The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

I may be asking the impossible

Sammie1's picture
Sammie1

I may be asking the impossible

I'm brand new to the forum but not brand new to sourdough. However there are many people with much more experience.

I've had my starter for several years. It's an active happy starter that I keep at 100% hydration.

My starter is very good with tang. In just 8 hours it could produce risen dough that, when baked would make your mouth pucker.

I've been trying to use it in recipes that call for commercial yeast. For some recipes, I don't want the tang in it. I want more of the yeast flavor as a commercial yeast would provide. I know adding things like baking soda or using more starter will reduce the tang, but I'm missing that yeast flavor. I realize I may be asking the impossible but I thought I'd ask those with more experience. How would I start to solve this? 

I've been playing with a waffle recipe because it's easier to experiment with. The original recipe calls for commercial yeast and I love the flavor of them when using it. I've switched over to using my sourdough starter for it and while I've been able to get rid of the tang, they come out bland. 

Here is the original waffle recipe with commercial yeast:

Overnight sponge:

1/2 cup warm water

1 tablespoon active-dry yeast

1/2 cup melted butter

2 cups whole or 2% milk

1 teaspoon salt

2 tablespoons sugar (optional)

3 cups all-purpose flour

The Next Day:

2 beaten eggs

1/2 teaspoon baking soda

 

Since I'm only cooking for two, I had to reduce the recipe. So here is what I've been doing for sourdough, mildly tangy but bland waffles for two people. Again, I'm trying to bring out the yeast flavor and struggling to do so:

Night Before:

1/4 cup 100% hydration starter

1/8 cup melted butter

1/2 cups whole or 2% milk

1/3 teaspoon salt

1/2 tablespoon sugar (optional)

3/4 cups all-purpose flour

The Next Day:

1 beaten egg

1/4 teaspoon baking soda

KathyF's picture
KathyF

I believe that the best way to maximize yeast growth over bacteria to make a less sour bread is controlling your temperature. Maintaining a temperature of around 75˚ will accomplish this. You can read more about it here.

Sammie1's picture
Sammie1

Hmmm

You may have hit the nail on the head. This has been over the summer and I'm where temps get 100 and the house is about 80+ (otherwise the AC would cost too much).

Sammie1's picture
Sammie1

I wonder also how keeping my starter in the fridge may play into this. I can't feed it twice a day throughout the week. Does feeding it once a week and keeping it in the fridge give the LAB an advantage over the yeast? 

KathyF's picture
KathyF

It is my understanding that low temperatures have the same effect as high temperatures in favoring bacteria growth over yeast, albeit much more slowly. My suggestion would be to keep your main starter in the fridge and take a small amount out to build up your starter for your recipe. Keep it in a cool spot and feed when the starter peaks, but before it falls and use it before it falls. You might also try using cool water when feeding the starter and maybe keep it in a ceramic crock. Mine lives in a crock on my counter and I think that helped it keep from getting too warm. I should of checked its temperature during the summer to see if it really helped or not.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

a mix of YW and SD levains.  There is no sour component in YW and it helps to counteract the sour in SD.  If using a combo starter make sure to refresh it 3 rimes with white flour at room temperature and 100% hydration - use it young as Chad Robertson says - 1 hour after the last refreshment - no retarding of the dough either.  If you want you can put a pinch of yeast in the mix to speed things up and keep the sour down.

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

...what you mean by 'yeast flavour'?

In my experience, bread made with bakers' yeast doesn't, and shouldn't, taste of yeast at all. I'm quite sensitive to the taste of yeast and if I detected it in my bread I'd think something was wrong.

Is it possible that, in the absence of that mouth puckering sourness you're used to, you're tasting the wheat and assuming it's the yeast?

dobie's picture
dobie

Jon

I just looked at Sammie1's original recipe and notice the use of 1 Tablespoon of Active Dry Yeast in a recipe with 3 cups of AP.

To my experience, that is way overkill and probably the source of the 'yeast flavour' Sammie1 is used to.

I'm assuming that Sammie1 is keeping the sponge in the fridge overnight as if it were at (even a cool) room temp, it would almost be explosive (particularly with the sugar and milk sugars).

