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Baking powder crumpet experiment, raising problem. Google didn't help.

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

Baking powder crumpet experiment, raising problem. Google didn't help.

If this post if too long a read, just jump to the end for the question.

 

You might have noticed, I am on a crumpet crusade.

My goal is to make a decent crumpet, one that has good texture and flavour.

At least decent to me, I do realise it's very personal.

I've been experimenting a lot, for my original post see here http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/43608/crumpet-inconsistencies-please-help

In short; recipes I found on line didn't please me. Some were even vile, unreacted baking soda yuck!

I asked you for help, and help you did.

I got a lot of advice and was able to concoct a recipe that included that advice.

It's more of an experiment than a recipe but I digress.

Advice that I incorporated in this crumpet recipe that uses yeast and baking powder was; add vinegar, add oil, incorporate dry baking powder into batter by sifting it in and whisking quickly.

I also got advice on how much approximately of these things to use.

Made a estimate on the baking powder amount myself by googling "baking soda to baking powder conversion" and taking the first crumpet recipe I've ever tried as a reference.

This is the reference recipe that I worked off off http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2013/mar/21/how-to-cook-perfect-crumpets

it calls for 1/2 tsp (2.5 ml) of bicarb/baking soda and I took that amount and multiplied by 4 because that is what most sites recommend when converting baking soda to baking powder.

So in the end I used 2 tsp (10ml) of baking powder for my chemical raising agent.

I told myself that if this flopped horribly that I'd try a crumpet recipe with baking soda (as most do) and just add vinegar in the appropriate amounts to neutralise the metallic taste.

Other changes that I made;

-I used a different amount of yeast, less than most recipes which have an overpowering yeasty aroma (I used not so much that it's very noticeable in flavour, but enough to leaven the dough/batter), -I used the 2 step method (make drier batter first with yeast, rise, add more liquid and chemical leavener) and used as little liquid in the starting batter as I thought was good (less liquid than most) because in my experience this improves the texture in the finished product, I suspect this improves gluten formation (I could be wrong though),

-I baked these on a hotplate instead of a pan. Great success, makes it easier to control heat, it's a big flat surface, you can fit more rings unto it compared to most pans. I recommend it to everyone who has a hotplate.

As for the result; they came out better than all the other recipes I tried so that is a minor victory, I must be on the right path.

It still needs tweaking, the thing I was most displeased with was the size of the holes in the crumpets and the amount and depth of the holes on top.

The last thing that needs work is the flavour, they did not taste bad but they definitely don't taste like pancakes enough (that is pancakes we make in the netherlands, not american ones).

Sainsbury's crumpets tasted like pancakes, these taste more like bread.

Things I graded on were;

-How is the structure (does it have enough holes, how about the holes on top? What about the crumb and wetness of the cooked dough/batter)

Answer; Enough number of holes on top, most of the holes were not very deep though (about 3mm), inside the structure is looking stalagmity (with air channels going up but sometimes not making it all the way to the surface) and the feel of the cooked dough was a bit on the wet side inside, maybe adding one less tbsp of liquid could fix it.

-How is the yeast flavour? (is it overpowering? How noticeable is it?)

Answer; amount of yeast seems to be right, no overpowering flavour and dough/batter did rise enough in the first step.

-How detectable is the vinegar?

Answer; amount of vinegar is not bad, not very detectable, only very very faintly there. My mother didn't notice it at all.

-How much of a metallic flavour does it have?

Answer; the baking powder doesn't taste metallic but you can definitely tell it is there. Not necessarily a bad thing, just noticeable. The crumpet recipe that I made that tasted most like sainsbury's crumpets used only yeast as a raising agent, but sainsbury's uses baking powder themselves so this is a mystery to me.

 

This is the recipe/experiment that I made these crumpets with;

 

Serves 4, half recipe in brackets
1tsp sugar [1/2 tsp]
200ml whole milk (leave 50 ml for later at baking powder stage) [100ml, leave out 25ml]
100ml boiling water [50ml]
9,57 ml (approx 2 tsps) dried yeast [4,78ml]
150g strong white flour [75gr]
100g plain flour [50gr]

1 ~ 2,5 tbsp vinegar [0,5 ~ 1,25 tbsp]

16,6 ml oil[8,3ml]

salt, less than 3,5 ml [less than 1,75ml]

8,75 ~ 10ml baking powder [4,37 ~ 5ml]
oil for cooking and greasing rings



Mix the sugar, milk and boiling water in a jug and stir in the yeast. Leave in a warm place for 15 minutes until frothy.

