Lil advice please

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Rising Okinawa on 26 Feb 2016 at 21:16

I've been playing at baking bread on and off for a few years.  I originally started at the hobby in search of finding a tasty and good textured sandwich bread, which I finally pinned down to a good recipe about a year ago. 

But recently I moved to Okinawa and have decided to make the leap to sourdough.  But I'm running into a fair shar of obstacles. To start what I have sitting on my counter right now is a rye/white flour fed starter at about 75% hydration.  It resides in a nice glass jar with a platic lid which has a series of pinholes in it (for gas expansion).  I've been feeding and loving my starter for almost a month now (first three weeks it was fed white/whole wheat).  It's got a nice smell and easily doubles its bulk in 4-6 hours after feedings. 

However that's where my successes appear to end.  It performs poorly at rising breads (takes over 6 hours with gentle warming and love), my loaves are extremely dense with no large air pockets, and it sometimes leaving my bread entirely to acrid to taste.  

I'm also running into an issue of what is the correct was to run a starter.  Some sights are telling me 1 part water to 2 parts flour and other say 1:1 flour to water. 

Its all just frustrating enough to make me go online and ask for help. 

First you will need to tell us some more details.  1) what is your formula? 2) what method of mixing are you using?

3) What is the temperature of your room when you are letting the dough rise? 4) how are you shaping your dough before baking? 5) how long are you letting the dough rise before shaping and then baking?

All of the above will impact your final loaf.  Also the temperature of your water will impact how long your dough will take to rise.  The amount of starter you use in your formula will also determine how long your bulk rise and final rise can take.  6 hours is not necessarily a long time in sourdough baking.

As far as how you feed your starter, either way you mentioned will work.  I prefer to keep a stiff starter at 66% hydration while many people prefer a liquid starter at 100% or even higher.  You can easily adjust your final formula to compensate for the hydration level of your starter when following different recipes by adjusting the total water content.  A good understanding of bakers math is necessary but not too difficult to grasp.

 

Okay my formula has changed several times since I started: 

100 grams water:200 grams starter:300 grams bread flour 

another was 100g starter, 200g water, 400g flour

I've even tried using an old sandwich recipe: knocking off 50 grams water and 50 grams flour to comp for my 1:1 starter mixture. 

Next, I knead by hand.  I don't own any kind of mixing machine.

my room rests around 65-70 degrees. 

I've tried several shapes: 3 rolles laid next to each other in the bread pan, one big roll done up like a scroll, and lastly just a formed oval in my bread pan. 

And typical rising time has increased and increased since I started, at first 2 hours ,,, now I am up to about 6. 

 

Hope this his helps you help me. 

The formula seems to be okay.  Main reason why your dough is taking so long to rise is because your room temperature is so cold.  I am fortunate enough to have a portable bread proofer which allows me to keep the dough at any temperature I desire. Normally after mixing up the dough I let it rest in a plastic dough rising bucket in my proofer at 78-80 degrees F.  I do this for around 1.5 hours.  I use a mixer and then once I put the dough in the bucket I do several sets of stretch and folds at 20 minute intervals until I feel the dough as gained enough strength.  You can type Stretch and fold in the search bar or do a google search and find some good videos to show you how to do it.  This technique avoids the need to "knead" your dough.  You can put a bowl of boiling hot water inside your oven or microwave and get the temperature close to 80 degrees or at least in the 70's to speed up your initial fermentation.  Afterwards I put the dough in the refrigerator for at least 12-22 hours.  Unlike the comment below, I like to let the dough sit out for an hour before I shape it.  I usually do this in my proofer set to 78 degrees.  Some people do like to shape cold from the refrigerator.  After shaping the dough I usually put it in a basket or banneton and let it proof at 78 degrees for around 1.25 hours depending on the dough.  If your ambient room temperature you are leaving the dough out to proof in is colder you just have to wait longer until the dough is ready.

I use this method most of the time and you can read my posts on this site or my other site www.mookielovesbread.wordpress.com for more details.