I would think 1/4 ts ACYeat would be sufficient at room temp (1/2 at most).

Just guessing. What do you think?

dobie

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

Your guess is probably way better than mine. When I see a recipe based on cups I stop reading. I have no feel for what that means. Likewise, I always weigh yeast, so a teaspoonful doesn't immediately bring to mind a quantity, especially as it may be coarser or finer than the dried yeast I use.

If you think that's a lot then that's probably where the yeast taste is coming from.

dobie's picture
dobie

Jon

I just weighed 1 TB of (Red Star) ADYeast and came up with about 9g (or 0.3oz). Assuming (I guess) about 5oz per cup (or about 142g per cup) of flour in the recipe the 3 cups would equal 15oz (426g). That would make the yeast to be ???%  Can you help with the math (it is not my friend)? I am using 28.4g to an oz (and my scale sucks, only to within 2 grams).

I'm getting between 3.8 and 4.5% (depending on whether I'm using oz or g). Please let me know how you did it (if you can do it, which I think you can). Also, what is the normal % of yeast?

But I can tell you for sure, as far as spoon/cup measurements go, this is way overboard, particularly for a sponge or poolish for 12 hours at room temp.

Thanks

dobie

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

As I said: cups & spoons. Foreign territory for me.

dobie's picture
dobie

Yes Jon

I understand.

Forgetting the cups and spoons, forgetting ounces or grams, what would a reasonable percentage of yeast be in a recipe? I honestly don't know other than I would think it would be pretty low (like 1 or 2%).

And sometimes, no matter how hard I try, I can't get the math even close, let alone replicate it (when I attempt to).

I am essentially a math idiot. Of course, once I learn the trip, I'm good, but, until then, I'm fairly useless.

dobie

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

It depends on how long you want the fermentation to take and at what temperature.

For a pair of loaves with an unbaked weight of around 1,100g each I'd usually use between two and five grams of quick yeast. That's equivalent to about six to 17g of fresh yeast, according to the yeast manufacturer's site, or 0.25% to 0.65% of unbaked weight.

dobie's picture
dobie

Jon

Usually, just long enough to hang myself. :-)

Thanks for the info. 0.25% to 0.65% makes sense to me. If I'm doing the math right, the original recipe comes in at around 2.10% (9g yeast to 426g flour).

dobie

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

...but dried yeast is sold in 7g sachets and that seems to be the amount most back-of-bag recipes for a single loaf call for: 7g of dried yeast to 500g of flour.

But tasting yeast suggests under-baking to me, as the taste is usually killed by baking. It would have to be under-baked by a considerable amount, though. That's why I'm wondering if it really is the taste of yeast we're talking about.

dobie's picture
dobie

Jon

I don't think under-baking is the cause, but it does make sense.

Back in the Dark Ages (when my recipes came back-of-bag or from 'Joy of Cooking'), when I used one 7g sachet for a single loaf of bread, there was invariably a very strong yeast aroma to the bread. I don't recall it as a taste but rather a smell. And those breads were not usually under-baked.

I do recall being very fond of it and thinking that this is what real bread smelled like. I don't experience it at all nowadays (not even a little bit).

I don't think Sammie1 is going to be able to achieve it with wild yeast, but if there is a way, I would think Yeast Water would be it.

Just an aside; I looked at those yeast satchets at the market the other day and as it turns out, when sold like that, yeast costs over $30 a pound for something that is normally about $3 a pound.

It's like those 'single serve' coffee (tea) bags. A good way to sell for $16 (or more) a pound the same product you normally would sell for only $3 or 4.

dobie

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

Smell and taste are so closely aligned that you could well be right there.

I've pointed out the difference in price of yeast in sachets and tins or vacuum-packed blocks a number of times to people. It had never occurred to most of them that there's a difference in price. A couple have preferred the 'convenience' of the 7g sachets. More money than sense.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

And I think tins are more convenient. You can measure out however much you need and conveniently store the rest till next time instead of packets where if the yeast you need is not a multiple of 7g then it's finicky to measure out and inconvenient to store. Now you tell me tins are economically sound too!