Combine the flours in a large mixing bowl with the salt. Stir in the liquid and mix vigorously until smooth. Now mix in the oil and the vinegar. Add some of the milk you put aside if the dough is too dry. Cover with hot damp towel and leave in a warm place for between one-and-a-half and two hours until the batter is a mass of tiny bubbles.

Add 50 ml warm water and 50 ml warm milk and stir it into the batter until combined. Sift in baking powder and combine well. Cover with hot damp towel and leave in a warm place for 15 minutes.

Grease crumpet rings and pan (or hotplate) with oil, place rings in pan and preheat on a medium-low heat (if using hotplate choose a heat setting between 163 and just below 200 degrees celsius). Ladle a spoonful of batter into each ring, so they are about half full.

Cook until the top is dry and festooned with holes, then push the crumpets out of the rings (you may need a knife for this operation or a toothpick). If eating immediately, toast the tops under a hot grill until golden, then serve. If you're keeping them, cool on a wire rack, then toast on both sides to reheat.

The amounts that I chose were 2 tbsp of vinegar, just a pinch of salt, 2tsp (10ml) baking powder, full liquid amount (which turned out a wee bit too much)

Now here comes my problem; adding the baking powder to the batter did not produce a fluffy sticky elastic dough full of bubbles and increase in volume. It did have some bubbles, but there seemed to be no increase in volume. I didn't keep an eye on it as it rested 15 minutes in a warm place (stupid of me, I know) so maybe I missed the fluff up and it went down again before the 15 minutes were over. I doubt it though, I think I would have seen a tide line on the bowl.

So here's the question; is there something in this recipe (or method) that could interfere with the raising power of my baking powder?

(baking powder is fresh, worked in recipes last week).

I googled for an answer but only found someone saying that combining vinegar and baking powder should not be a problem.

Any advice is appreciated.

Update number 1;

Tried it without oil 

and I got the same "no rise" problem. So the problem does not lie with the oil. When I left it to rise with the baking powder in it I put it into a warm-ish place (25 degrees) for 15 minutes and it would not bubble, I peeked at it every 5 minutes to make sure I didn't miss any explosion of bubbles. Instead of having another unsatisfactory batch I decided to leave it to rise for longer and in a warmer area. I put it into my 40 degree celsius oven for an extra 10 minutes and got some good bubbles going on. Nothing like you would expect from baking powder and not an elasticky, frothy, sticky batter but bubbly nonetheless.

I decided to bake crumpets with that and got a very good texture inside and out. I'm definitely content with the texture, it had big and deep holes on top and air channels inside that went from the bottom all the way to the top.

Now all that needs tweaking is the flavour, they still taste more like bread than they do of pancakes. But they were delicious enough to eat cold, and I wasn't even that hungry.

Optional experiments;

-one where I add the vinegar at the baking powder stage instead of in the beginning

-one where I use vinegar and baking soda instead of baking powder.

-one with buttermilk instead of vinegar

Update number 2:

Tried an experiment without baking powder but instead with bicarbonate of soda and vinegar and it was a failure.

Today I made crumpets following the same method as posted above (sans oil), but instead of baking powder I used a much smaller amount of baking soda (bicarb). I just appropriate amounts of both bicarb and vinegar (1tsp bicarb, 2.5 tbsp vinegar to 200~250 gr flour), the amounts of which I was advised by someone on the other page.

One thing that stood out was that when I added the bicarb the reaction was immediate (as opposed to the delayed reaction I got with baking powder which needed more time and warmth to coax bubbles out of it). The hotplate wasn't warm enough by the time the reaction seemed at its peak, but luckily when it was warm enough I still had some bubbles left.

I used the same temperature for baking as I did yesterday because yesterday I had beautiful crumpets with light golden brown bottoms. This was a big mistake but apparently this is how I learn. Not only did these brown much faster on the bottom (got to a chestnut colour really quick) but the colour of the overall crumpets was different. Yesterday's crumpets with baking powder were a bit paler than golden on the sides, these were a violent yellow-brown on the sides and chestnut on the bottom. The inside was rubbish as well, more of a sponge cake interior with sparse sporadic holes. My partner said the mouthfeel and flavour were soapy. The first crumpets I ever made had a very strong metallic soapy taste so these were much less bad, but I could also see what he meant. They did taste slightly soapy.

