The Fresh Loaf

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Difficulties with Convection Ovens and Hearth Stones

RedsBreadsLady's picture
RedsBreadsLady

Difficulties with Convection Ovens and Hearth Stones

Hi all!

 

I've been working in a coffee shop for a few months, trying to get their bakery department dialed in. Most recently, I've been tasked to start baking bread for the bistro the company is also establishing, and I'm having trouble. They would like sourdough or something similar, using the 60% hydration starter that I use in the sourdough croissants.

I have a FibraMent stone and use a Montague Convection oven (Which is a real blessing, since this model has the option of turning the fan OFF) and would like to be able to use the loaf pans, but I'm also considering free-form batards on the stones, as well. While I'm still experimenting with steaming procedures (my most successful attempts have been to spray the loaves with warm water before baking and tenting with foil for the first ten minutes of the bake), most of my crusts are dull and hard instead of shiny, producing a denser product than I'd like.

Most of the whole wheat and rye recipes I've used have been too dry for the owner's taste, and he has asked for a "white" sourdough with a similar airy crumb, with solely bread flour. Does anyone have any suggestions for producing something using the percentage of hydration in my starter so I can finally stop experimenting?

Many thanks!

Esme`

AlanG's picture
AlanG

it's the hydration of the final dough that makes the difference.  It may be your "too dry" bread is starting from a low hydration dough.  You need to post a recipe so that we can help you out here.

RedsBreadsLady's picture
RedsBreadsLady

So sorry, here's the most recent formula I've been using:

 

Bread flour 3# 3.6 oz

Rye 2.6 oz

Water 2# 3.6 oz

Salt 1.2 oz

Starter 15.8 oz

This is autolysed for 20 minutes, mixed, bulk fermented for 2 hours, divided and shaped, retarded overnight and baked off at 440F. The crust is usually lack luster--still trying to determine the best method for steaming without damaging the oven...

 

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

Try starting the loaves off at the highest temperature your oven can manage for the first 15 minutes (assuming it's not a pizza oven capable of furnace-like performance), then turn it down to ~430°F for the rest of the bake.

Steaming during that first 15 minutes would definitely be a good idea if you want a substantial crust.

Reynard's picture
Reynard

Some more "boing" in your loaf, add oil to your dough... You could try this (and scale up to what you need):

410g flour

9g salt

4g yeast (or as much / little yeast as you have time)

240g warm water

60g oil

45g rye starter

40g oatbran

This is my everyday bread. The recipe is pretty flexible - I vary the flour according to my mood, but it's nice enough with all white. If you've time, take out 100g of the flour and water both, and mix together with a pinch of yeast and leave for 6 to 8 hours, or overnight before making the bread, then put that into the dough. That, plus the addition of the sourdough starter, gives a nice loaf with good flavour.

Ever tried baking your breads under a cloche or in a chicken brick? Not sure if that's viable for a commercial operation though...

 

RedsBreadsLady's picture
RedsBreadsLady

Thanks so much for the tip and the recipe!

I haven't thought much about putting oil in the formula, I'll have to give that a try and see how it turns out...

 

I have tried different techniques for steaming that are similar, but like you said, not sure if I can afford 16 chicken bricks! 

Reynard's picture
Reynard

My oven is vented so I can't steam - hence the chicken brick... 16 - yep, that'd put a dent in any budget for sure...

I can only fit one brick into my oven, so I bake my loaves sequentially if i'm baking more than one, keeping the shaped loaves in the fridge until I need them, and taking them out 20 mins before they're needed (a timer is invaluable here). If I'm baking a boule as opposed to a batard, then I use a large stock pot inverted over a baking sheet, which works well enough :-)

Hope the oil works for you. Not only does it give you softer bread, it also improves the keeping qualities. I use ordinary vegetable oil (rape seed) in mine.

