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something wrong with my bread crumb since I bake with new batch of whole wheat flour. (Bob's Red Mill)

sakullak's picture
sakullak

something wrong with my bread crumb since I bake with new batch of whole wheat flour. (Bob's Red Mill)

Hi ..

I'm using Bob's red mill , organic stone ground whole wheat flour.   I'm baking 100% whole wheat bread.  This bread is whole wheat flour with GABA brown rice.
I make 2 shapes ; 80g. roll and 400g. in loaf tin. (white bread dough weight can be 300g. in loaf tin, but whole wheat bread doesn't rise too much as white bread, so I use 400g.)

   

I've noticed that all bread recipes using this new batch flour, the bread crumb is softer and more fluffy, a bit bigger in volume.  The rolls have no problem.

But I really have problem with loaf tin.  The bread rises too much (even I tried reducing yeast).  When I slice the bread, it mostly tear apart.

This picture is bread with old batch of flour which is good.  

But with new batch, it's difficult to slice, it's too soft and it tears apart so easily. 




I'm quite new baker, just have an experience that different batch of flour effects the bread.  But why bread in loaf has so much more effects than small rolls ?  Can someone explain me the reason?   

sakullak's picture
sakullak

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

to look like when over proofed.  So fluffy it can't be cut well.  The new flour is more extendable and stretches easily.  Try shortening the final proof and not letting the dough rise as high before baking.  

Rolls are smaller so the effect is not so obvious, they have a larger crust surface so heat reaches the middle sooner to set the crumb.  Panned loaves can only extend in one direction... straight up, and take longer to bake and set.  

Try shortening the proofing times.  Especially the last one. 

You could try taking advantage of the new crop of flour by adding a heavier flour to the Whole wheat mix or try toasting 10% of the flour before adding to the dough. 

sakullak's picture
sakullak

Thanks Mini Oven, 

For panned loaves, I wait until it's about 1 cm higher than the pan.  It's also spring back well, not reaching over-proof state.  But when put them in oven, it keeps rising much higher.  

So ... as you advice, I should bake them earlier.  I will try next time, or I may make new shape, not using loaf pan. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

but bake when the rising dough is level with the edge.

sakullak's picture
sakullak

thank you, I'll try again next week.

floppy's picture
floppy

Revised my method of making whole wheat by sifting and regrinding the bran.(Retsel mill)

Last batch made sponge with 1 tbs yeast, 3 c water 5 c sat in fridge for about 12 hrs. 8 c flour(1 c cereal rye, 1 triticale) 31/2 c water autolysed for 1 hour w/2 tbs salt, 3 tbs sugar, last 2/3 cup olive oil. Divided into 43 oz. portions for loaves, with 2-9 oz. buns.

 

Must have over proofed as baked loaves were 20 or more percent higher and broke easily when slicing and handling. Bread  a lot softer than just mixing in bosch as noknead bread, proofing about an hour then baking.

Am I wasting effort with the sponge and autolyse length of time?

I've made note about the overproof issue.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

it over proofed.  Interesting way of combining and to each their own.  On the other hand, it might have needed a second bulk rise.  Happens quite often with yeast. 

I might have soaked the bran (since it was already sifted out) in the brine and given all the flour a longer wet time with even less yeast, adding more yeast if needed when I combine the soaking bran/brine with the  pre-fermented flour.  If I held any flour back it would be part of the white wheat.   Oh and if it seemed like it was rising too fast for the temperatures, I would deflate it sooner and let it rise some more for a finer crumb.

Don't know if that gives you any ideas.  

floppy's picture
floppy

In the past made a lot of sour dough using store bought white flour with homemade starter. Have been at the home ground bread for a couple of years and with purchase of the bosch mixer and bosch's whole wheat recipe have been trying to achieve something that holds together well like store bought. Bosch recipe is fast as a no-knead, but is always fragile( slices well but slices break to easily).

So I'll back track and reduce my proofing as Bosch suggests an hour( usually bake after 1.25 to 1.5 hrs proofing) with 2 tbs fast rising yeast to about 14-15 c  flour, 5 c water(usually use 6 1/4) 3 tbs sugar, 2 tbs salt, 3 tbs dough enhancer, 2/3 c oil(usually corn) Flour is hard white with about 40% triticale and 10-20% rye. Have tried just white wheat flour alone with about the same results.

