The Fresh Loaf

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Sourdough problem/question oven-spring

Kate_L's picture
Kate_L

Sourdough problem/question oven-spring

Hello,

My name is Kate & I am new here.  I am an experienced bread baker but new to sourdough.  I have a son with tummy issues and the new diet he is on is no wheat  - except for long fermented sourdough breads which apparently have all the bad stuff digested by the yeast & bacteria. 

I have a starter going and it is sour and strong (doubles in 4-6 hours when fed).  I feed it with half wheat & half white and a touch of salt (my theory being that I will select for starter critters that perform well even with a bit of salt mixed in).  So far I have stored it on the counter & not in the fridge.

So here is my problem.  If I ferment it on the countertop it overproofs rapidly and I don't get a long enough rise to destroy those bits that make tummies unhappy.  I have switched to just one shaping & one long proof so I don't overdeflate the dough (I need to practice my dough handling for sourdough - with yeast bread I have always punched it all the way down and still gotten great big holes and delicious bread - but when I did this with sourdough I got a really dense loaf).  So I make the dough, knead to develop gluten, form loaves (in loaf pans - helps wetter dough keep its shape) and either let it partially proof and put it in the fridge or put it in the fridge right away.  Either way I am getting what seems to be underproofed bread and no oven spring (I use a humid oven since I love that thick crust big holes of artisan type loaves - never done them in a pan before though).  Even after I take it out & put it in a warm environment it refuses to rise much more (I even tried a heating pad).  Can the cold permanently retard my wild starter?  It doesn't when I bake normal yeast bread.  I have refridgerated dough before so I could bake fresh pitas every day and it was fine. 

Any suggestions? 

I have thought for next time I could create a cool rise box using a cooler and some cold water to let it proof at a cool temperature for a long time without chilling all the way down.

Thanks for your patience with a newbie.

Kate

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the bulk rise. If you let it almost double and then deflate the dough while shaping, you might get a better crumb.  Or let the kneaded dough rise about a third and then tuck into the refrigerator to slow rise.  Re shape (no punching) the following day and let it rise in a form or in a floured lined basket until ready to bake, about 3/4 risen, not double.  That would over ferment the dough.  Sourdough is a much slower process than a yeasted loaf (generally.)

Kate_L's picture
Kate_L

Mini,

I think I do need to add back in the bulk rise.  I eliminated it at least partially because my father who has experimented with sourdough and is also a bread baker said that he has had trouble doing more than one ferment because the sourdough seems to "eat up all the starch" and not have enough fuel left to rise again.  I figured it was slower but the other day I was up until 2am & finally just baked because I couldn't get the refridgerated loaf to rise anymore.  When I baked it I got a brown crust though so it wasn't because it had eaten up all the sugar.

I will add back in the bulk ferment and then do a cool rather than cold rise.

Thanks for the suggestions,

Kate

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Does he mean the sourdough dough tends to go slack?  

If so, that is typical of sourdoughs in comparison to just yeasted doughs.  Dough often flattens out but if you find your dough rising more out than up, give it some stretch & folds to bring the "Body" back into the dough.  

Simply flip over the dough (top side down) pull out the four corners one at a time (I tend to do opposites) stretch away from the main section of dough and gently fold over the body of the dough trying not to trap air.  

If you feel the dough is still very shapeless, do it again but don't stretch fast and often forcing the dough to tear.  

Flip the top side back up and tuck under the corners and let it continue to bulk rise.  Depending on the hydration and flours in the dough, a sourdough needs 2 to 4 sets of these kinds of folds until the final shaping and rise.

Try it.  

Kate_L's picture
Kate_L

Mini,

I did do it this evening with a high hydration dough.  The folding is really easy and does increase tension.  I think my Dad literally meant that he wasn't getting any more rise out of his sourdough after he had done 2 punch downs.  But I don't think he knows the folding technique which keeps a lot of that gas still in the dough.  Like me he is used to working with just storebought yeast and lower hydration doughs.  It seems like sourdough produces a lower volume of gas than commericial yeast so you have to kind of conserve it. 

If it works for me he will be getting lessons this summer as well as some of my starter when I visit. 

