The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Once Proven Bread

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

Once Proven Bread

I have just baked a loaf which I only proved once. I simply made a dough to my normal recipe (500g Flour + 300ml + salt&oil) shaped it into a well greased Pyrex baking dish and proved it for 45 mins, put it in a preheated oven and baked for 30 mins. What I got surprised me. It is light, springy, delicious. Could have baked it a bit longer for the bottom & crust to develop a bit more but on first try it was a success.

My question is why do we rise our dough twice? It doesn't seem necessary.

Bakery Bill

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

Any answers gratefully received.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and I set the timer for 45 minutes to bake in a preheated oven.  Mine was 330g water with 500g flour.  

Once, twice, thrice, lots of variations.  How much yeast did you use?

joc1954's picture
joc1954

I am using such approach for typical Slovenian cake called "potica". We call this "overnight potica" - overnight because you mix the dough, knead it to develop enough gluten, spread it, put the toppings and then roll the dough and put in a special kind of pan - actually a round model and then into the fridge for overnight raise and bake next day. The dough is like the dough for Italian pannetone. So there is only one rise in the fridge. The result is extremely good.

Happy baking, Joze

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

on the flour the better the flavor and the longer the protease enzymes can break enough gluten bonds the more elastic the dough will be and the higher it will rise the 2nd time.  So two rises are usually specified/

Breadandwine's picture
Breadandwine

on the first point - the longer yeast and flour have to mature together, the more flavour develops (not sure on the second point). The question is, how long should the first proving be?

For the last couple of years I've been proving my dough just the once, after many years of proving twice. One of the reasons for this is that a friend and I did a trial of proving lengths - I can't remember the exact details of how we conducted the test, but the conclusion we came to was that it took about four hours initial proving before there was any noteworthy increase in flavour. 1 hour, the recommended period in the majority of recipes, made no discernible difference at all. 

I can't say we noticed any increase in the rise of the bread after various lengths of initial proving - they all seemed much of a muchness, as I recall.

One thing that does affect the rise, IME, is the amount of water in the dough. I go for a 70% hydration - 350g water to 500g flour - you might want to think about that, Bill.

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

Thanks to bread&wine for you useful comments. On the length of proving I find 45 mins with T55 is perfect for doubling the dough. Any more and it would need knocking back before baking (or resting for 2nd rise). I always hydrate & culture my 7-8g yeast with a top sugar & all the 300g tepid filtered water. I'm sure this is why I get consistency of first rise (& 2nd for that matter)

The point about hydration I'm sure is valid. I have settled after many recipes on 300g Water because the dough gets so messy and sticky with 330g or 350g to 500g flour. However I will experiment at these hyrations to see what the difference is. 

Bakery Bill

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

of flour was not just white wheat,  It was 200g Spelt, 250 AP and 50g White Rye.  8g salt.  I also used a hand full of bread crumbs sitting in a bowl nearby to dust my table top while I kneaded.  (Too lazy to put them away.)  This made for a slightly stiffer dough.  

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

So what is your opinion of my 300 g water with 500g T55 flour? Would it improve my bread to use more water? As I say I will try different hydrations but to me the dough is smooth stretchy and soft before & after first rise so I can't imagine that making the dough messier and stickier will improve the consistency of the crumb.

Bakery Bill

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

what is right for you.  

My AP comes in vacuum sealed plastic so it is very thirsty and 75% hydration feels like 60% when the dough is finally moistened.  The rye takes a fair share and spelt takes its time soaking up.  I usually add 320g right away and tip in a little as I near the end of stirring.  I will also wet my hands later on if the dough seems dry while kneading or take it outside into the 90% humidity to proof.  The dough seems to suck up moisture from the air too as it ferments.  (Look mom, no plastic!)  The variety of flours added flavour of the bread.  If I were to use just AP and a short rise, we would both be able to taste the difference, something less than my normal plain white.  Flours will vary and if you're stuck with a very plain wheat, it's good to know how to make it taste better if you need to.

For you If 300g fells right then 300g it is.   