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

Only if you don't blindly use seven grams of yeast every time you bake a loaf.

dobie's picture
dobie

And you can freeze the bulk of it and keep a small jar in the fridge for daily use.

I have read from someone on the forum that you shouldn't freeze it, that it will kill it. But I have frozen both Instant and Active Dry yeast for years with no detriment. If it's not used up after 5 years, I will eventually swap it out with new.

Maybe they meant not to freeze fresh baker's yeast, but I don't know much about that product.

The numbers are staggering. At $5 for a 2 lb brick (908g) of either yeast, the 3g I use for 6 lbs of dough that makes 4 - 1.5 lb loaves, costs me less than $0.02 (or a half a penny per loaf).

Even if I were using 7g per loaf, that would be less than $0.04 per loaf compared to $0.66 per satchet.

At the cost of bulk yeast, you could make 16 loaves (at 7g per) for the same $0.66 cost of one 7g satchet.

I think that's pretty amazing.

dobie

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Shouldn't need freezing at all. Can last a long time just kept in the fridge. I think that freezing could actually mean fresh cake yeast.

dobie's picture
dobie

Thanks Abe

Yes, fresh cake yeast. I knew there was a better name for it but I couldn't come up with it.

I had always heard 5 years in the freezer, 1 year in the fridge. But where did I hear that? I don't know (it was so long ago).

But I agree, I've never had a problem even after 1 year in the fridge. The last of my Instant yeast has been in the fridge about 18 months and seems no worse for the wear. I use the same amount to the same affect as when it was new.

dobie

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

sometimes known as Fresh Yeast. Or Cake Yeast. And to make everyone happy I say Fresh Cake Yeast.

Fresh Cake Yeast kept in an airtight container in the fridge can last for a few months. I've never frozen it though but believe it can be done. Of course there are no certainties Dobie. You'll always find someone forgot they had some and it still worked.

dobie's picture
dobie

A few months is a lot better than the few weeks I had heard of.

I've only used fresh cake yeast once about 20 years ago when I found it on the supermarket shelf. It was close to the butter and I thought at first that is what it was, wrapped in metalicized paper. It was no more than a couple of TB's of butter in size, which is why I even took a closer look. I had never seen butter sold like that (and in fact, I still haven't), it was fresh cake yeast.

For many years I looked for it again, never to find it. I know I could go to a local bakery and probably buy some from them, but I never bothered.

Is there any advantage to using it rather than dry yeast?

Thanks,

dobie

Reynard's picture
Reynard

Fresh yeast also makes a good face pack for spotty skin ;-)

Most supermarkets with a in store bakery will either let you have a small quantity for free or charge you pennies for it.

drogon's picture
drogon

I was in a (not local) Sainsburys last week and on a whim asked in the bakery section - 200g was 60p, so I got some. (Morrisons sells 4 x 42g cubes in a tray for 50p - in the butter/lard section)

I goes against my organic grain, but it was fun to try some.

(There is only one organic yeast that I know of in Europe - Bioreal made in Germany - I wish there were more - the process, additives, etc. for commercial yeast is as industrialised as the Chorleywood bread process... )-:

-Gordon

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

...do use organic whenever possible. Doves Farm instant yeast is organic.

drogon's picture
drogon

and I don't think the Doves farm stuff ever has been... The only organic yeast I've found in Europe is the Bioreal stuff - I get it from Shipton Mill but it's also available from BakeryBits and Andrew Whitley. Shipton Mill and Bakery bits will ship fresh stuff as well as dried. (I only use the dried stuff as I use so little the fresh would go off before I used it all up)

-Gordon

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

I confess that I haven't really looked at a pack for many years, I just empty them into a tub and throw them away, but I could have sworn that it used to be organic. Thanks for disabusing me of that false impression.

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

...a puddle after a not-very-long time in the freezer. That's why I use dried yeast. Numerous tests have shown that the results are identical and the dried stuff keeps better. My only stipulation is that it must be certified organic and I only know of one such yeast in the UK.