This last batch with sponge and autolyse about 9 c flour and 3.25 c water was an attempt to solve the fragile state. Didn't see a lot difference with this semi sourdough from the sponge. Are you suggesting more of a sour dough bread than a yeast bread?

Biggest problem is consumption, only person eating my bread is me so it's 3-4 weeks between experiments.(Likely someone else at home would suggest a single loaf at a time!)

Minibaker, thank you for taking time to encourage homebaking and solving this, home EC for guys should be mandatory, this is starting to look like rocket science.

 

 

sakullak's picture
sakullak

Yes, I had soaker and pre-fermented flour.  :) 

But I never made twice rising.  Just pre-shape, deflate some gas from pre-shape and made final shaping.

The panned loaves are 5 times bigger than small rolls.  Even they are from same dough, but the bigger dough proof faster.  And with this new batch of flour, it's much more faster until they are over proofed.  But I'm confused, because I checked indentation (spring back), it has spring back as usual not seem like it's over proofed. 

Anyway, I will try to bake them earlier and see the results.  

dobie's picture
dobie

sakullak

Let me ask a few questions.

What is the hydration %? What is the yeast type and %? Better yet, what is the recipe?

Have you switched from another brand to the Bob's Red Mill (BRM), or is this regarding merely another bag of BRM?

Also, what does 'GABA brown rice' mean? I can't find it anywhere else on the forum.

Thanks

dobie

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germinated_brown_rice

Surprised @DABrownman hasn't chipped in; it's simply sprouted brown rice.

cheers,

gary

dobie's picture
dobie

Gary

Two good laughs in one day, very good. Did you notice I played by the rules regarding 'BRM'? Thank god I did (as you were watching).

By the way (no BTW here), how did you find that? My google/wiki search kept bringing me to brain chemistry, neurological and other obscure stuff. You must have had prior knowledge, yes?

I mean, come on (be honest).

Not to mention, how does 'amino-buteric acid' become GABA? Oh, I see now, 'Gamma' Amino-Buteric Acid.

But now, come on, this is not a case of  'DMS' (alright, alright - dry milk solids) but it is truly in fact, an obscure acronym. The only result of a search on this forum, brings me right back to this thread.

Also, why wouldn't the post just say 'sprouted brown rice'?

All in good heart.

dobie

sakullak's picture
sakullak

they don't use "sprouted brown rice" too, but "germinated brown rice"  
but GABA is more common here.  :D

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

that I'm simply a genius. But honestly, I associated it with dietary supplements, so scanned the search results with that in mind.

I'm guessing, not having eaten the stuff, that sprouted rice has a fuller, more buttery taste.  Butyric acid is a butter flavor agent that is the scourge of beer making.

For the OP, I have in my mind that the germination process also increases the amount of another amino acid that weakens the gluten complex.  I can't find the reference so I may be talking through my hat regarding that.

Germinating grains, commonly called malting, activates various enzymes; amylases that break down starches and proteases that break down proteins.  Either of these actions will effectively soften and weaken the bread's structure.  The amylases increase the sugars (but soaking and rinsing will carry these off), and the proteases will increase the stickiness, as anyone who does high percentage rye breads will experience.

cheers,

gary

dobie's picture
dobie

Gary

That was a good call to associate GABA with dietary supplements. It never would have crossed my mind, which is why it would be known as 'near' genius. Just near enough to admire it.

Hmmm, butter..., beer. These are a few of my favorite things. Not (yet) being a brewer, I didn't know that a buttery brew would be looked down upon. No doubt, that is why I have never tasted a beer that evoked butter. But I would try one in a heartbeat.

As I've dealt with some failures that I've had recently (having started to use more sprouted grain flour and raw sprouted grains as additives), I have learning some of the basics regarding enzymes and in particular, their effect on dough structure.

By learning (on this forum, of course) to control how much and when I introduce them, I have had very positive results in my bakes. While still nowhere near a master of enzymes and such, even with my rudimentary understanding, I have made progress. I'm reading as fast as I can.