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

OK so I have baked this morning (I know its only 10 o'clock but I'm an early riser). I did two doughs, the first at 300g water/500g T55 flour and the second dough was 350g water/500g T55 flour. I have a photograph but I can'r see how to attach it!? Anyway the first dough rise at 45 minutes approx 24 degrees C in the bakery doubled easily, I shaped into 14 x 64g buns. They rose beautifully the second time and came out of the oven after about 15 mins. Had two for breakfast and they were excellent (though I say so myself).

The second dough was a lot wetter and very sticky but rose even better in 45 mins than the first. On shaping however, as I suspected it was like jelly wobbles. I struggled to divide it into two Bannetons and proved it for a second 40-45 minutes. Again it doubled well but on tipping out had no form and proceeded to flatten like a pancake. I slashed the tops, baked for about 30 mins and got some rise in the oven but not enough to prevent the final boules being flat. Now to taste; the crumb is more open, the bite chewier & the crust better formed than I am used to at lower hydration levels. OK so I can see that the texture is better but how do I get the form? Do I need to bake inside tins/dishes when the hydration is 350g water/500g flour? Do I need to get more condition in the gluten? Any suggestions please. Bakery Bill

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

that wetter proofs faster.  Cut the slack dough  proofing time and 

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

looks like you were cut off in mid sentence. Cut the proofing time and......

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

watch it carefully.  Might have to shorten both proofs.  There is a trick with the bench scrapers and shaping wet dough.  I know someone has the video handy.  I'm in the middle of a thunder storm.  Crazy.  Sorry about that interruption.  

Breadandwine's picture
Breadandwine

Great feedback - sounds like you're really enjoying this. :)

The way I treat my 70% hydration dough is to give it several short kneadings - about 20 seconds each time, 10 or so minutes apart - using just enough oil to enable me to handle it. I stretch it out from the sides, then fold it back into the middle. I do that several times, then leave it on the worktop with the mixing bowl inverted over it. Each time you come back to it, it's less sticky.

I only ever bake my loaves in a tin (much prefer even-sized slices), but someone else will be along to advise about the rest.

Just looked up t55 - can't find out what percentage protein that is, but you really need to be using a bread flour with the protein in the range of 12-14 - contains more gluten. That will certainly help with the 70% hydration.

 

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

I think my Type T55 French white flour is 11.5% protein. I decided to use this type because it still has its enzymes left in, is less processed, and therefore easier to digest. Do you think this is enough protein to get 'form' in my baking? Also I have just bought a new sack (25kg) so I won't be changing flour for a couple of months at least!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

flatten out if they get too wet and they will ferment much faster too.  The way to get more flavor and keep the hydration from getting too high is to make a poolish with 10% prefermented flour over 12 hours with a pinch of yeast.  The small poolish will slow things down when it hits the dough flour and water and bring out even mire flavor..  Many people can't tell the difference  between a poolish yeast bread and one that uses a bunch of commercial yeast and no poolish......but some claim they can.

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

I have heard back from my flour supplier. The protein content of my French T55 flour is 10.5% so lower than I thought. Is this the reason for some of my wetter loaves flattening out and not being able to retain their 'form'?

Bakery Bill

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

egg white trick.  When measuring the water, toss in an egg white and beat it up a little before adding to the flour.  Eggs are full of protein and will so make lots of protein connections  with the bread protein.  You get added protein and better shape.  Try it!

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

Thanks Mini Oven I will try that. Sounds like a bit of the fortifying I do when I make brioche dough. PS. How small is your oven?

Bakery Bill

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I have a 500g flour loaf in the oven.  A one kilo loaf of white bread, perhaps 1200g is about the max.  I just barely get a 12" pullman pan in and positioned diagonal for better circulation.   Does that help?    

Working on a WFO presently with much more room.  We are getting a lot of rain at the moment  and busy with many other things like land slides.  Right now we are 5 bread eaters so I baked a loaf yesterday for dinner,  8 kaisers this morning for breakfast and have one in the oven on a timer.  Love that timer!  I set it and walk away.  I go up and down by 10 minutes for heavier or slightly larger loaves.  My butter can steamer sits on the bottom between the coils and the black baking tray is upside down on the bottom shelf with upper and lower heat.   