Reynard's picture
Reynard

Dried active in this case. :-)

I use yeast according to how much time I have to keep an eye on dough i.e. more time = less yeast. My bread-in-a-hurry uses 6g of yeast for 450g of flour. That gives me a bulk ferment of around an hour and a proof of around 40 minutes.

If I'm not in a hurry, I will use 2g for the same basic recipe.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

for a medium loaf left to bulk ferment all night.

Or if fresh yeast then 1-2g.

 

500g bread flour

300g water

8g salt

1-2g fresh yeast (or 0.5g dried yeast)

 

Make the dough. Bulk Ferment overnight. 8-10 hours later shape and final proof for 35-40min then bake in a pre-heated oven.

Lovely! Tastes better with fresh yeast though.

dobie's picture
dobie

Alright Abe, I lied.

When I said I used 3g for 6 lbs of dough (about 2726g) I was just rounding the numbers up to get them close to accurate and keep them digestible.

I actually use 1.5g for a 2272g dough. That's 3X the yeast and 2.85X the size of your recipe. So, we're actually pretty darn close to the same.

I sometimes use a little less in the summer and a little more in the winter, but just a touch.

dobie

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

where is the 3/4 cup flour coming from?  

If I divide 3 cups in half, I get 1 1/2 cups  and I take it, part of that half cup is in the starter but certainly not 3/4 a cup of flour.  (big cups by the way)   So I would expect the flour amount to be over one cup not less at 3/4 cup.  What do you think?   

Sammie1's picture
Sammie1

I usually put the sponge in the oven with the light on when using the original recipe. It's more of a batter so you don't get a huge rise, just some bubbling. The flavor seems to be kind of yeast and alcohol. I know the waffles are going to be good when the overnight sponge smells a bit like beer. 

I'm going to try feeding it every 12 hours for a few days and then make them, see if that's the ticket. I had made some english muffins with my starter over the weekend. I had fed the starter once after taking it from the fridge (which it hadn't been fed in two weeks). The english muffins were a little too sour for my tastes without any depth of flavor. 

So I'm trying some TLC with it.

 

dabrownman,  I don't follow you completely. What does YW mean?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

cultivated starter made fro the natural yeast on fruits and contains no flour, just water and fruit in the nix.  Since it has no LAB there is no acid or sour component.  A perfect starter for those who don't like sour in bread and want to dump commercial yeast entirely,  Here is a post that explains it in more detail.

YW Primer
Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

.

Arjon's picture
Arjon

If it's not AP or bread flour, you can try taking a small amount of your starter and building it with AP or BF to make the starter that goes into your dough. This should produce somewhat less sourness, although I admit I've only fiddled a bit in the other direction, building out my AP starter with WW to get more sourness. 

yozzause's picture
yozzause

if you want to really understand the taste of fresh bakers yeast I suggest you do what we did as apprentices and try some, you will never forget it! Be warned it will stick to the roof of your mouth and well lets just say you will only ever try it once.

If you are up for taste testing, a spoon full of cinnamon is another thing to avoid not some much the taste  but the way its likely to exit your nose. All those juvenile bakers pranks  that apprentices seem to have to endure. 

With regard to Sammie1 's starter, I think the tang can be reduced by building the amount of starter required for a bake over a few feeds out of the fridge starting with just a small amount say 10g which will yield 30g after the first feed  90g after the 2nd feed 270g after the 3rd feed. This should give the yeasts the chance to assert themselves and be less dominated by the bacteria which is probably able to take advantage of life in the cool of the fridge.

If you choose to go down the commercial yeast dough path then i suggest a fast 1 hr dough with relatively high amount of yeast @18.5%. These doughs were often made in the days before modern bread improvers if there became a need for bread in a hurry, the bread was not as good as the normal doughs that might have been made with 4 to 8 hours bulk fermentation time, and were regarded to have a "yeasty" flavour.