I just put my first high hydration loaf into a cool riser improvized with bricks, a styrofoam cooler, and coolish water.  I am planning to bake in the morning and let it proof overnight.  We will see how it goes.  I will report back.  I am a bit worried that it will overproof but as they say nothing ventured nothing gained.  & my partner loves dense bread so I am covered no matter what.

Have a good night.

Kate

Kate_L's picture
Kate_L

Well I tried the stretch & fold & came up with an acceptable loaf with good texture and crumb.  I love it but may have to invest in some proofing baskets because I would rather not have to use a pan (more yummy crust!)

Here is one of my earlier tries with to dense results and no oven spring.

Here is the most recent which is much better.  I did start using bread flour so I guess I can't chalk it all up to technique.  It is so much chewier and more flavorful.

Thanks for all the advice and info.  I need to read through all the comments I have missed while I was off doing other things but I wanted all of you to know you really helped.  This was done with 3 hours or so of stretch & fold and then a cool rise in my improvised proofing box (cooler, bricks, and cool water) for about 13 hours.  It is half whole wheat and half bread flour.

Got photos to show?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

coming up.  I improvise proofing baskets all the time.  A draped sieve or plastic bowl or nest of twisted towels...

Kate_L's picture
Kate_L

Mini, I got the pics up.  Took me a minute to figure it out.  With how wet the dough is I can't imagine anything it wouldn't completely stick to and without support it spreads out shortly after the stretch and fold.  I may have to try a basket & rice flour - but a 13 hour rise in a very humid proofing box?  I am almost afraid to try. 

Hey have you ever done 100% whole wheat sourdough.  Does the stretch and fold method hold up OK and produce chewy texture even with all that bran to cut the gluten??

Kate

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

shaped proofs.  How much pre-fermented flour and what kind of flour are you using at what hydration.  I skip the bulk ferment all the time in the AZ summer with an 86 F kitchen.  By the time 2 hours of slap and folds and stretch and folds are done, the dough has already been been fermenting like crazy.  i just shape it abd put it in the fridge for a=n 18 hour cold proof and it usually over proofs in the cold.  I just bake it straight out of the oven but since it has risen 100% there isn't much spring or bloom but the crumb is fine.n  So it isn't the cold that is the problem   but the formula likely is.

Don't punch down dough.  Gently degas the big bubbles but leave the gas created generally intact.  This punching down thing is a hold over from the old days when bakers didn't know the science of baking and before new techniques were developed to make much better bread.  Once you get the quirks of SD down you will be hooked:-) 

Kate_L's picture
Kate_L

dabrownman,

I would love to have a surface on which I can slap and fold.  Tiled kitchen.  I also need to work on my dough handling for high hydration dough too - I don't have much experience with them and lower hydration doesn't need that kind of handling  Maybe I should try putting it in the fridge when it is almost totally proofed.  I was just worried about the long term strain on that gluten membrane.  Worth a try though.

I think I will try a bulk ferment first with maybe some stretch & fold in the bowl and then put it in a cool rise box instead of the fridge.  Its worth a try.  I learned to bake bread from my Mum who made all our bread.  She taught me the punch down and honestly I have never had trouble with it with yeast dough.  But sourdough is a different beast.

Thanks,

Kate

 

Elagins's picture
Elagins

Yes, a sour culture is a more like a condominium than a symbiosis, but that's semantic. Fact is, a healthy starter will consist only of yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) and a strain of lactic-acid producing bacteria or LAB (typically Lactobacillus sanfransicensis). Both compete for sugars in the dough that are the product of amylase enzyme degradation of complex carbs (i.e., starches). The enzymes, btw, are generally present in wholegrain flours and are added via malted barley flour in most enriched patent flours

The activity of both yeast and LAB track with temperature. Yeast activity peaks at about 82F and LAB activity at around 91F. The "sweet spot," i.e., where both activity curves cross is 84F or so. All of which simply says that it's possible to manage the acidity and leavening power of a sour culture by adjusting the temperature at which it ferments --- nearer to 90F for more acidity; nearer to 82F for more leavening power.