Thanks for everything.

dobie

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

Quote:
No doubt, that is why I have never tasted a beer that evoked butter. But I would try one in a heartbeat.
Yeast both egests and ingests butyric acid. Like those cute little bunny rabbits, yeasts are coprophagous. A slow or weak yeast egests more than it ingests.  That's a good reason to be sure you have a strong, active yeast culture before pitching the wort. The net effect of butyric acid contamination is a nasty tasting beer that reminds of stale movie buttered popcorn; except not that good.  Like that stuff they put in natural gas to give it an odor, a little goes a lo-ong way.

cheers,

gary

dobie's picture
dobie

gary

Hmmm..., stale movie buttered popcorn. Is the movie stale or just the buttered popcorn?

Just kidding, it must be pretty vile stuff.

But I didn't mean that I would necessarily drink one, rather sip one, to taste.

I expect to learn of new concepts everytime I log onto this forum, but unexpectedly, I find many new (or at least long forgotten) words every time as well. My spelling is even getting better.

I think I know what those words mean, and by your description, I am probably right, but I will do the research.

Thank you

dobie

ps - giving myself a few minutes to rack thru my skull computer (no wiki/google) I've come up with this.

Egest, as the opposite of ingest leads me to this memory (regarding dogs).

Vet: When a dog displays coprophagistic behavior...,

Me: (blank stare)

Vet: Eats poop.

Me: Oh...,

Do I have that right? Or was that Cacaphagistic?

 

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

Quote:
Do I have that right? Or was that Cacaphagistic?
I imagine either would get understood.

g

dobie's picture
dobie

Thank you gary

Good to know.

dobie

floppy's picture
floppy

Hi Gary:

Thank you very much for your input. I followed your suggestion pretty close and figured out a couple of problems.

First using the Bosch recipe with 2 TBS of instant yeast is just too much. Next the recipe indicates this is noKnead, I get a beautiful rise in an hour or so, but apparently this recipe is directed at a low bran flour( like store bought white). Trying to use the recipe with home milled is another part of the issue.

At any rate, following your suggestion the bread doesn't fall apart. I've got to adjust the amount to get a full size loaf - 31 oz. doesn't rise over the top of the pan.

Last thing I looked at is the coaseness of the flour, about a tbs per cup of flour is bran and unground kernal. After seeing another of your comments it became apparent the Retsel will never produce the finess that a steel mill will - so that seems to answer my question about flour finess. Also found a reference to commercial milled whole wheat and the producers apparently separate the bran and re-introduce at some point.

 

 

Anyway, thank you again for the information and help.

sakullak's picture
sakullak

yes, GABA rice is sprouted brown rice :)

Water + soymilk together is 53%
Olive oil 6.9%
GABA rice is about 86% , I cooked it like condensed soup, it has lots of water too. 

The dough is very soft, must do some stretch & fold , in stead of normal kneading. 

Instant yeast 2.37%  that is much higher than other recipes because the GABA rice is very sticky (you can make a glue).  First, I tried this recipe, I added less yeast, the bread was very flat.  

dobie's picture
dobie

sakullak

Obviously I need a lesson on GABA rice, but that can wait.

What do you mean when you say GABA rice is 86%. Of what?

What is the total flour, or what is the percentage of BRM flour (14%?).

But again, have you just switched brands to BRM or is it just another bag?

This is very confusing. Maybe I should just back out of the conversation.

dobie

sakullak's picture
sakullak

BRM 463g.
GABA Rice, in very condensed soup 400g. :)

It's the same brand and same types, but just another bag.   It gives quite different result in bread crump, since I have many recipes using this flour, all of them changes.  I usually make the rolls , the effects of new flour are not bad, actually it's better too. 

But I really have problem with panned loaf.  

dobie's picture
dobie

Thank you sakullak

Regarding the difference in rolls to loaves, I think Mini Oven is absolutely right as to their different baking dynamics.

Since it is the same brand and type of flour (BRM Whole Wheat), my first thoughts would be that the new batch might be very fresh and the older one might have been much older. You never know.

Also, I would look at the ingredients list on the bag (if it's still available to look at) and see if it contains anything other than Whole Wheat. I would be looking for diastatic malt or vital wheat gluten (sometimes referred to as VWG).

I would expect that you will not find either of them or anything else in BRM WW flour, but I don't know for sure. If those do exist on the ingredient list, then I would wonder if that is a new thing or whether they were there in your last bag as well. At that point I would make a phone call to BRM.

Since you are in Bangkok (and I'm in the US), I would be glad to make that call for you (if you would like) and get back to you about that.

Either way, you are clearly experiencing greater activity in your normal recipe and so obviously, the bulk of advice posted above regarding reducing the yeast and/or proofing time would be well advised (as if you needed me to tell you that).