I also like to use a pretty high % of preferment in my formulas unlike many people who prefer a smaller %.  I learned this method from Peter Reinhart's book Artisan Breads Everyday.  If you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Regards,
Ian

Yes, there are a lot of different factors that go into 'good' sourdough bread, and it can get quite complicated! So here's a couple of things from me (based on what works for me):

  1. I keep my mother starter at 100% hydration. Sometimes I will lower the hydration for particular breads (in other words, I'll mix a little of my mother starter with more flour than water by weight, to make it 'stiffer'), and sometimes I'll just keep the levain at 100% for other breads (i.e. I'll mix a little of my mother starter with equal amounts of water and flour by weight)
  2. When you refresh your starter, or build a levain from it (a batch of fresh starter for a batch of bread), use only a little bit of the starter as a proportion of the flour (e.g. use 50 grams of starter to 200 grams each of water and flour). That might moderate the "acrid" taste.
  3. After refreshing the starter, or building the levain, leave it for at least 5 hours or overnight so it can develop and get soft, pillowy and bubbly, and will float easily on water
  4. After you've mixed the dough, let it sit for around 4 hours, stretching and folding it in the bowl 3 or 4 times over the first couple of hours. Then, if you can, put it in the fridge for at least 8 hours or overnight. This is called "bulk fermenting", and if you do it in the fridge it's called "retarding" (i.e. slowing down the action of the starter and increasing the time during which flavour and dough character can develop).
  5. Shape the cold dough, then let it rise again for 1.5 to 2 hours before baking. Handle it gently at this point; you don't want to squish out all that lovely air! That will get you a more open crumb (more holes on the inside of the loaf)

Hope this all helps!

I suggest trying "The Rule Of 240" and see if that helps you out. I started to learn to bake when the weather here in California was just starting to warm up, so all was well until we got to the winter and the the temperature suddenly dropped. My bread wasn't happy and neither was I until I read and followed that rule, then immediately my bread came back to life. Try it and let us know how you do.

the Rule of 240?  All my searches here on the site lead to a link at sourdoughhome.com that is now dead.  And when I search Google, it finds a "Rule 240" that relates to FAA regulations about airfares.

Thanks, 

     --Mike

The advice given here was outstanding! I implemented your advice today and .... Wow different! 

I'be switched to a 1:1 hydration starter (which is now called Joshua because I read its unlucky to not name your starter).  He's a swell guy that Joshua

To tell, I fed my stater around 1 am this morning (I'm a night owl) .. 7 am this morning I got up and mixed 140 grams of my starter with 280 grams of water, 70 grams of rye and 310 grams of bread flour. 

I let it rest 30 minutes and then folded it for 15.  i think I over hydrated cause it never came together and it never released from the counter easily, but oh well.  

Next I let it rise 2 hours while I took the family to the park, came back, fold and stretch a few more times and then into the loaf tin it went.  Final rise was 1 hour in my oven accompanied by a large pot of boiling water and my iron skillet (heated). 

Then i took everything out of the oven preheated to 375 and baked for 35 minutes. I got a great texture (moist and springy), and almost the taste I've been seeking. 

My only trouble today was the loaf bottom stuck to my tin (I greased with shortening) but here is my results today vs. my latest fail.

well I can't load photos from my phone atm, i'll figure that out later and post the photos  

Your starter is 1:1, meaning half flour, half water - ergo 70g of each.  So:

310g bread flour + 70g rye + 70g starter flour = 450g

280g recipe water + 70g starter water = 350g

350/450 x 100 = 77.7% hydration, which in line with your estimate, is pretty high.  The rye flour will suck up some of that, but it makes sense that the dough kept sticking to the counter.

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Edo Bread on 3 Mar 2016 at 06:40

What you might want to do some searches for is DDT or Desired Dough Temperature. I think you will find some ways that can be more accurate or do some of the simplified versions that end up like the Rule of 240.