Hydration also plays a role in acid formation. Lower hydration sponges, say from 60-80%, and lower temperatures favor the production of acetic acid (think vinegar), while higher hydration, of 100-120% and higher temperatures favor lactic acid (think yogurt).

Finally, adding salt isn't going to hurt your culture, especially if you're more interested in acidification than leavening. Salt is a yeast inhibitor that attracts water away from the yeast cells, thereby slowing their activity. In fact, the Germans have developed a salted sponge called a Mohnheimer Salt Sour that typically takes 24-36 hours to mature, versus the more usual 6-12 hours. Just limit the salt to under 2% of total flour weight in the culture.

Hopefully, this bit of chemistry will give you a leg up on managing your sour cultures. Good luck!!!

Stan Ginsberg
theryebaker.com

Kate_L's picture
Kate_L

It is nice to have the info on how it actually works.  I am a biologist by trade & more info always makes me feel like I can manage better.  I had read in some other spot that the lactobacilllus actually does better at the low temperatures so that putting dough in the fridge would slow everybnody down but yeast more so a better sour flavor would be generated without overproofing.  Your info seems to contradict that - though it sounds like you are pretty well informed.  Maybe if I have time between baking & chasing boys I can look at some of the original literature. 

I guess I need to read a bit more about what bacteria are breaking down the fructans I want to get rid of.  I am not sure which bacterial group I need to be fostering.  I think commercial bakeries (the commercial sourdoughs were what was tested) usually use a high hydration dough so I will try to lean that way.  So I probably want the lactobaccilli. I thought they only attacked lactose though (again more reading needed). 

I am not using too much salt & my starter looks good but it may explain a little of why I am getting a dense product.  Maybe I just need to wait longer and not assume I should follow other folks timelines. 

Thanks again,

 

Kate

Elagins's picture
Elagins

Actually, you're partly right, Kate. Yeast goes dormant at temperatures below ~46F (well above standard fridge temperatures of 36-40F), while LAB remains active down to ~38.5F, albeit at very low levels. So as a practical matter a retarded sponge will (slowly) get more acidic with no appreciable increase in leavening power or sugar conversion by the yeast, which leaves more nutrient for the LAB. 

As far as I know, LAB will metabolize most or all simple sugars (glucose, fructose, maltose, lactose). Some strains, like L. acidopholus, favor glucose and fructose; I haven't been able to find L. sanf's preferences, however, although I'm sure it's buried somewhere in the literature.

Stan

Kate_L's picture
Kate_L

Hey Stan,

Just a thought.  Do you suppose that by storing a starter in the fridge all the time and never allowing it to warm up to ferment you would loose a lot of your yeast and have a mostly LAB dominated starter?  I know folks do store starters in the fridge all the time and mine needs to go in soon now that it is well established.  So is it better to let it warm up when you feed it to give those yeast beasts a fighting chance?

 

Thanks,

 

Kate

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

first and the yeast strain that is commonly found with LSanfran is C Holmii or C millerii, is maltose negative which is why they like to be in SD cultures together - they don't compete for food so they make perfect partners.  LAB need maltose and fructose to produce acid and luckily yeast produce fructose when they metabolize other sugars - there is one of the symbiotic relationships but there are several more.

When LAB run put of fructose, they stop producing acid and make ethanol and CO2 instead - just like yeast.  But cultures can have any number of acid tolerant LAB and yeast besides these two and LAB will metabolize just about any sugar present if maltose and fructose are not found - they are like sharks they prefer seals but will eat people if necessary to stay alive.  Yeast aren't much better.....

Also Saccharomyces cerevisiae, commercial yeast, is usually not found in SD cultures.  It isn't as acid tolerant like other yeast strains that out compete it and are found in SD cultures.  There have been many tests done where SD cultures are infected with large doses of S Cerevisiae but it was wiped out in the culture within 2 feeding cycles - 48 hours - because it can't that the low acid environment created by the LAB.  SO the LAB create an atmosphere where only certain acid tolerant yeast can survive well - another symbiotic relationship.

A very good layman's explanation of what is going on in SD cultures can be found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sourdough  and if you follow the footnote links you will taken to the scientific journals that are the basis of the post.