I'm thinking it's got to be either age of product or reformulation of product. Otherwise, you wouldn't be experiencing such fluctuation with a known recipe, unless your kitchen got hotter by the season or your source of yeast or soy milk/water has changed.

Let me know if I can help.

dobie

sakullak's picture
sakullak

thank you so much about calling BRM,  I used to send them email once.  I think I'll try another email to ask about their flour.  

I'll try mini oven's advice on baking them earlier.  If it's still have same problem ........ so I'm going to to bake them in loaf pan LOL 

Well ... since I used this new batch of flour, I've noticed that the proofing time is reduced.  Fortunately, I don't have proofing box or count on time.  I like to check spring back and see whether the dough is ready to be baked or not.  

sakullak's picture
sakullak

so I'm going to to bake them in loaf pan LOL  >> I mean , I'm not going to bake them in loaf pan.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

looks like you found one of the exceptions to the poke test.  That stretchy stuff will just keep on stretching until it pops.  might be fun just to pinch off a roll and play with it watching it to see how far it goes.  Try two rolls and then deflate one, just flatten it on purpose and watch it rise again. Then bake and compare.  (Could end up with a pita pocket too)

sakullak's picture
sakullak

thanks mini oven ....  never try something like this before :)

 

dobie's picture
dobie

sakullak

I spoke with Jean, the Bread expert at Bob's Red Mills and explained your problem.

She says their whole wheat flour has no additives of any kind and has not been reformulated in any way in the past year.

I asked her if the age of the flour might be responible for your problem and she felt that it wouldn't create a problem to the degree you are experiencing it.

I asked her if the particular season's wheat crop could cause the problem and she said that while wheat crops do vary by a little from season to season, that the variation would (again) not be sufficient to cause the problem you're having.

She also said that they have not had any other reports of this effect.

Her suggestion was (as others have suggested) to cut back on the yeast.

Her other suggestion was to look at the source of the other ingredients. Is it a new batch of yeast? Or a new source of soy milk? Or is the GABA being sprouted from a new batch of rice, or a different type of rice, and is the process the same as before?

I noticed you said that you have other recipes that use the same flour and have had the same problem.

That being so, I would look at any ingredients that are common to all the recipes. I would think the yeast first.

But if the source of the other ingredients is consistant, maybe Jean at BRM is wrong about some point and your's is just the first report to come in.

Maybe the easiest work around would be to try a small batch at a significant yeast reduction (I would try one half), just to see what happens.

That being said, can I ask you what is the process to make GABA? What rice and techniques? Do you make it yourself?

I notice you say that you cook the GABA and it is about the consistency of condensed soup. That makes me think of the Tangzhong roux technique. Are they similar?

I have some Black 'Forbidden' Rice I've been meaning to germinate and I think today is the day.

Anyway, thanks and good luck.

dobie

sakullak's picture
sakullak

Thanks for asking Jean :) 

Yes, I tried to reduce yeast already.  It didn't rise as high as first time, but the problem still there.  So, I should try to reduce more yeast and proofing time.  

I've many other recipes using common ingredients (soymilk, milk, instant yeast)  but with Gold Medal whole wheat, the bread crump doesn't change.  

BRM flour is my 3rd batch, 1st and 2nd  are same.  I guess it's due to season's wheat crop.  Anyway, this is not really a big problem , because some bread recipes are better and more yummy.   So I think I should adjust to new flour and may not bake the panned loaf until next batch is coming.  So the experience tells me to test the new batch of flour every time when it comes. :) 



About GABA rice, I sprout by myself.  But not all brown rices can be sprouted.  It has to be harvested at the right time. I see some different between rice that can be and cannot be sprouted..  If you can see the germ clearly, it may be able to be sprouted.  To sprout, it's similar to other sprouted grains, but it take 1 more day for me. :)

The Tangzhong roux technique, I just heard it today.  Already googled it, yes it is !!  But I did it with my grinded GABA rice.  My idea came from I wanted to add rice in the bread.  I tried many methods but the bread wasn't smooth enough.  So I thought I should grind them and cook but must be very low hydration, so it can be mixed with bread dough.  Wow wow...