Mini

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

Mine is a Stoves with two ovens both electric convection (and one with a auto timer!) Sorry I don't understand some of the things you speak of: pullman, WFO, kaisers, butter can steamer are all a mystery to me. Is this the language difference?

Bakery Bill

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I think a picture might help.  The "pullman" is a baking tin with a slide on lid.  WFO is wood fired oven.   "Kaisers" are an Austrian hard roll made with white wheat.  A butter can steamer is an empty butter can I use to steam up my little electric oven by adding boiling water and sitting it on the bottom of my oven.  It's a mini oven, I have used many different mini ovens over the years because I find myself in different countries where full size ovens are not provided and I end up buying a table top one for my stay.  I travel a lot.  Right now I'm in Laos for a couple of years.  My home kitchen is in Austria.  

I will add a photo, just wait a bit.  :)  oops, knew I forgot something... the pullman pan... oh well, you can get an idea of what I'm talking about.  The light is rather dark as it is raining. There are two rolls left, um one now, and a little end from last night's loaf.  Todays loaf is gathering strength for tonight's feast.  :)     Where are you, Bill?

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

Thanks Mini, your bread looks delicious. Is that a rye bread sliced open? I don't seem to be able to get the open crumb that you manage. Still I only took up baking bread when I retired last April so there is time to learn yet. I admire your determination to use the same mini oven where ever you go. It looks like our microwave but more complicated.

I live in England in the Midlands and when I joined the Fresh loaf I had no idea it was USA based. I probably wouldn't have if I had known but you are all so friendly and get back to me with useful suggestions. I made pizza bases for 5 today. 500 flour to 300 water, lots olive oil, and they rose perfectly. I think I should have blind baked them for a few minutes before heaping the toppings because they were nice crisp edges but a bit soggy on the bottoms. I did the second proving in a good coating of olive oil & then rolled them out. Next time I will skip this step and roll out from knocked back dough then prove a second time (say 20 mins?), blind bake for 3 minutes at 220 centigrade, apply toppings, bake for 10-12 minutes and see how they come out. Does this make sense to you?

Bakery Bill

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

The only "mini oven" that I carry with me is me.  Lol.  I pick up a small oven in every new location and leave it behind.  I have baked in a variety of mini ovens thru the years.   Yes, TFL was American based but Floyd moved to Canada so one might say it's Canadian or better said, North American.  But it's not limited at all and the site is global in loafing.  I just heard an explosion and no warning horns before it.  Gosh I hope it wasn't a bad accident...  Be right back. 

...One of the big gravel trucks from the quarry blew a tire. 

Pullman baking pans  LINK 

Pre baking pizza... at 200°C to 220°C     I'd go for 10 to 12 minutes, just before the bubbles or crust starts to brown otherwise if the crumb isn't set it will be too doughy even with longer baking.  It's good to make sure it is baked before adding the toppings and then bake it with the toppings until the bottom and tops are brown and crispy to your liking.   When I use this method of pizza making, I bake the crusts ahead of time sometimes freeze them.  Prick the naked pizza dough all over with a fork to avoid getting a large pita bread pocket or balloon.   :)

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

Don't know how you did this but when I tried it just said it was unable to upload! Bill

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

too many of those pixel thingamabobs.   Try making it smaller.  That didn't help did it?  Ask some young blood to help out.  There are instructions in the FAQ's  It seems like a long about way to get a picture posted so play around.

My computer takes a long while to upload.  Sometimes it takes a while for me to see posted pics as well.  My connection could be better.  Most videos I can't see.   

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

PS. Over here a Pullman is a grand railway carriage usually associated with Steam engines or the Orient Express.

Maverick's picture
Maverick

That is where they get the name from. The tin looks like a pullman car. It is what is used to make pain de mie.

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

I gather Obama is over visiting you all. I expect the rain is the monsoon but we had a storm yesterday that swamped the roads with water grids blown up by the torrent of water trying to escape. I notice its very humid here considering its September. I expect that will make the bread rise better! Look for the positive. They are supposed to be clearing old war unexploded bombs so maybe that was the explosion?