Also the idea that SD yeast go dormant at 46 F is also not quire right.  Both LAB and yeast metabolism and reproductive rates are slowed greatly though.  Yeast reproduce 14 times slower at 46 F than they do at 72 F while LAB reproductive rates are 7 times slower.  This shows that low temperatures will promote more LAB than yeast at that temperature if it is maintained for very long time with emphasis on a very long time.  At 36 F LAB and yeast are still reproducing but at even much slower rates, requiring longer times to promote acid over CO2 production.  But this is the basis for part of the NMNF starter process to achieve more sour bread though long retards for starters at 36 F for up to 24 weeks.

Here is Ganzel's data on how temperature affects a sample SD culture .  Ganzel's research paper of SD cultures not only points out the effects of temperature, but also the effects of acid, salt and ethanol.  Just terrific reading for those that want to know the nuts and bolts of SD cultures.  What isn't really covered is hydration or the buffering effects of the bran in whole grains that allows LAB to keep producing acid and reproducing at acid levels in the culture that would normally stop them from doing so.  But other research in this area is what led to using the low hydration NMNF starter to build high hydration bran levains in order to promote more acid in bread - especially rye ones, where acid is so important to control amylase activity and produce a bread where the sour is not overpowered by the bold taste of grain itself.  Happy baking  

Reproduction Rates of LAB and YeastL/Y 
T(°F)T (°C)L. SF IL. SF IIYeastRatio
     36        20.0190.0160.0053.787
     39        40.0260.0220.0083.147
     43        60.0350.0310.0132.634
     46        80.0470.0430.0212.222
     61      160.1440.1500.1141.265
     64      180.1870.1980.1631.145
     68      200.2390.2590.2251.064
     72      220.3010.3320.2951.021
     75      240.3740.4160.3651.024
     79      260.4530.5080.4141.094
     82      280.5350.5980.4171.284
     86      300.6090.6720.3461.760
     90      320.6580.7060.2023.255
     93      340.6570.6710.05013.127
Elagins's picture
Elagins

Apologies for the inaccuracies in my post: they were the result of over-hasty review of reference material and something I should have known better. In fact, my reference temperature/activity curves come from Ganzle's research, which tracks C. millerii activity and not S. cerevisiae.

As for my "dormant" comment, the low level of yeast activity below 46F and LAB activity below 36F, while not technically dormancy are, in my view, close enough so that for all practical purposes reproduction slows to a near-standstill at those temps.

Still, an excellent and comprehensive presentation of all the things I should have said.

Well done!

Stan

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

idea for a very long cold retard for a rye starter to increase the LAB to Yeast ratio in the starter - it isn't so much that LAB like cold better than yeast and they crank out the acid  - they don't...... it is the very, long, long time the culture is at those temperatures that provides the difference.  LAB love the low 90's F the best by far and the yeast is restricted at those temperatures so, if the LAB don't run out if food, they can really crank out the acid for the longer time it takes the yeast to raise the loaf for proof and be ready for the oven at those temperatures.

Now if you use at 24 week retarded rye starter yo make a Bran levain at 92 F and then retard the starter for 36 hours and then use it to ferment and proof a whole grain bread  bread at 92 F - then you would be talking pucker bread if the whole grains weren't so powerful tasting all by themselves.:-)  A white bread made that way might be too sour for humans - but it is on the list for testing.......in 2 more weeks for the rye starter to get to 24 weeks!

I knew you had Ganzel's report and knew better .  I'm always quoting something wrong myself so no worries.  I find this happening more and more as I get older for some reason too!  That editor is never there when you need them:and always there when you don't!

Happy baking Stan

mwilson's picture
mwilson

S.cerevisiae is the most frequently isolated yeast found in sourdough, a fact I've seen written again and again. Commercial yeast is made from selected strains of saccharomyces.cerevisiae favoured for their high gassing power. Typically these strains have a very low tolerance to un-disassociated acetic acid and for additional reasons they are not able to be sustained in a sourdough environment as you point out.

S.cerevisiae exists in the wild, think beer and wine and occurs naturally in sourdoughs, and even in the flour itself.