So, you may try to sprout your Black 'Forbidden' Rice , but if you can see germ clearly. Maybe it can't be sprouted.   But you can try Tangzhong roux with it :)  

dobie's picture
dobie

sakullak

Very hard problem to figure out indeed, but I think you are on the right path. Reduce the yeast until it falls into place. And testing new batches would be comforting.

That's a very good pic of germinated rice. When you grind it, do you just mash it up or use a food processor?

I'll bet the black forbidden rice will germinate, but if not, one of the others will, and I will try your technique.

Good luck to you. Good luck to me.

dobie

sakullak's picture
sakullak

I did it like smoothie :D

Good Luck to you , Dobie.

dobie's picture
dobie

Thank you sakullak

I will let you know how it works out. Please do the same regarding your original post.

dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

sakullak

Waa, waa, waa.

My 'Forbidden Black Rice' didn't germinate, even though it was 'Organic'.

I will not give up. I will find another source and try again.

Good wishes

dobie

ps - how are you doing with the original problem?

sakullak's picture
sakullak

Hi Dobie,

I heard from local farmer whom I bought brown rice , he said most rices sold in market couldn't be germinated, except the farmer really intend to harvest and mill especially for this purpose.  You may try other rices and let see. 

About my bread, I tried to bake the panned loaf earlier than usual,  but the bread had same problem.  From the same dough, I baked 3 shapes : small roll, oval loaf, and panned loaf.  The bread crumb and taste of panned loaf was quite different from other shapes.

Tomorrow, I will try again, but no more panned loaf.  

dobie's picture
dobie

sakullak

So you are sad and I am sad.

But we will find a way. I will find a new source of Black 'Forbidden' Rice, and eventually will find one to sprout.

There are so many other rices I can get and I'm sure most of them would germinate, but I really wanted the Black first. But I will try others as well, anyway.

I have always been told that if it was 'Organic', it would sprout, but not so in this case.

Have you tried as Mini Oven suggested and cut back on the yeast?

I respectfully disagree that you should give up on the pan loaf.

I don't know your circumstances, but maybe you could buy another batch of flour, perhaps, another 'brand' (even just a small quantity) and see what happens.

You can't let this beat you. It has got to be one thing or another.

Good luck no matter what.

Keep in touch.

dobie

sakullak's picture
sakullak

The new batch of flour will arrive in few months.  Once I receive them, I'll try pan loaf again.

Yes, I did cut back on yeast and shorten proofing time.  It's quite frustrated when I tried many things but problem stay still.  $!#%@#@$#%$@ 

 

dobie's picture
dobie

sakullak

Arrives in a few months? Wow. That must be frustrating as well.

And I apologize, you did say previously that you cut down on the yeast, but I forgot.

I am scratching my brain to figure out what to do next. Perhaps, not knead as much? I will go back to the beginning and read thru everything again.

I will think of you.

dobie

floppy's picture
floppy

You may have overcome the same problem I was having but recently made another batch and thought to share the results.

First using 1/2 tbs yeast, 3 c water, 5 c sifted (home ground) flour (1c triticale, 1c cereal rye, 3c hard white wheat) mixed and refrigerated for about 18 hrs. Autolysed 9c hard white wheat for about 12 hours. Warmed sponge for about 2 hours.

Using bosch mixer, blended sponge into autolysed wheat with 2/3 c oil, 2 tbs salt, 1 tbs yeast for about 6 min. until well mixed. Let rest for about 10 min. remixed for about 4 min. Let rest for about 10 minutes. Remixed for about 4 minutes. Shaped into 3 43 oz. loaves with 4- 6 oz. mini loaves. Proofed for about 35 minutes and started baking.

As Mini Oven suggested, baking began when loaves were even with top of the pan. In this instance proofing was very rapid after the first 20 min. or so. Consequently, my large loaves were a bit above the pan tops. The 6 oz. mini loaves(about 2"X3" in bakers pan) push up almost double in height but did have the excessive soft texture when sliced.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I'm looking at the exponential yeast growth.  Can you give more detail about the 2 hour warmed sponge?

bboop's picture
bboop

The bread books all seem to talk about different batches of wheat reacting differently, like the bakers have to adjust their baking per batch. This doesn't speak to how it rises in a bread pan, but there are certainly variables in all of this.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

back on the yeast?  Silly Q, right?

Another thought.  Relative humidity.  Rainy season playing with the dough hydration.  Are the panned loaves exposed to a great deal of room humidity?  