Thanks for the advice on pizza dough. I hadn't thought of pricking with a fork, and I will blind bake. I have tried freezing but don't find they come out very well. The yeast doesn't recover well from freezing. Also I baked using a tomato & garlic Wessex Mill flour (10.3% protein) today and the loaf came out really well. Haven't cut into it yet but the rise in the oven was exemplary as were the two proves. I used 300 water to 500 flour again so we will see how it eats at lunch/tea time.

Bakery Bill

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

OK so I've been watching Paul Hollywood on Bake-off and they had to make a bread I had never heard of called Fougasse. God what a mess they made. Then I saw Paul H actually on his own Bakers Masterclass program making it again and thought I would have a go. What a brilliant bake. Sorry I tried to post a photo but it seems impossible with this sites software but here is my simplified recipe.

Fougasse Recipe

Ingredients
  • 350ml tepid water
  • 1 tsp sugar
  • 7g Dried yeast
  • 500g Strong white flour
  • 10g Sea salt
  • 30g Olive oil
  • 2 tsp of: Sage, Rosemary & Thyme

Decorate with:-

  • ½ tsp dried oregano
  • Freshly ground salt, pepper & olive oil
Method
  1. Add the yeast, sugar & tepid water, mix & grow for 15mins.
  2. Mix the flour, salt & oil together to form a dough, mix at speed 4 for 10 mins until smooth and stretchy. Add the rosemary, sage and thyme and mix for 1 minute.
  3. Leave the dough to rest for 45-60 minutes to double in size.
  4. Divide the dough in half
  5. Lift each piece of dough onto baking parchment and spread out into flat ovals. Using a pizza cutter make cuts, forming a leaf design(as in the photo above) then stretch the dough out slightly to emphasise the holes.
  6. Cover & prove for 20 mins whilst pre-heating oven to 220°C.
  7. Brush with Olive oil & sprinkle with dried Oregano & freshly ground salt & pepper.
  8. Bake at 220°C for 15-20 mins until golden & crispy/crunchy.
  9. Cool on wire rack.

Yummy

Bakery Bill

Maverick's picture
Maverick

Personally, I would split the difference between the 300 and 350 ml water and use 325ml to 500g flour. I would say that 65% hydration is a more "typical" in french breads. It is not too dry, but not so wet that it is difficult to work with.

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

I completely agree. I thought my Fougasse looked better than Paul Hollywoods! but I have already changed my recipe to put 325 ml water in it. Thanks for your reply. Bakery Bill

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

recipe.  a 70% hydration one... reduce the water just a tad  for 65%   325g water.  

I tend to use AP ( or 100 rye, 200 bread flour and 200 AP ) and a teaspoon of malt instead/or brown sugar.  8g salt

Those leave designs are real plants here, got a variety for inspiration.  Love the bread with garlic all over them, real messy like and chopped black olives,  Hubby not keen on Rosemary.   I like a twist of lemon above a finished one.  

Getting myself hungry here....

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

Yes me too. Its lunch time here. How's Laos?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

very hot when the sun shines.  Nice when there's a breeze.  Moss grows on everything.  Orchids look great!  Sun goes down earlier now and street lights go on at 6pm. Seems strange to have the warm temps but not the sunlight late into the day.  Does cool off at night and become pleasant.  Green mango eating is popular here and I just might grate some for a bread.  

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

Hmm. My wife is just making Mango chilli chutney so the house smells of vinegar. Are green mangoes just unripe and not very sweet or juicy? Sorry I'm probably ignorant and its a difference species? Anyway I was watching something the other day and the baker said that anything liquid added to the recipe should be counteracted by more flour. Don't know how you calculate it but sounds like good advice. Let me know how it comes out.

Not hot here. Autumn is coming. My bakery (part of our utility room) was 19 degrees C this morning. Every week the temperature drops. I seem to get good proving though by starting with tepid water (30 seconds in microwave) and growing the yeast with a teaspoon of sugar. Is this common practise or just my science background?

Bakery Bill

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

And yes I will cut the hydration & use about 325 ml next time.

 

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

I've been busy in the Bakery again this morning making 15x 60g Bagels. They are delicious but even though I decorated with egg yolk & poppy seeds they look a bit scruffy in shape. I think this is because my recipe is wrong in the order of things.

