Fresh Loaf

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Problems building a starter

MrOneTwo's picture
MrOneTwo

Problems building a starter

Hi guys,
I'm having a lot of trouble building a sourdough starter and I don't know what to do anymore.
I've tried I think 15-20 times with several recipes (like Hamelman's or Chad Robertson's), with different kind of flour and water (even bottled water!), honey, fresh fruit, different temperatures...
EVERYTIME it goes the SAME way, regardless of the changes I try to apply: it starts really well and fast, usually in 20 hours it's already almost doubled. After that, when I start mixing it with new flour and water, it slowly dies. It dies with the exact same pattern no matter what I do.
I'm really frustrated right now... does anyone have any idea of what's going on? Is it possbile that there's some "bad" bacteria in the air in my house that kills it everytime? I know it sounds weird, but really I don't know what to think...
Thank you!

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

do a search for "Pineapple juice solution" by Debra Winks or "No Muss No Fuss" by Dabrownman

either of these will get you on the way.  You need to stick with it past the stage you got to using information in the posts and you will succeed. the forum will help as you go.

good luck!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

All your starters showed normal activity by going quiet after the initial bubbling up. Sounds like they were on the right track. Instead of following a recipe to the letter better to skip a feed or two and just stir instead. Once it picks up again then you start feeding again. Allow your starter to dictate to you at this stage. Try again and use pineapple juice like Leslie suggested.  Once your starter is ready then switch to water. Do not give up. 

Sugarowl's picture
Sugarowl

I'm on try #5 and it's finally working! :) So far I've been using rye flour only and I used pineapple juice for the first four feeds, and now I'm at bottled water (chlorine in my water). And yes the first time it takes off is nice, but it does go really quiet. If you're having cooler weather like I am now, take it slow! As long as you don't have black mold spots (like my #4 did) then you're fine. I'm on day 7 of feeding and it's been about 8 or 9 days total so far due to weather (about 72F degrees).

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Is red mould. That means it's only fit for the garbage. Once a starter is viable and strong I have heard of some being revived from being in the fridge for a very long time even when a bit iffy looking. With some TLC they can bounce back. But red/pink mould is a non starter! 

Congrats on your 5th attempt. I look forward to seeing your first bakes. 

drogon's picture
drogon

Most will bubble up in the first day then appear 'dead' - some even go smelly and slimey. Try this - flour + water, leave it covered in a cool place for a week. Then have a look. Give it a stir, take a dolop of that into equal flour & water and see..

There are a million ways to build a starter, but patience is what's needed. Don't rush it.

-Gordon

MrOneTwo's picture
MrOneTwo

I've read with so much interest the pineapple juice post and it seems to describe my exact same problem. So, thank you very much! 

I'll try again following those instructions and this time I really hope to succeed!

I'll keep you updated!

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

you are not alone in your efforts, we have all been there to a greater or smaller extent!  hang in there and we look forward to your updates

Leslie

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

It worked for me the first time I tried to make my own. Also make sure to use some kind of whole grain flour. I believe I used dark rye. 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

day 1 to 3.  Progressively more active for all the wrong reasons.  The bad Wee beasties that like a low acid environment (high pH) are running wild.  But the LAB in the mix are making more acid all the time and the bad wee beasties can't candle the acid and are killing themselves off with their own byproduct - acid.  Now the good wee beasties can take over.

They love a low acid environment to a point and they slowly start taking over the culture - Day 4-5 the culture may look dead - no activity but after that it will pick up slowly day 6-7 the culture gets mire active and by day 10 it will have as many goof LAB and yeast that love the acid environment as it will get but it still isn't mature and strong  In a month you have a keeper.

If you use white flour it will take longer,  If you use pineapple juice the activity in the first 3 days will be much less.  If you aren't at 76-78 F it will take much longer.