I believe it was Mini Oven that said that baking soda (aka bicarb) contributed to the browning of baked goods, but I had no idea how big the effect was.

An idea came to mind hoping I could add less baking powder than I did yesterday; what if there is a way to combine the bubbles made by yeast with the bubbles made by baking powder? Usually in this 2 step process, you add only yeast in the beginning and rise, then you add more liquid (beating all the air out of the dough/batter in the process) and add the baking powder and rise for a short while (15~20 minutes or so). Most of the bubbles produced in this stage are from the baking powder. If my goal is to lower the amount of baking powder (because of the flavor) could I call upon the power of the yeast and the lesser amount of baking powder combined to form the bubbly batter?

What If I added both the yeast and the lower amount of baking powder at the beginning since the baking powder needs a pretty long time to react. I mean, for some reason in this recipe, the reaction of the baking powder is slowed down significantly. If I added them both at the beginning there is no reason to beat the air out of it later on. Some crumpet recipes do have a one step process, but I'm curious if it would allow me to use less baking powder and still get a frothy, sticky, bubbly batter.

On to the next experiment.

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

In the UK we traditionally use malt vinegar. Is it possible that the vinegar you used was less acidic than our malt vinegar?

Also, is it possible that, by adding the oil and vinegar to the batter in the first stage, the oil somehow buffered the vinegar, preventing the baking powder and vinegar from fully interacting? I seem to recall that in some, at least, of the two stage methods the chemical leavener was mixed with water before adding to the batter. That is what Elizabeth David's recipe call for. Worth trying next time?

[Edit] I meant, might it be worth mixing vinegar and water with the baking powder in the second stage next time? Sorry that wasn't clear.

Grasping at straws, perhaps, but I don't have anything else at the moment.

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

I used standard vinegar, the stuff that comes in big cheap bottles and is usable for almost anything including putting it in salad dressings and cleaning with it. I believe it's called "white vinegar" in the UK. According to wikipedia it's also called "spirit vinegar" or "distilled vinegar" which is commonly used in baking products. There could be a difference in the acidity between white and malt vinegar, but I just googled it and the difference in the acidity is 0.1 ph point. The acidity is measured in ph, the lower the number is the more acidic the vinegar is. White vinegar has a ph of 2.4 and malt vinegar has a ph of 2.5. Not a big difference.

It's worth a shot to add the vinegar in the second stage to the batter, just before putting the baking powder dry (I sift it over the bowl with a fine mesh sieve) into the batter and mixing it well.

The problem with adding vinegar in the second stage is that you can't benefit from the vinegars tendency to affect the gluten positively (A small amount of vinegar acts like a dough conditioner by slowing down the growth of the yeast and making stronger sheets of gluten in the dough.) I hope that getting stronger gluten sheets will get me bigger holes, but I don't know if that guess is true.

Problem is, if you mix bs with water before adding it to the batter nothing bad happens because there is no acid to react with, if you mix bp with water you get instant fizz and lose some of the gas that should be in the batter. Much better to mix the liquid into the batter and after that mix in the bp dry.

It could also be worth a shot to leave out the oil altogether, see if it does anything.

Thanks for the food for thought.

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

and I got the same "no rise" problem. So the problem does not lie with the oil. When I left it to rise with the baking powder in it I put it into a warm-ish place (25 degrees) for 15 minutes and it would not bubble, I peeked at it every 5 minutes to make sure I didn't miss any explosion of bubbles. Instead of having another unsatisfactory batch I decided to leave it to rise for longer and in a warmer area. I put it into my 40 degree celsius oven for an extra 10 minutes and got some good bubbles going on. Nothing like you would expect from baking powder and not an elasticky, frothy, sticky batter but bubbly nonetheless.

I decided to bake crumpets with that and got a very good texture inside and out. I'm definitely content with the texture, it had big and deep holes on top and air channels inside that went from the bottom all the way to the top.

Now all that needs tweaking is the flavour, they still taste more like bread than they do of pancakes. But they were delicious enough to eat cold, and I wasn't even that hungry.

Optional experiments;

-one where I add the vinegar at the baking powder stage instead of in the beginning

-one where I use vinegar and baking soda instead of baking powder.