Bagel Recipe:-

Ingredients
  • 300ml water
  • 20g Honey
  • 7g Dried yeast
  • 500g Strong white flour
  • 10g Sea salt
  • 30g Olive oil
  • 1 tsp baking soda
  • 1 egg yolk for glazing
  • Poppy seeds to decorate

 

Method
  1. Add the yeast, honey & tepid water, mix & grow for 15mins.
  2. Mix the flour, salt & oil together to form a dough, mix at speed 4 for 10 mins until smooth and stretchy.
  3. Leave the dough to rest for 45-60 minutes to double in size.
  4. Weigh the dough into 15x 60 g pieces, round into balls, and rest for 30 mins then stick your oiled finger through the middle & spin to make rings.
  5. Pre-heat oven to 180°C & put pan water on to boil. Add baking soda
  6. Place each bagel into boiling water for 30 secs, remove onto a parchment covered baking sheet and glaze with the egg yolk, sprinkle with poppy seeds.
  7. Bake at 180°C for 20-25 mins until golden.
  8. Cool on wire rack.

 

Should it read roll pieces into balls and stick an oiled finger through & spin to stretch the dough, THEN rest for 30 mins? Surely this would make the bagels puff up better in the boil and make them more circular?

Bagels

Let me know if you can see this photo.

Bakery Bill

Breadandwine's picture
Breadandwine

Hi BB

I agree with your last comment - that's what I've always done. And, when I used to brush them with an egg glaze (I'm a vegan now, so I miss this stage), I used to put them straight into the oven from the pan, wait until they've developed a bit of crust, take them out, glaze them, then put them back in to finish baking. There was always a risk of them deflating whilst brushing them with the glaze.

Unable to see the pic, I'm afraid.

I'm now just about to make my Saturday pizzas - with a glass of homemade stout at the ready!

I'm in Taunton. BTW.

ATB, B&W

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

I'm a brewer as well. Just started again after many years of not having the time. Full mash here. What about you? BB

Breadandwine's picture
Breadandwine

I'm afraid I make my stout from a kit - using spraymalt instead of sugar. Make my own wine as well - it all seems to go well with making my own bread.

No problems with 3 provings - as long as there is a final prove before cooking. 

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

Get yourself a Burco boiler from Amazon and try a mash. It's very satisfying. Have you ever tried using your brewers yeast in bread baking or visa versa? BB

Breadandwine's picture
Breadandwine

But, basically, I'm just too lazy. I have a foolproof method for producing a very tasty stout, with minimum effort - coincidentally, I made a batch tonight, which took me about 20 minutes.

"Have you ever tried using your brewers yeast in bread baking or visa versa?"

No, I've never tried that - I read long ago that, although they will still work, you're better off using the specific yeasts for the job. Similarly, I've only once used my stout in a 'beer bread'. The resulting, very slight, increase in flavour convinced me that you're better off making a normal loaf - and drinking your pint!

:)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Here is Floyd's bagels to compare.  

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/recipes/bagels

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

OK so Floyd proves 3 times with 20 mins either side of the hole punching twirling business. I can see this would work. I will try shaping then proving next time. BB

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

ditto

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

so it works for you.   Our clouds have changed direction and shape, time to check the overall Asia weather map, crazy weather.  

Still looking into the green mango info.  I cubed one I found rather too sour and added to my rice pilaff.  Yes they are rather dry and firm but soften up nicely adding a slightly sour note.  Most eat raw cut into sticks, like carrots but not like carrots, tasting more like pickles.  Some are amazingly mild, and there is a trick to that.  Details later.  :)

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

Love this bread but I have a few questions for anyone out there who regularly bakes this delicacy. Nigella seeds in with flour at the beginning or sprinkled on during shaping? Butter, margarine or olive oil to enrich the dough during shaping? Saffron to colour the dough yellow or not? Bake hot & fast or cooler and more slowly with a lid? Enrich the dough with egg & butter or not? Egg wash to finish with a shine or not?

Bakery Bill's picture
Bakery Bill

Anyone out there?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I don't know the bread.