I'm thinking about a strudel dough I was making in Indonesia many years ago.  A phyllo dough I couldn't get stretched out properly because it overstretched.  Normally the skin sets a little as the dough gets bigger helping the whole process.  The only place i could pull it was with the fan blowing on it from the AC.  It helped dry the skin of the dough.  If I were to apply the same reasoning... perhaps a dryer room might help or one with a fan blowing on the panned loaves to set a light skin on the surface to contain the rising.   

I use the same idea in my glassed in "Florida room."  I had a problem with mould growing on the glass and alu. supports due to condense water, I installed a wall fan upside down high up on the wall and plugged the fan into a timer.  Every quarter of a hour, it blows softy across the inside ceiling and the problem spot in the room.   So far it is working very well keeping condense water from forming.  I purchased a large fan as when it runs on low it is much quieter than a small fan on high.  :)

floppy's picture
floppy

Hi Mini O:

My sponge sat in fridge in stainless bowl covered for about 18 hrs. Moved to warm kitchen and let it warm for about 2 hours, before incorporating. There was not noticable expansion to the sponge.

I was surprised at the speed which the dough increased in size once in the oven. Two things may have been at work. 1.Adjusted the oven temp about 30 degrees as I had noticed previous baking temp always seem to hover around 300 degrees max. when setting was for 350. 2.With the thermostat increased about 30 degrees, temp still didn't appear to reach the desired 350. So I manually adjusted. The temperature seem to be close to 350 degrees during the baking time about 45 min. for 3 loaves. Baked until internal temp was around 200 degrees.

The mini loaves sliced and appear to have nice density, while the full size loaves still appear too soft and the slices break a bit to easily, but don't crumble.

sakullak's picture
sakullak

floppy ... I always find full size loaves are softer than small one, but not so much trouble with old batch of flour.

I may try to cut more & more yeast, and let see what happen.

dobie's picture
dobie

sakullak

That is something well worth trying. Get drastic with the reduction (in small 'test' batches).

dobie

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Try either a lot less yeast in the poolish/sponge  like 1/4 tsp

OR not adding any additional yeast in the final dough mix.

floppy's picture
floppy

I didn't  mention that I proofed the loaves in pans in a warm oven, about 100 degrees with door closed.  

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

There are different ways to slow down yeast, adding warmth (37.7°C) is not one of them.  

What are you doing differently when compared to someone who can't get a decent rise out of their ww loaves?  

Things to try one at a time.

  • shorten the fermenting time on the sponges, 
  • not let the dough warm up before mixing
  • reduce yeast
  • reduce temperatures
  • reduce hydration

Depending on where in the process any changes are made, the changes could have subtle to large effects. Changes early on usually make more obvious differences.  If you find everything you try not solving the problem make changes in the very beginning of the process for the greatest effect.  

floppy's picture
floppy

This is perplexing. Originally I was attempting to improve bread produced by the Bosch No-knead recipe which with my homeground grains produced a hearty bread but easily crumbling.

Reading ideas on the Fresh Loaf gave me the idea to hydrolyze the grains and use a sponge. Produces a better(less coarse) bread but it still breaks easily in the full loaves. One thing noted, full loaves bake in non-convection oven vs mini-loaves bake in a convection mini-oven.

Perhaps the difference is the convection removing more moisture?

Lastly, my dough is usually very wet. So MiniO how do I hyrolyse? Sift and remove the bran, add a smaller amount of water( usually 3 c water + 9c grain)? 

This is like dancing on a pin.

 

Thank you.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

That could easily be, and convection is known to set the crust faster.  

Just out of the clear blue sky...  How much dough goes into what size pan?  I have the feeling I'm missing something obvious.  Got any photos?

floppy's picture
floppy

Loaf pans (full sized 7x9", I think) get about 43 oz. of dough. The small bread pans, 2 X 4", get 6 oz. of dough. The small bread pan was a bakers 12 loaves I cut in half, which fits nicely into the convection minioven.

NO current pictures. Can make pictures of a frozen loaf and/or a partially consumed unfrozen loaf and pictures of the small loafs. Although everything has been sliced in this batch.

 

 

Just measure the loaf pans 5" X 9" for large and small are about 2.5" x 4".

 

Just made the pictures of part of 1 loaf, the baking pans. Photos may be hard to view their 300 + mpix..