Out of interest I have included from my old tech notes a chart for yeast quantities. bearing in mind these go back 45 years or  so and are in lbs & ozs  and a bag of flour weighed 150lbs and using compressed  (cake) yeast

DOUGH TIME                       8 HOURS  =  1lb per bag

                                              7 HOURS  =  1.25 lb per bag

                                              6 HOURS  =  1.5 lb per bag  

                                              5 HOURS  =  1.75 lb per bag   

                                             4 HOURS  =  2 lb per bag    

                                             3 HOURS  =  3 lb per bag 

                                             2 HOURS  =  4 lb per bag

                                             1 HOUR  =  8 lb per bag

Kind regards Derek

 

Sammie1's picture
Sammie1

It's an AP starter.

I usually put the sponge in the oven with the light on when using the original recipe. It's more of a batter so you don't get a huge rise, just some bubbling. The flavor seems to be kind of yeast and alcohol. I know the waffles are going to be good when the overnight sponge smells a bit like beer. 

I'm going to try feeding it every 12 hours for a few days and then make them, see if that's the ticket. I had made some english muffins with my starter over the weekend. I had fed the starter once after taking it from the fridge (which it hadn't been fed in two weeks). The english muffins were a little too sour for my tastes without any depth of flavor. 

So I'm trying some TLC with it.

 

dabrownman,  I don't follow you completely. What does YW mean?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Another kind of natural yeast from fruit

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

From what I'm gathering, the hooch taste seems to be what "that yeast taste" might be.  

Now to get it with sourdough,

  • why not add yeast extract to get that nutty flavour
  • or kill some active yeast to get the flavour of the fermented coating around the yeast.
  • Dissolve some active yeast in water and when it has hooched, nuke it to kill it and toss into the dough mix so it doesn't interfere with the sourdough.  
  • Or just heat up the dry active yeast and toss it in dead.  :)
  • It might be the malt around the yeast that is giving the flavour.  Add malt and see what happens.
  • How about changing the refined sugar to brown sugar?
Sammie1's picture
Sammie1

You may be right that it's the hooch taste. I'm trying to get away from commercial yeast however so I'm hoping I can recreate it with my starter. I guess I need a better environment for the yeast and less favorable one for the LAB.

Digging around on this site, I'm a bit confused if a stiffer batter would help with that. Indoor temps are improved now that it's fall.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

firmer starters favour yeasts and wetter starters favour LAB. But that will have tot be confirmed.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

There are a few good recipes floating around here...  try site searching for   ale sourdough  or  stout sourdough 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

I'm not being rude but that is the name of the Ale used in this recipe http://tartine-bread.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/arrogant-bastard.html

Works very well with guinness beer or anything else you wish to use instead. Perhaps a cider too. 

 

dobie's picture
dobie

Abe

I must admit that I shuddered when I read the title of you post. Yet, like a train wreck, I just had to check it out immediately. I am glad it was all good.

I'm a ways away from swapping out water with other liquids, but I will check out your link as that day is not too far away (still building the foundation for now). Of course, there's always 'anything can happen Thursday' were I might take that risk.

I have seen 'Arrogant Bastard' at my local beer distributor and immediately thought that was great advertising.

I have a friend (who is not at all a baker) who on a lark, took a bottle of some dark beer and following a found recipe, turned out an incredible (simple ingredient) bread. I tried my hand at it and failed miserably. Oh well, I am not afraid.

dobie

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Sorry, couldn't help myself :)

It's a great recipe and don't worry about swapping water for Ale. The process is exactly the same. To me this just made sense to do it with guinness and it turned out so good! 

 

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

When you use the finest ingredients you can expect the finest results.

Not that I'm prejudiced at all. At all.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

They call beer "liquid bread" and guinness just makes me think of liquid bread. It was a mighty fine loaf. 

I only get a chance to bake once a week and its been a while since I've made it. Got one or two breads on the pipeline but gotta try this again soon. 

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

...but, like much on the Internet, the software this site uses can't handle apostrophes in names. Apparently, it's an 'illegal character'. Actually, it's a combination of ignorance and laziness. Apostrophes delimit strings in most programming languages and you have to make special provision for them. Most programmers either have no idea or don't care.

Do you use bottled Guinness or 'draught' from a can?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Sainburys had a screw cap bottled guinness which is good for the preferment then storing till the next day for the remainder to be added. Since then they only stock the cap bottles which will make that more difficult but still doable. 