T. Fargo's picture
T. Fargo

My oven is vented so I can't steam

My oven is vented too.  I line my center oven rack with Dough Joe stones and place a water pan on the bottom rack, then proceed to preheat normally.  When it's ready to bake, I block the vents with a bit of aluminum foil, loosely balled up.  I place my loaf on the stones and pour in a cup or so of boiling water onto the steam tray and close the door swiftly.  I remove the foil after 10 or 15 minutes and I get great oven spring with this method.  Give it a try and let me know if this works for you, okay?

BetsyMePoocho's picture
BetsyMePoocho

RedsBreads…..

Certainly a formula has a large influence on doughs and their outcome.  Looking at your above recipe I get the hydration of your dough is around 58%.  Seems low, but I can't factor in your starter… is it a 100% starter mix or other.  I've also found that Rye is a moisture hog and I've adjusted my hydration up to compensate.  I'm just shooting in the dark here and I'm not an expert.

In my experience with convection ovens I've always had to do lots of "finagling" for good crust, crumb, color, etc.  I've used dutch ovens, inverted full sized steam table deep pans over the Batards sitting on a 3/8" steel rack plate, and many methods for steam. All this with OK results….

What I found on the convection ovens I've used was that they are aggressively vented and there was not a way to shut the vents off or dampen them.  This venting allows all the good steam to escape very quickly.  Most of the formulas I've read posted on the BBGA mention initial baking time with steam and the dampener closed.  Then it is opened during the final bake.  

None of the convection ovens I've used allowed vent dampening,,, hence the use of the dutch ovens or pans covering the dough.  I should say that all the convection ovens I've expereinced have been gas.  Maybe electric ones are different.

Anyway, just my humble input……… Good luck….. Whatever have fun….

 

 

RedsBreadsLady's picture
RedsBreadsLady

My starter is at 60% hydration.

 

And YES! That is exactly the issue I'm having with the crust! There really isn't a way to close the vents, so I've been relying on tenting with foil and deep roasting pans, like you've mentioned. Even when turning the fans off, there is really no way to capture the steam. Definitely with you on the finagling.

 

Thanks so much!

amber108's picture
amber108

Any starter culture will do, ones with some meal or rye will be bolder and more flavour producing. Dry or wet starters can both produce great breads.

We sell "white" sourdough loaves a cafe; we use a 50/50 whole rye and white spelt leaven about 111% hydration, it looks much like a wet pancake dough. For the mix we use an organic white bakers flour @ around 12% protein, it gives a good gluten network ei; for bubbles/holes, open crumb to develop. Folding rather than kneading is always better in my opinion. The dough itself works out around 70% hydration, with a bit of malt syrup as well.

Malt syrup gives flavour but diastatic malt gives a bit more colour and crunch to your crust and adds no flavour, you could try that too. Its not a chemical of any sort bit "live" malted grains, barley often, full of enzymes etc.

Try this;

745g bakers flour

305g leaven

465g water

8g malt

13g salt

 

RedsBreadsLady's picture
RedsBreadsLady

That certainly is some beautiful bread... My starter is at 60% hydration with basic bread flour.

I do have access to malt syrup, so this next batch, I will incorporate that in as well. I am also a firm believer in ascorbic acid for a more tender crumb... What is your opinion on using both the malt and ascorbic acid (diluted at 100 parts per million)?

Thanks so much for the formula!

amber108's picture
amber108

I dont add ascorbic acid as it doesnt sit well with my idea of what I imagine to be in "natural" bread, I know its just vitamin c but yeh, I like to keep thing as per nature where I can, but do try :) I find this recipe very tender in the crumb as it is...

Reynard's picture
Reynard

Here in the UK has it already added, along with the other improvers required by law...

drogon's picture
drogon

It's easy to buy flour without any additives though - all the mills used by artisan/craft bakers have as natural a flour as they can legally sell with no ascorbic acid added. (And most also have a flour with it added...) Most of my white is Shipton Mill No. 4 which only has the statutory additives.

One mill even has white flour without the statutory other additives too - Cann Mill (Stoates), so stoneground & sifted white flour without the statutory chalk and other vitamins....