-one with buttermilk instead of vinegar

-make a crumpet with 100% strong flour in the hope that the holes will be bigger (what's your take on this?)

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

I doubt that strong flour is the solution for several reasons: wheat grown in the UK doesn't usually have very high levels of protein, which is why we import a lot of grain from Canada, so crumpets are unlikely to have been made with strong flour originally; many recipes call for a 50:50 mix of plain and strong flour; and too much gluten development might trap bubbles, rather than letting them rise to the surface. The last is pure conjecture and might be nonsense.

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

I think I'll stick with the 50-50 or 40-60 ratio of strong to plain flour for now. I'll be doing a crumpet batch tonight that has baking soda and vinegar (and no baking powder). I have to do some repairs on an IKEA drawer anyway so I have the time to make some batter in the meantime.

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

Today I made crumpets following the same method as posted above (sans oil), but instead of baking powder I used a much smaller amount of baking soda (bicarb). I just appropriate amounts of both bicarb and vinegar (1tsp bicarb, 2.5 tbsp vinegar to 200~250 gr flour), the amounts of which I was advised by someone on the other page.

One thing that stood out was that when I added the bicarb the reaction was immediate (as opposed to the delayed reaction I got with baking powder which needed more time and warmth to coax bubbles out of it). The hotplate wasn't warm enough by the time the reaction seemed at its peak, but luckily when it was warm enough I still had some bubbles left.

I used the same temperature for baking as I did yesterday because yesterday I had beautiful crumpets with light golden brown bottoms. This was a big mistake but apparently this is how I learn. Not only did these brown much faster on the bottom (got to a chestnut colour really quick) but the colour of the overall crumpets was different. Yesterday's crumpets with baking powder were a bit paler than golden on the sides, these were a violent yellow-brown on the sides and chestnut on the bottom. The inside was rubbish as well, more of a sponge cake interior with sparse sporadic holes. My partner said the mouthfeel and flavour were soapy. The first crumpets I ever made had a very strong metallic soapy taste so these were much less bad, but I could also see what he meant. They did taste slightly soapy.

I believe it was Mini Oven that said that baking soda (aka bicarb) contributed to the browning of baked goods, but I had no idea how big the effect was.

An idea came to mind hoping I could add less baking powder than I did yesterday; what if there is a way to combine the bubbles made by yeast with the bubbles made by baking powder? Usually in this 2 step process, you add only yeast in the beginning and rise, then you add more liquid (beating all the air out of the dough/batter in the process) and add the baking powder and rise for a short while (15~20 minutes or so). Most of the bubbles produced in this stage are from the baking powder. If my goal is to lower the amount of baking powder (because of the flavor) could I call upon the power of the yeast and the lesser amount of baking powder combined to form the bubbly batter?

What If I added both the yeast and the lower amount of baking powder at the beginning since the baking powder needs a pretty long time to react. I mean, for some reason in this recipe, the reaction of the baking powder is slowed down significantly. If I added them both at the beginning there is no reason to beat the air out of it later on. Some crumpet recipes do have a one step process, but I'm curious if it would allow me to use less baking powder and still get a frothy, sticky, bubbly batter.

On to the next experiment.

Reynard's picture
Reynard

A crumpet recipe from a really *ancient* edition of Good Housekeeping's Cookery Compendium

1/2 oz fresh yeast

1 pint milk & water mix (tepid)

1 lb flour

A pinch of bicarbonate of soda

1 teaspoon salt

unit conversions: 1 lb = 16 oz = 454g ; 1 pint = 20 fluid oz = 568 ml

Cream the yeast with a little of the tepid liquid, then add the rest of the liquid, mix well and pour into the flour. Beat very thoroughly for 5 mins. Cover the bowl and stand in a warm place for an hour. Dissolve the bicarbonate and salt in a little warm water and add it to the sponged mixture. Beat it up, and leave to rise for 3/4 of an hour. Have ready a greased girdle, moderately hot; hrease some crumpet rings and leave to heat on the girdle. Pour in enough batter to cover the bottom completely and allow to cook gently till the top is set. Remove the rings, turn the crumpets over and allow them to dry for a few minutes on the underside.