S.cerevisiae like most yeast prefer glucose and so it can actually co-exist with l.sanfranciscensis without competition, only when glucose is depleted does it feed on maltose.

Something to think about..

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

commercial baker's yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae was isolated from brewers yeast.  Almost all of the wild yeast found in SD cultures and on plans and fruits are members of the Saccharomyces family belonging to a sub group of this family called exigus  .  But not all are acid tolerant. You can't have commercial yeast that is not tolerant of acid like cerevisiae, proven many times, being called the same thing as yeast that are acid tolerant found in SD cultures - this is just bad science and likely a mis appropriation of what the yeast really are.  They are two different strains of yeast in the same saccharomyces family.  The Candida sub group of Exigus that includes Holmaii and Millerii are commonly found in SD cultures and for years scientist called them the same yeast strain but they were eventually separated out.  Originally Exigus was characterized as a version of cerevisiae too.

There is no question that some kind of cerevisiae may have broken off from commercial yeast and has genetically modified itself through natural evolution and selection to become a new acid loving strain of yeast that needs a new name and sub category all its own to separate it from the very different cerevisiae that it came from. Eventually science will catch up with the new name.

Oddly, most of commercial bakers yeast we use today comes from the whisky industry instead of beer.

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Interestingly a recent food programme over here stated how bakers' / brewers yeast originated from forest tree bark!

Commercialisation of yeast simply means it's grown en-mass. One could take any wild yeast strain and grow it on an industrial scale as is commercial yeast, something that happens normally in the brewing industry. Buying a packet of c.milleri of the shelves is quite feasible if there were a market for it. Most wild yeast are acid tolerant including s.cerevisiae. Beer and wine are acid mediums.

A 'strain' is DNA unique. I am a strain of the human species as are you. Candida and exiguous are sub-species, perhaps the equivalent to being part of an ethnic group in the human species.

Wild yeast came first, it is us humans that chose to grow it commercially. On top of that we subject it to selective pressures that select for the more desired strains that meet our demands, e.g, gassing power. Arguably we do the same with our starters but on a much less technologically controlled and scientific manner.

I feel you have it backwards. I see it as thus... s.cerevisiae was always acid loving until we chose for it not be with the want of mass produced bread.

PS. I think I need to drive home the point and fact that s.cerevisiae is a wild yeast as well commercial. S.cerevisiae is a species of which there are many strains, both wild and commercial. Naturally fermented wine and beer select for those wild strains and so does sourdough bread.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

was chosen specifically for commercial mass production for 2 reasons.  One it is easy to breed and mass produce and 2 it makes a lot of CO2.  It isn't acid tolerant as science has proven many times.  There might be some kind of sub category that has branched off from it in the last 150 years that is more acid tolerant today but it isn't the commercial SC we use for bakers yeast today - and DNA testing will easily prove it.  It can't be both acid tolerant and not acid tolerant.  It is one or the other  - not both and we know for a fact that bakers yeast SC is acid intolerant.  What ever they are finding in SD cultures has to be something else that needs a new name to differentiate it from commercial bakers yeast.

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Acid tolerance will vary on a strain by strain basis. While it would be useful to distinguish commercial yeast from wild it's not exactly realistic. S.cerevisiae is a species that has been around since the dawn of fermentation long before we chose to grow it commercially. Wine, like beer fermentation is dominated s.cerevisiae and grape juice has a pH of 2.5-3.8.

All fermented foods and beverages are acidic mediums so these yeasts need to be acid tolerant. Strains of s.cerevisiae selected and grown to become bakers yeast don't need to be as acid tolerant because they suit their purpose.

In the world of SD it is well known that L.sanfranciscensis forms a strong association with c.milleri. In addition another strong association is l.Plantarum with S.cerevisiae which is also commonly found. Durum sourdoughs of southern Italy are often dominated by the latter.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Double post

garybcookin's picture
garybcookin

I am not sure about the salt in the starter this is a new thing I have never heard of. I would say try a batch with out salt and see what you get maybe it would mess with the wild yeast.