I don't think there are any improvers required by law though - the vitamin/minerals required by law are: Calcium Carbonate, Iron, Niacin & Thiamine. These are supposedly to emulate what's being lost in white flour - naturally contained in the bran and germ. They are not added to wholemeal flours so they're not really an improver as such.

Interesting to see the bakers on the Victorian Bakehouse TV program make such a fuss over chalk being added back then... It's still added today! (but not in the same quantities fortunately)

As always; read the label...

-Gordon

Reynard's picture
Reynard

About the vitamins and minerals... Just couldn't think of the right words. ;-) (Brain fart, blond moment...)

The Tesco own brand white bread flour has no added ascorbic acid, neither does the Allinsons, while the basic Waitrose one does. Can't, off the top of my head, remember whether the Leckford Estate or Duchy Organic does...

Calcium carbonate (aka chalk) is the commonest way of adding calcium to non-dairy food. Just looked it up, and it's between 235 and 390 milligrams per 100 grams of flour. That's absolutely tiny compared to the 10% chalk the Victorian Bakers were using on the program last night...

Mum lived in occupied Belgium during the war, and she says the bread was heavily adulterated. With sawdust...

I might check out the local mill for flours without additives...

 

amber108's picture
amber108

Interesting... so most flour there has additives in it as standard? So its meant to be for health ?.. hmm, I just use organic flours from the one mill and as far as I know they dont add anything... I thought ascorbic was to improve  bread quality/texture not a health additive, interesting

drogon's picture
drogon

I can only tell you what's relevant to the UK...

All white flour is required by law to have the following "fortifications":

  • Calcium Carbonate, Iron, Niacin & Thiamine.

Wholemeal/wholegrain flour does not need these to be added. They are added to replace the vitamins/minerals that are lost when wholemeal flour is sifted/bolted to produce white flour.

I think you may find that .au requires the same or similar - organic or not. Statutory additives overrule Organic....

I buy organic flour too. See here for ingredients:

http://flour.co.uk/view/strong-organic-white-16kg-sack

Anything else is added by the mill for other reasons - possibly to give the consumer a "better" flour - e.g. adding vit c/ascorbic acid which is a gluten improver will help the bread rise better, so the consumer who never reads the labels might think "Oh, flour from X never works for me, but flour from Y always does, so I'll always buy Y...". Some dried yeasts also contain ascorbic acid too - presumably for the same reason. (to trick the consumer)

One mill I have used in the UK does not add these statutory vitamins/minerals - they told me that the quantities they mill/sift are so small that accurately measuring and mixing the additives is very hard to do.

-Gordon

amber108's picture
amber108

I think many supermarket flours have additives as standard, but the guy we buy from says because of their certification theyre not allowed to add things, unless perhaps they were organic additives. We buy pallets of the stuff with a couple of other people direct from the mill in Gunnedah, nice to have organicgrowers not too far away :)

I think there are both "health" additives and "performance" additives, actually some flours and bread mixes have L cysteine also, sometimes from chicken feathers and human hair, makes for lighter fluffier texture.... eiw

drogon's picture
drogon

At least not in the UK.

Yeast for example - Bread can be sold as organic (providing you have organic certification) which contains non-organic yeast. (And there is only one place making organic yeast that I know of - and that's in Germany. I buy it via a UK importer).

Also, the statutory additives do not count towards "organicness". ie. they're ignored by the organic certification people - they must be added yet your bread can still be classified as organic.

Potatoes can be doused in copper sulphate and still be organic.

and so on.

I've recently been looking at organic certification for my little bakery, but sadly it's not going to happen due to the excessive cost and stupid amount of paperwork to do. I can list ingredients as organic, but not call anything organic unless I've been certified organic by one of the 6 certifying agencies in the UK.

As far as I can tell, Australian flour must, by law, be enriched with folic acid and thianmine by the miller. This applies to organic flour as well as non-organic. So if your mill is not adding them, they're breaking the law. Or just not telling you because they're statutory. Ask them...

-Gordon

amber108's picture
amber108

Well we did ask them and they said they dont add anything, theyre are different brackets I think.