I actually prepared the preferment from one bottle then worked out how much I needed for the rest of the recipe then weighed out the remainder for a guilty drink. Couldn't help myself. Next time I buy two bottles :)

 

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

...multi-purposed.

Never used it in bread but have in stews. I should give it a try.

I was brought up on 'sips' from adults' glasses, which were more likely to be knocking on the door of 'quaffs'. It was sold in quart bottles with a solid, screw stopper in those days.

dobie's picture
dobie

Jon O(apostrophe)Brien,

As I'm sure you are probably well aware, beware the salt in cooking sherry. I've been told it was added to keep it in the house (lest the cooks drink it all), but I don't know.

I, too, was brought up on sips from adults glasses.

However, the first full beer I had was when I was 10 years old and I found it (obviously falling from someone's pack) on the path home from the ballpark. It was in a can (surprisingly 'frosty cold') and must have been one of the earliest pull tabs (as I didn't have so much as a pocket knife on me to open it) and so, being dirty, sweaty and thirsty, the rest is history.

I drank it down in one long, slow sip. Best beer I've ever had (of its ilk) and I still search for that crisp, refreshing flavor every time I open one. Haven't found it yet, but I will keep trying, until I do.

Definitely doing Angry Bastard levain tomorrow.

dobie

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

I'd rather beware the cooking sherry. In fact, all the sherry. Foul stuff. It reminds me of oxidised wine. But my wife keeps a bottle in the kitchen and she doesn't salt it. She's never cooked with it, either.

So, if you can't find it to buy, why aren't you trying to make that beer? Wet bread, and all that. I have five gallons of bitter that's been over two months fermenting and is now on the point of being transferred to a keg.

dobie's picture
dobie

Jon

I didn't mean that you would salt it, rather that (at least here in the States) it comes with salt in it. In fact, cooking sherry is sold in the grocery store with no age requirement to purchase it.

The salt component is considered to make it so unpalatable that it is not considered, nor treated as an alcoholic beverage even though it is as alcoholic as any other sherry, or so I've been told.

That is why cooking sherry (as such), is popular in commercial kitchens by management. Who would drink it?

I'm glad you're brewing beer. A man after my own heart. I have never yet done that, but it is on my short list.

I was somewhat kidding about the taste of that first beer. But it made an impression on my young self much as a first love would (a few years later). In many ways, the firsts are most memorable, even if not the best.

dobie

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

...would, traditionally, salt it to stop their cook from drinking it.

Hideous idea. Definitely doesn't happen here.

But I wouldn't cook with any wine I wouldn't drink. If you use the best ingredients you get the best results.

dobie's picture
dobie

Jon

I couldn't agree more.

dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

Yeah, you got me pretty good there Abe.

I allow myself one 'anything can happen' bake a week, and for this week, so far, it is between your Angry Bastard bread and bboop's lemon/rosemary bread. We're only days away, so who knows?

Francis-Olive sure turns out some fine looking bread (great pics as well). I love the swirl scoring done on the title pic.

I am going to go get me an Angry Bastard tomorrow and in all probability begin the process. It certainly seems do-able.

Two questions. What is meant by 'BRM' rye? I'm assuming I can just mill my own berries?

Also, did you notice how deep his scoring was? Way beyond the1/4 inch I hear about so often. I guess the picture doesn't lie. What are your thoughts?

Maybe this week I will allow myself two 'anything can happen' loaves.

Thanks,

dobie

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

I'm sure it'll be fine. I too had the question what is BRM Rye. I just used wholemeal rye I buy in my local shop. I remember doing a search back then but couldn't remember the answer so just did another one. Wait for it.... I think it means Bob's Red Mill Rye :)

About scoring... I'm not the greatest of scorers so its rather a hit or miss with me. If its a dryer dough, under 70%,  I do the final proofing seam side down so the seams act like a natural scoring. If its a wetter dough then I just do my best. 