I give my sourdough a three hour first rise at room temp 72-76 depending on the day. I then shape and put in my walk in cooler for 10 -15 hours. I then pull it out of the cooler while I get things ready for about 30 minutes before I put it in the proof box at about 90 degrees f with humidty. i know you can't do all this at home but I get good rise and oven spring. It takes about 1 1/2 to 2 hours before it will be ready for the oven. The humidty does make a differance. You can't rush sourdough it like to take time. I also keep my started in the cooler. I pull it when I am going to use it and feed it to replace the volume i needed and let it sit 4-6 hours at room temp untill it looks bubbly and happy before it goes back in the cooler.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

At 4% salt LAB begin to die but yeast are OK up to 8% salt.  The 2% salt in bread or in starters, regulate how fast things happen  - especially for LAB.  Here is Ganzel's research and some from the earliest of scientists who discovered and named L Sanfran

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC106434/

http://discovermagazine.com/2003/sep/featscienceof

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I am not sure about the salt in the starter

The old S.F. bakeries used a sponge which was maintained separately from the dough and contained no salt. It was refreshed approximately every 8 hours as they were baking 24 hours per day. The sponge was approximately 50% hydration and the dough approximately 60% hydration before the addition of the sponge.

The yeast has been renamed since it was first identified. It is known today as Candida humilis.

L.sanfran. more than prefers maltose; it requires it.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

20 years ago this was the scientific fact but like most scientific facts, 97% of them by some estimates, are later proven to be wrong by .......none other than other scientists:-) L.SF prefers maltose but does not require it.  Like most LAB it can metabolize other sugars to survive.  Many experiments over the last 20 years have proven this but it will metabolize all the available maltose first.  

Since S. SF is most always found with C, Homillii in SD cultures.  it is thought that they evolved together developing a symbiotic relationship where the yeast preferred glucose and made maltose from it during metabolism and the LAB took to preferring maltose so they would not compete for food in the culture giving the yeast free reign to produce matose for it.  Staying out of each others way is good in SD cultures and learning to live well in each others by products and waste is a very good thing indeed.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Do you suppose that by storing a starter in the fridge all the time and never allowing it to warm up to ferment you would loose a lot of your yeast and have a mostly LAB dominated starter?  I know folks do store starters in the fridge all the time and mine needs to go in soon now that it is well established.  So is it better to let it warm up when you feed it to give those yeast beasts a fighting chance?

I'm not seeing a hydration for your starter in your posts, but I'll work on the assumption that it's a liquid starter on the order of 100% hydration.

What I do is to keep a jar of liquid starter in the fridge. Before baking I make a flour-and-water slurry and add a small amount of the refrigerated starter to it. I then let it sit for 8 hours and it's ready to bake. I add it to the dough which then proofs for another 8 hours. Total time spent proofing is 16 hours.

"Symbiotic relationship" between yeast and LAB simply means that they don't compete for the available maltose. L.sanfran. requires maltose; C.humilis is incapable of metabolizing it. Baker's yeast, OTOH, can metabolize maltose, so you see the problem with using baker's yeast in sourdough.

Rather than overthinking these things, the best thing to do is simply to try them. Bake a loaf and keep a record of what you've done.

Mark_C's picture
Mark_C

Hi, I have seen a lot of videos where loafs literally explode to triple its size, with nice open crumb. I have been trying couple of weeks and never achieve proper oven spring and all my breads are quite compact. They all taste good, look OK, but I really wish to get DOUBLE the height, and more open crumb (bubbles) inside.

My sourdough is old and strong, with intense smell and bubbles. Dough is rising good during bulk fermenting and proofing, so I guess nothing is wrong with the sourdough starter. I keep the starter in room temperature, at least 12h before baking.

I was following a recipe from here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfWcs2k7oQ4 and following it exactly. Dough lost all the tension, flattened out on a baking stone as a water balloon and ended up as a brick.

Then i tried to reduce hydration a bit and extend the proofing time. I let the dough stay overnight on the kitchen desk (6-7h). The result was much better, I got some oven spring, (about 50%), but the bread was still quite FLAT. 

So i decided to try another option: proof in the fridge for like 12-15hours, then put it right on the baking stone. 

I was trying back and forth with hydration, and proofing time. Tried Dutch oven and baking stone, with water mist and without.. Regardless of what I do.. i NEVER get more rise than 30-50%. 