Here you can call something organic if you like but "certified organic " is, well, certified. we call ours organic as the flour and most fruit and seeds and grains and cheese are organic, but not everything we use is. Certification is a drag and expensive.

drogon's picture
drogon

I suspect they might be like one I've used - who say they're too small to accurately dose the additives.

I'm not against additives, statutory or not, but more information is what I'm really wanting - e.g. the hidden "processing aids" in mass produced food so I can make a properly informed decision about what I'm buying.

We (in the UK) can't legally call anything organic without being certified - we don't need to say "certified organic", just call it organic and somewhere put the certifying agency's logo & number on the label. It's a minefield - it would cost me about £600+VAT a year to become organically certified then there's paperwork require for each product as well as more record keeping. It would probably add too much to the price of each loaf to make it worthwhile for me.

I make breads from 100% organic ingredients, but I can't legally call it organic )-:

-Gordon

RedsBreadsLady's picture
RedsBreadsLady

It's basically the same here. You've got your "Made with organic ingredients" and those who somehow muster up the funds and the patience sell "Certified Organic".

 

You can spray pesticide on your coffee beans and still call them organic, depending on your certification.

amber108's picture
amber108

organic here can be used loosely, but I think if you have proof and lables of your certified ingredients around the place customers will get the idea, after all really what you want is people to appreciate your healthy niche product, right? and the fact that you do use certified organic ingredients is as close as you can get without going the full mile and going for broke ;)

amber108's picture
amber108

As far as ovens go, Im not so familiar with convection ovens, we have a deck oven, electric with stone decks and steam. We steam for the first 15min and then vent, sourdoughs a bit slower than yeasted, we bake @ 240 - 250 for 30 or so minutes.

RedsBreadsLady's picture
RedsBreadsLady

That's very much the crumb structure I'm looking for... bubbly, but not holey, since they want to use this bread for grilled cheese sandwiches, also. 

I am also used to deck ovens, myself. I was at the Culinary Institute of America for two years and that's what I learned to bake bread in. That, and wood-fired ovens with steam wands.

Unfortunately, with convection ovens, (at least with this one), there is no way to close the vents. Hence the issues I'm having with the crust.

amber108's picture
amber108

This is the loaf we sell to cafes as our white, they love it and rave about it, some customers ask if we're sure its sourdough because its so soft, ahahaa.... makes great toast and sandwiches, we like ours not too sour, we find many people say they dont like sourdough coz its too sour so we try to use our leaven very young, maybe also thats why I wouldnt use ascorbic acid - do you find it adds sourness?

amber108's picture
amber108

oh yeh, I meant to say its the recipe above :)

RedsBreadsLady's picture
RedsBreadsLady

On the contrary, it find it only enhances the flavor. I usually just buy and dilute vitamin C crystals from the health food store. I think that at a higher concentration it may add a little more zing... but at 100 parts per million, I find that it works as a gluten stabilizer, makes for a more tender crumb, and extends the shelf life of the sourdough without altering the flavor too greatly. 

I agree, a lot of people here aren't fond of very sour sourdough, either. I did try out your formula with my starter--I love the texture it produces, but my crust (with the convection oven issues) is still not quite where I'd like it to be. The owner commented on the flavor, but wanted a harder sourdough. I hope you don't mind if I save this formula for the future? It's quite exceptional. :)

amber108's picture
amber108

No worries, its only bread after all :)

RedsBreadsLady's picture
RedsBreadsLady

This is from the batch I"ve just pulled from the oven. I used warm water to spritz the loaves this time, and inverted our biggest hotel pan over the loaves for the first 20 minutes and left them to get some color for 20 minutes after:

I think I've finally figured out the recipe--added 1.76 oz of oil and 0.626 oz of malt, evened out the hydration and decided to sneak some rye in.