Looking forward to seeing your bake Dobie. And ive never done it with Arrogant Bastard so looking forward to results. I like the sound of bboop's rosemary and Olive Oil bread too. So do that one to. That's on my things to do list. 

dobie's picture
dobie

Thank you Abe

Bob's Red Mill makes sense as to BRM. I will just mill the rye berries I have and use unsifted.

Nor am I an expert scorer, but I have noticed more success the more aggressive I've become, definitely deeper than 1/4 inch.

bboops rosemary/lemon bread sounds great. I'm thinking sourdough and perhaps thyme and lime.

I really do have to work on resizing and posting pics. At a certain point, they become relevant.

dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

Abe and Jon,

As circumstances would have it, 'anything can happen' Thursday has become 'anything can happen' Friday. But that did allow me the opportunity to get some fresh thyme and lemon for bboops reciepe as well as a bottle of Arrogant Bastard.

Six dollars for the bottle, but the 'label' itself is probably worth the price. First, it's not your usual label, it is printed in enamel paint directly on the glass (no paper, plastic or glue involved). Under the main logo graphic of a snarling devil with mug in hand is the phrase 'You're Not Worthy'.

The back of the bottle reads like a bottle of Dr. Bronner's Soap and is quite entertaining.

At the very bottom is this little gem; 'QUESTIONS or COMMENTS? If you don't like this beer, keep it to yourself - we don't want to hear from any sniveling yellow-beer drinkin' wimps, 'cause this beer wasn't made for you.'

Beer with an attitude, not doubt. I'm looking forward to a taste.

Anyway, I'm off to mill the rye, the levain starts tonight.

dobie

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

Good web site and nice promotional style but 7.2% for the weakest of their beers? Way too headache for me. I hope it makes a good loaf.

dobie's picture
dobie

Jon

Me too.

dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

Jon (or anyone else who may know),

What I thought was a bag of rye berrys, was in fact a bag of barley. How interchangeable might they be when milled? They are both quite new to me, enough so that I can't predict.

I would really like to start this tonight if possible, but if I must, I will get proper rye in the AM.

dobie

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Maybe get started on a half rye/barley vollkornbrot.  Barley just sort of exists and is pretty much neutral.  The other flours combined with it will determine the behaviour.  Have fun.  

dobie's picture
dobie

Mini

That's a very good idea.

I really want to follow the Arrogant Bastard recipe as close as possible, so I backed out of adding it to barley flour and that recipe will now have to wait.

I did mix 46g active starter, 156g barley flour and 156g water that is now 10 hours in. I am completely open to my next move.

I am off to the store for some Rye berries, so all things will be possible.

Thanks

dobie

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

You might find that several feeds will build up the yeast numbers.  Start out with that tablespoon of mature refrigerated starter and add twice the amount of water and enough flour to thicken it to a soft paste, let it rise and when it looks like it reached peak, add more water to double the amount and add flour to make a soft paste.  Try not to make too big a jump too fast and use instead several small steps to build up the starter amount that you need.  Try to keep the temps in the lower to middle 70's°F.  or  22° to 23°C  Save a spoonful to keep the starter going and replace the very sour starter still in the fridge.  If you keep discarding and feeding the starter for several days on the counter about twice a day, the yeast population will increase nicely.  You will want to feed it just as it peaks and starts to level out.  if the starter peaks too quickly give the starter more flour to munch on so it reaches a peak in about 8 to 9 hours for a 12 hour feeding.  

When you are ready to chill the starter again, use more flour if you like and ferment the starter a little bit before chilling.  Let it rise about 1/3 to what would be peaking, cover and chill.  This gives the yeast lots of food for the next few weeks.  If you need it for a bake within the next 4 days, remove some and let it warm up and mature first before feeding it.  

The right LABs are not so sour and more cheesy.  Don't be afraid to taste your culture while it ferments and note the changes.   

dobie's picture
dobie

MO

Just to let you know, I'm paying attention and taking notes.

Thanks

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

in some of the gaps

YW Primer
dobie's picture
dobie

Thank you dbm

I've been looking high and low for that link this past week (occasionally) and somehow it had alluded me. It's so easy for me to become distracted by other interesting things.