Happy making a starter.  I'm guessing most of your first attempts were well on their sour making ways until you gave up, lost patience and dumped them prematurely/

Remember...... if there is no activity - don't feed it till you see some.  Keep it at 80 -100% hydration and keep it warm.  If you have good water making a starter should work just about every time.  

Your starter may act differently by 1 or two days so no worries - it will go throug the same beginning schedule as they all do.

MrOneTwo's picture
MrOneTwo

Hi guys, here's a little update.

My starter had been very quiet the first three days, then in the night between day 3 and 4 it doubled in size. It looked and smelt different from the other times I've tried, it was full of big bubbles and "strings". Sorry if I'm not able to explain myself but I'm italian and I struggle a little with english!

Anyway, after it doubled I switched to white flour and water, and it seems that it slowed a little. It doubles, tops, then starts falling; smell is very alchoolic and also texture seems different, a lot of little bubbles and a more "soft" look. I'm still feeding it once a day with this routine: 60 grams of starter, 30 grams of water, 30 grams of white flour.

Should I go on like this? Do you think I'm on the right path?

Thanks

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Will make your starter behave differently. White flour will make a more liquidy starter at the same hydration as wholegrain. Larger bubbles and smaller bubbles will depend on flour and hydration.

Your starter sounds healthy and it's picking up after a period of quiet. Good!

However it smells very alcoholic which is a sign it's hungry. And because your starter is now stronger increase the feeds to 1:1:1 and get some wholegrain back in there.  

Remember to feed when there is activity so should it slow down and go quiet again then so do you. But I don't think this will happen.

MrOneTwo's picture
MrOneTwo

Another update. 

I'm on day 8; I've switched to a feeding 1:1:1 every 12 hours, with a 50/50 blend of white and whole wheat flour.

The starter is at 76° F, and doubles its volume every 3-4 hours. After that, unfortunately, starts collapsing: it doesn't triple. Is it normal? How does your starters behave?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Take a little off when peaked and see if it floats in a glass of water.

It's high hydration and a good feed of 1:1:1. See what happens if you feed 1:2:2. A better feed and will rise more. But it sounds really healthy. What does it smell like?

Start planning your first bake.

MrOneTwo's picture
MrOneTwo

The smell is more acidic and a lot less alcoholic. When is mixed is more "fresh", maybe like milk or something like this.

The problem is that now it seems to slow down... it collapses immediately after doubling, and needs more time to double...

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

to more fresh flour it'll take more time to eat through it. A high hydration starter will not stay peaked for long before the bubbles break the surface and it collapses. Can you include some pictures?

I think you should try baking with it.

MrOneTwo's picture
MrOneTwo

Yeah, i'll take some pictures and post them later this evening. By the way, thank you for your fast responses!

edit: here's some pictures: the first one is right after mixing it, then after 1,2,8,18 hours. It's slowing down more and more, I don't know what happened...

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

How much starter do you keep to feed?

How much fresh flour is this?

What flour are you using?

How high is the hydration?

What water are you using?

Scottyrox's picture
Scottyrox

The recipe I had, instructed me to discard and feed the starter daily. My starter didn't like it. I had to let it do its thing for 2 days, not one. I Also added a couple drops of vinegar when I fed it (Read that tip on freshloaf.com). Now it kicks ass. 12 hrs after feeding its float test ready!

MrOneTwo's picture
MrOneTwo

I've been quite busy in this last days and the starter has been sitting in the fridge most of the time... a few days ago i started again feeding it twice a day and keeping it at 75°, with some adjustments:

I ran out of my usual bread flour and started using a very strong white flour, mixed with whole wheat. I also decreased hydratation to 80%. So far, it seems to work: now it doubles every 3.30/4h, and almost triples in the next two/three.

I think I'll try to bake something in the next days... Is it high-gluten flour a good choice for feedings?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Have you got your eye on a recipe?

MrOneTwo's picture
MrOneTwo

I'm thinking about tartine bread, or maybe something from ken forkish's book

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough. Such a lovely bread to bake and makes a great first sourdough.