Reynard's picture
Reynard

Sounds like the oil and a cloche over the loaf did the trick :-)

RedsBreadsLady's picture
RedsBreadsLady

Thank you so much for all of your advice! I'm still not 100% pleased with the crust, but this is at last a substantial loaf that we can sell and use in the cafe sandwiches.

amber108's picture
amber108

brilliant problem solving :) , good job!

bitofbread's picture
bitofbread

Hi,

I've just been reading this post and am now wondering if I'm baking in the right oven.  I've been using the Fan/convection oven at 220 for 15 mins lowering it to 190 for 20-25 mins usually with a piece of foil to stop the top from browning to much.  I have a terracotta stone to bake on set on the wire shelve at its lowest point. Should I be baking in the conventional oven? would this improve the crust?  to the ones I want to sell on my stall.

Though I know that as I freeze some of my loaves they will go soft anyway once defrosted.

Daphne

drogon's picture
drogon

I started in a cheap (£195) 68 litre domestic fan oven (A Beko). It would bake 6 small loaves at once for me or 4 large ones. I never bothered with Dutch ovens, cloches, foil, etc. just a good splash of water in the tray at the bottom. I occasionally put a couple of pizza stones in when doing larger boulles though.

I typically run it hotter than you though, but that will really depend on the crust you're after - I'll do 250°C for 12 minutes then turn the pans round, swap top to bottom and down to 200-210 for the remainder - usually no more than another 20-25 minutes.

I like to see my breads with a darker crust though - but not too dark! a bit more colour gives it a bit more flavour.

As for the ones you want to sell - who knows. You need to know the locals... Today I took 16 loaves to a market I've just started doing - it's a monthly one and the 2 months leading up to Christmas I'd taken the same and sold out - today I only sold 4 granary-type sourdoughs and 2 Brioche loaves.... Fortunately the local shop I also supply had sold out by the time I got back at lunchtime, so they've taken the rest. (My pastys and croissants did sell out though, so all was not lost)

Cheers,

-Gordon

caglarkipcak's picture
caglarkipcak

hi all,

i have little cafe and mid industrial convection oven with steam, when i try to bake sourdough bread, we get same result;

tiny crumbs and low score splits, i start to bake with 240C 10 min / %50 steam - 2 part 220C 10 min %0 Steam - Final part 200C 5min.

can you share your advises & experiences, about steam percentage of convection oven.

Thank you.

drogon's picture
drogon

"tiny crumbs" sounds like good bread to me, but I live in a place where sourdough bread doesn't have great big gaping glossy holes - well it can have them, but it won't sell. Naturally leavened bread doesn't have to have big holes... And vice versa - look at ciabatta for example...

So if the bread looks and tastes good and the customers eat it, then I'd suggest you just carry on.

I'm not convinced there's much point trying to steam bread after the first 10-15 minutes anyway (other than for e.g. some long slow baked Ryes) - the crust will have set by then and you want it to subsequently cook off. My ovens get a splash of water when the dough goes in - the smaller fan oven has a tray at the bottom the larger fan oven has a button I push that injects water into the plate in-front of the fans/heaters. I push that for 5 seconds.. Then they get left for 12-15 minutes when I turn the loaves round to even out the baking and that lets out what's left of the steam then they get baked at a lower temperature until done - usually another 22-25 minutes. (your bake time is just 25 minutes? Seems a bit short for average sized loaves to me)

Maybe I'm doing something completely wrong, or am completely out to lunch in my methods, but it produces good bread for me - and bread that sells.

-Gordon

RedsBreadsLady's picture
RedsBreadsLady

Fantastic that you have a steam injector in your oven... we aren't so fortunate over here.

I have been heavily spritzing my loaves with warm water before baking, but I might try 75% steam if I had my old deck oven and venting in the last ten minutes. For me, sourdough should have a shiny, crackling crust, with large ears. I haven't been able to achieve the lifted ears in my convection oven as of yet. I bake underneath a large, deep hotel pan for the first 20 minutes at 480F (248-250C) under a hotel pan for sufficient steam, since my convection oven has a fixed vent. I find that the loaves get better rise on a hotter stone.

Once I started using the large pan, I started getting that crackly crust. I have been getting better scores with a sharper blade, held at about 30-40 degrees. I find that the loaves get better rise on a hotter stone, and with deeper scores to allow for sufficient expansion.