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

to save a post you want go back to later and make it easier to find.  After a few years your bookmarked list can get pretty big though :-)

I know what you mean.  A few years after college, i was working for a fortune 500 engineering and manufacturing company and once you got to a certain level and they thought you might be corporate material,you were given a battery of tests by the corporate psychologist before you could be promoted any higher in the organization.  Oh Boy!

One test was an aptitude IQ test, another was a character attributes test to see if you were a lying, cheating, deceitful, thieving, bastard and another was a test to determine what your personal interests were in life and what you really wanted to do for your working career.  At the end of this ordeal, the psychologist said I have the aptitude and character attributes to do anything I want at the company,  But I had to decide what it is I want to do because he said that my tests showed i want to do everything.   He said that wasn't a good thing and that I needed to focus in on a segment of the business if I wanted to get ahead at the company.

I told him i had every intention of doing everything and told him I was quitting the net day anyway to be COO of their joint venture in Saudi Arabia..  I twas a big surprise for them and everyone else i knew at the time, but ,I had been working in their International Division for several years and knew the president of the joint venture very well.  it was the best decision I ever made.  So, it is OK to be distracted by other interesting things simply because they are interesting and you need to be distracted by them in order to be happy...

Happy baking  

dobie's picture
dobie

dbm

That's a great story. Thanks for sharing.

Being a 'Renaissance Man (or Woman)' can be very troublling..., to those who want to define and contain you in a neat little box that they can stack on their shelf.

Throughout my adult life, I have always allowed myself the time to redefine myself (roles and goals-wise) at least once a year. Shed the old skin for new. Sometimes I maintain the course, other times, alter it (to mix metaphors). But it keeps me doing what I really want to do and not be trapped in the 'same old grind'.

It's usually something I do around September (I guess because traditionally 'School' started then) and winter is a great time to read up on and plot my new twist for the spring offensive.

Be sure, I have added your Yeast Water tutorial to my Bookmark list. I did know about Bookmarks, but had only used it once before. Cocky old me always figures I can find my way back, but sometimes searches bring up so many hits, that it can be very difficult to do and YW is one of them.

But then again, there are all those lovely distractions along the path.

Sometimes tho, I do have to force myself to focus (to make progress) and thus, the short lists of books and persuits.

My sense is that most people on this forum are fairly accomplished in a number of persuits. I think it's a large part of what makes it so interesting. So many perspectives.

Thanks again

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

is retirement.  It sounds like a piece of cake but it more like a piece of pie and there is nothing on this earth better than a piece of pie.. Lucy says any pumpernickel is better but she isn't a 2nd class for nothing :-)

dobie's picture
dobie

Very funny dbm

Anyone who doesn't like pie is a suspect '2nd class' in my mind, no matter their breeding.

dobie

ccsdg's picture
ccsdg

I read here and there about the starter used in panettone, lievito madre.  From what I can gather it's a very stiff, fast-rising and non-sour sourdough starter, fed more frequently than average to maximise yeast and minimise bacteria.  Couldn't one keep one's starter like that normally, make bread in the same manner, and thus make very mild bread which is otherwise still technically sourdough?  I always thought the sourness of a starter was endlessly modifiable, but I don't know where I learnt that from.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

king of panettone and lrevito madre on TFL , His handle is mwilson and if you search for lievito mafre and panettone you will get a deep lesson on both.  Keeping a starter under water is weird but has to be fun and twice as difficult.  Every time i make the starter for panettone for New Years, I end up with a bucket load of white discard that takes me forever to use up but the panettone is worth it!

ccsdg's picture
ccsdg

Oh yes, mwilson's posts are definitely where I've gleaned most of the little I know about panettone.  I was thinking you could get a sweeter/milder starter by leaning the feedings more closely to how a lievito madre is done?  Though I've never done it myself so I don't know how far you could take it without going the whole hog (and the buckets of discard as you mentioned).

Sammie1's picture
Sammie1

I tried some waffles after making sure the starter was very fresh. Still more tang than I'd like but improved. I may try adjusting the flour/liquid ratio to make a stiffer batter and see if that favors the yeast.