Recently I made a boule, as follows:

500gr sourdough(starter), 400gr bread flour, 100gr whole flour, 275gr water, 20gr salt.

40 min autolyse

15 min stretch and fold.

5 times fold-relax with 10 minutes intervals

bulk ferment for 4 hours

Fold once again and shape

Proof in the fridge for 15 hours.

 

The result is on the picture below: 

 

I´m running out of ideas what is wrong.

- After bulk ferment the dough have no tension and is very sticky. I have to fold it again in order to be able to shape.

- When putting dough on the stone it keeps its shape, but cutting with razor blade make it flatten out again.

- I use ordinary fine wheat flour, which is recommended for all around-baking of bread, and sweets, not exactly a bread-flour. Maybe it is not good enough? 

Jane Dough's picture
Jane Dough

I am not scientific.  I did however read a lot about the Baker's %. I use no more than 15% starter to my 100% flour if I am retarding in the refrigerator.  I always get a very good rise out of my bake. 

Mark_C's picture
Mark_C

Thanks a lot! I will give it another try :). I used the slap and pull method as shown in the YT video. I was doing it for 15 minutes, before the folding sessions. If i count it as a part of bulk fermenting then it would be almost 6 hours. It is way too much I guess.

Mark_C's picture
Mark_C

What about baking right out from the fridge? Someone says to let it come to room temperature after taking out of a fridge (1-2 hour) others recommend to put it still cold right on the stone? Does it affect the oven raise?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the middle of the loaf.  Score around the top middle so the round loaf has less of a tendency to flatten out.  :)

doughooker's picture
doughooker

dabrownman: Do you have a reference to back the assertion that L.sanfran. does not require maltose? I would be most interested in seeing it.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

that is geared more for the laymen baker.

http://www.classofoods.com/page1_3.html

 

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Nothing in the article you cited contradicts the notion that L.sanfran. requires maltose and can't live without it.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

your question there are several research papers that talk about L San Fran fermenting other sugars when maltose is no around,  But you. you still must have missed this part in the link.

 All sourdough bacteria ferment glucose, maltose and sucrose except L. brevis which does not ferment sucrose. Lactose is also fermented except by L. delbrueckii and L. leichmanii. L. plantarum and L. brevis also ferment pentoses especially arabinose.

L SanFran can ferment any number of sugars but does prefer maltose and will ferment it first. You notice that Fructose is not fermented by LAB.  It is used by LAB as an electron receptor though.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

The point of contention is not whether L.sanfran is capable of fermenting other sugars -- it is -- no argument there. The point of contention is whether L.sanfran will survive in the absence of maltose. It has been well documented that it won't, but you claim subsequent research proves otherwise.

Where is this subsequent research?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Maltose only and glucose only media.  They do this so that they could find out how these LAB metabolize both of these sugars and if there was any interaction between the two.  Here is one such study

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC205458/

L. San Fran grow and multiply in glucose only media. 

doughooker's picture
doughooker

At the USDA lab in Albany, CA they were unable to grow L.sanfran. in pure culture after trying many different sources of carbohydrate including glucose, so they went to Dr. Paul Elliker and Dr. William Sandine at Oregon State University. They found that although it metabolizes several different sugars, L.sanfran "won't grow if maltose is not there". The following statement is as true today as it was in the late '60s.

C. milleri doesn't digest maltose, one of the sugars derived from flour starch. This is unusual for a yeast, and lucky for the bacterium. L. sanfranciscensis, it turns out, can't live without maltose.

http://discovermagazine.com/2003/sep/featscienceof

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

in a mag that turns out to wrong.  L San Fran wasn't ven discovered until 1969 and not publish until 1971 so no one was doing an y lab tests on what it could grow and reproduce on until much later.  You asked for a paper that showed that L SanFran could grow and reproduce on something other than maltose when I showed you one, it somehow wasn't good enough any more.  But there are many more.

The one I showed you talked about the difference in metabolism between L San Fran grown on glucose an grown on maltose.  The difference is that LA San Fran metabolize much faster add put out one glucose as part of the process.  In glucose, the metabolism is slower and no glucose is put out.