The bread is a little rough around the sides as I reduced the oil in the pan and this loaf was hard to remove.

 

 

 Almost forgot to include pictures of the small loaves!

 

 Smalll loaf slices, too.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

for me, anyone?

43 oz is about 1.2kg dough, quite a bit of dough for one 5x9 inch pan.  I do that with my heavy rye but not with wheat.  Can it be there is too much dough in the pan?  Let me go check on that.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23352/dough-ball-sizes-common-bread-shapes

Too much dough in the pan would explain a lot of your problems.  Try about 800g  or 28 to 30 oz.

dobie's picture
dobie

Mini

Yes, for me. And I agree with you.

dobie

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Floppy, you wrote back on Nov 18th:  " Divided into 43 oz. portions for loaves, with 2-9 oz. buns."

I should have converted the oz. right there and then.  I'm sorry.  

Mini

floppy's picture
floppy

Should I maintain the wet dough as previously described and just reduce the amount of dough per pan? Looks like i need to update from my english measurements to metric.

As I look at the blog, my pictures are visible. Any idea what I should alter so they're visible for you?

Tnank you for the information, about two weeks away from another batch.,

 

My water is about 4 percent to the quantity of flour and that produces a pretty sticky dough. I'm trying to visualize how reducing the quantity of dough per pan will affect the crumbly baked bread.

 

 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

may be different, I used american oz = 28.3g  You will have to check your weights.  But your shaped dough should not fill over half the pan.  a little less.

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

For a 5×9 pan, I use 750g (27oz avoir.) of dough for white bread with a touch of rye (5%).  For whole wheat boost that number according to your experience.

cheers,

gary

floppy's picture
floppy

Not to belabor the point , but will reducing the quantity be likely to change the softness/crumbly result I am thus far experiencing?

 

Thank you for all of your help! And to Gary also.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

just do it with one loaf.

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

For both @floppy and the OP, @sakullak

1) I saw only one reference to the kneading. Are you getting proper gluten development?  For a white panned sandwich bread, I expect to draw a membrane (window pane) thin enough to distinguish my finger prints through it.  For whole wheat, a very translucent membrane at least.  Don't forget that how you pre-shape and shape will also have a major effect on the texture of the crumb.

2) Since the flour is suspect, have either of you kicked it back to basics?  Make a loaf using only flour, water, salt and yeast; no GABA, soy milk, oil or any other enrichments.  Do consider my first point above.  The test loaf should narrow down the cause of the problems.

If your test loaf, without additives and with good techniques, turns out poorly, the flour may be bad.  If the test turns out well, work your additives back in one at a time, one loaf at a time until the loaf fails.  If it doesn't fail with the enrichments, your technique was likely bad.

Suggested test formula:

100% test flour, 450g
67% water, 300g
2% salt, 9g
1% instant dry yeast, 4-5g

Method

Pre-heat oven to 360℉, ~180℃.

Mix everything together until well mixed and you have a shaggy ball. Let rest for 10 minutes to allow hydration to even out. Knead, by hand or mixer, until you can pull a very translucent membrane.

Let rise until doubled in volume, punch down and let rise again until the original doubled volume is reached.

Pat down, preshape, let rest 10 minutes, then shape and pan. Let rise to ¾ proofed (slow recovery from indention). Bake for 40-45 minutes, internal temperature 200℉ or 93℃. Or, if no thermometer, passes thump test.

cheers,

gary

dobie's picture
dobie

gary

Good point.

Go back to basics and as you progress forward to your recipe goal, find out where the problem lies.

dobie

sakullak's picture
sakullak

Thank you , Gary.  That's good point !  But I wonder this

"Let rise until doubled in volume, punch down and let rise again until the original doubled volume is reached."

Why do we need to punch down and let it rise again?  

I'd try both shapes ... in rolls and pan to see the differences.

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

It does three things,

  1. It evens out the temperature in the dough ball.
  2. It redistributes the starch, enzymes and yeast throughout the dough ball.  A single doubling of volume is not really sufficient*, but if not deflated and reformed, fermentation is uneven.
  3. It provides an opportunity to retest the gluten development.  If weak, a pair of stretched letter folds at 90° to each other will likely be enough to bring it back.

cheers,

gary

* Some breads are intentionally under fermented, but sandwich bread is not one of those. ~gt

dobie's picture
dobie

sakullak

How has it turned out?

dobie