The reason L San Fran can live on glucose is quite simple though.  Maltose is nothing more than two glucose modules connected together with a bond.  The first thing that happens when L San Fan metabolizes maltose is to break this bond with a handy enzyme it has in its cell.  This creates 2 glucose units.  The LSF then has 2 other enzymes that break each of these glucose down further.  Since the matose provides 2 glucose units but is glucose that is metabolized either way.  L SF loves the maltose because it gets twice the glucose from it. 

It isn't the maltose it can't live without but the glucose it can't live without in the end.  It is just makes it's own doube portion of glucose when maltose is present becsue it has the enzyme t break it down into two glucose.

Here is patway diagram that explains it all than ls to mwilson

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/40522/lsanfranciscensis-metabolism

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

in a mag that turns out to wrong.  L San Fran wasn't even discovered until 1969 and not publish until 1971 so no one was doing any lab tests on what it could grow and reproduce on until much later.  You asked for a paper that showed that L SanFran could grow and reproduce on something other than maltose when I showed you one, it somehow wasn't good enough any more.  But there are many more.

The one I showed you talked about the difference in metabolism between L San Fran grown on glucose and grown on maltose.  The difference is that LA San Fran metabolize much faster and put out one glucose as part of the process.  With glucose, the metabolism is slower and no glucose is put out.

The reason L San Fran can live on glucose is quite simple though.  Maltose is nothing more than two glucose modules connected together with a bond.  The first thing that happens when L San Fan metabolizes maltose is to break this bond with a handy enzyme it has in its cell.  This creates 2 glucose units.  The LSF then has 2 other enzymes that break each of these glucose down further.  Maltose provides 2 glucose units but is glucose that is metabolized either way.  L SF loves the maltose because it gets twice the glucose from it. 

It isn't the maltose that it can't live without but the glucose it can't live without in the end.  It is just makes it's own double portion of glucose when maltose is present because it has the enzyme that break it down into two glucose.

Here is the pathway diagram that explains it all thanks to mwilson

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/40522/lsanfranciscensis-metabolism

I can see where you thought the way you do because the magazine said the exact same thing long ago. Many people have been foold by bd science reported to bad magazines.  Now we need to break the myth that yeast can't metabolize maltose and that the LAB not eating glucose and yeast not eating maltose is what allows them live symbiotically together - yeast eat maltose too since they have an enzyme, maltase that breaks it down into - 2 glucose too.  Lots of myths in SD bread making it seems

Happy baking 

doughooker's picture
doughooker

L San Fran wasn't ven discovered until 1969 and not publish until 1971 so no one was doing an y lab tests on what it could grow and reproduce on until much later.

In 1971 K&S published the results of their research conducted c. 1969. As has been explained, they couldn't grow it in the USDA lab so they went to OSU where Dr. Sandine got it to grow on maltose. So yes, all kinds of lab work was done in the late '60s culminating in K&S's publication in 1971. The lab work is how they discovered it and were able to publish the discovery.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

metabolizes and lives fine on glucose as has been proven many, many times.  Complex sugars are broken down by living things into simple sugars like glucose to live on - Just like humans do.  

The idea that LSF dies without maltose is utterly and completely wrong - which is your claim that I disagree with.  It does die without glucose though.

PugBread's picture
PugBread

The link you provided to mwilson's pathway illustration shows a pathway that uptakes maltose only. Once inside the cell, the maltose is split and one glucose may be excreted. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/40522/lsanfranciscensis-metabolism

The following source also details the metabolic processes of many lactobacilli, including L. Sanfran,, and it illustrates that L sanfran uptakes only maltose. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3458588/

While the only carbohydrate that it can uptake through it's membrane is maltose, ultimately it is glucose that it converts into energy once inside the cell once it has been split. At least, that's what I understand from the article - and is something I did not know before today.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

From the lips of the man who got it to grow in the lab after they had tried as many as 20 other sugars, it wouldn't grow until it was given maltose. There were three Ph.D. microbiologists working on the project: one from the USDA and two from a university.

Believe whatever you will.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

I'd still like like to see l SanFran live without glucose tbough