So... If this recipe is anything to go by, you've been adding far too much bicarb to your batter mix - no wonder it tastes odd. A pinch is the equivalent of the German messerspitze, so it's only a tiny amount. And with such a tiny amount, you can ditch the vinegar, it's probably completely unnecessary... As for the flour, it doesn't specify at all, so I would assume plain flour as opposed to bread. Milk - I'd use a 50-50 mix, milk & water, same as I'd use for pancakes.

HTH :-)

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

What stands out is the small amount of bicarb needed for a pound of flour, and the 45 minute bicarb raising time. Both of which will lead to a less soapy metallic flavour than the modern recipes which call for more bicarb and less bicarb raising time.You're not the only one surprised by this. What I still don't understand is that the writers of these modern crumpet recipes don't receive any comments in the vein of "your crumpet recipe tastes odd/metallic/soapy", instead most commenters just lay on the compliments.

And I didn't have enough experience with bicarb to be able to see from a recipe on its own if it was going to be any good or not.

I always read the comments of a recipe first (or the ratings) and that gives me some idea as to if I want to make it at all and if so, what I should change if any change is needed.

I was looking for some simple shortbread recipes for an afternoon tea and the comments to a recipe said "this is far too sweet, I tried again with half the amount and it was still on the sweet side, I would recommend using a third of the sugar" and most people agreed with that. The comment sections can be hugely valuable, so it only surprises me more if a much loved recipe turns out to be something that I think is horrible. The first thing I do is to find fault with myself (If I mismeasured or misread or had the wrong ingredients) but if that doesn't turn up any facts I start to google.

I've never heard of "creaming yeast", a google search throws up a few answers, most probably it means proofing the fresh yeast.

Your book speaks of a "girdle" instead of a griddle, so does "good things in england". I thought that was a bit funny, doing a double take if it was a typo but kept running into it.

Messerspitze is something I understand (I did have to take german in highschool) and directly translates to the dutch "mespuntje" (knifepoint), which is much less than the half teaspoon added to 250gr flour.

My "good things in england" pikelet recipe (which they claim is the same as crumpets, just without rings) has bicarb and cream of tartar. I'll include it and the flavour text here:

'A pikelet, I believe' writes Mr. Dupuis Brown in 1931, 'is only the Yorkshire term for "crumpet".

Pikelets or Girdle Cakes 

north country

Ingredients; Flour 1/2 pound, salt 1/2 teaspoonful, castor sugar 2 teaspoonfuls, cream of tartar 1 teaspoonful, carbonate of soda 1/2 teaspoonful, egg 1, milk 1/4 pt, water 1/4 pt.

Time; 8~10 minutes

Method;

1; Put all the dry ingredients into a basin and mix well. 2; Separate the yolk from the white of each egg and beat each separately. 3; Beat the yolk in with the milk and the water. 4; And use it to make the flour into a batter. 5; Fold in the well-whisked white of egg. 6; Rub the girdle over with a piece of mutton fat. 7; Make it hot. 8; Pour the batter on in tablespoonfuls. 9; When brown on one side turn with a knife and brown the other. 10; Butter and serve hot.

Thanks for your post, it made my day :)

 

Reynard's picture
Reynard

1952, that cook book. I love vintage and antique cookbooks :-D

I think when you want a traditional recipe, an old cookbook is probably a better bet. Time is money these days, I guess, and a recipe that takes less time is certainly more convenient, but invariably sacrifices on flavour - as seems to be the case here.

If you want a good shortbread recipe, I've got a couple that I've been using for years - one is a pretty basic version and the other is a slightly more fancy. I make cat-shaped shortbread biscuits, you see, to take along to cat shows to share with my friends. ;-) Shortbread isn't meant to be overly sweet; the simple recipe I use is 5 oz flour, 4 oz plain flour and 2 oz caster sugar. Also, I use salted butter rather than unsalted.

Creaming the yeast is something you do with fresh yeast. You crumble it into a small amount of liquid and mix it to a paste before adding the rest of the liquid. Fresh (i.e. cake) yeast doesn't need to be proofed like active dry.

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

there's a lot of obscure recipes in the "good things in england" book I wouldn't mind sharing.

It's got masses of recipes and when I went to look up "crumpets" in the index I couldn't find them because that's not how they call them.

It's not the only old cookbook that I've got, but it is the only english one. The rest of my old books are geared towards more dutch stuff (and surrounding regions) but since we have a busy colonial past there's also indonesian and chinese stuff in there. Just like you would find curries in old english books. I'm just looking at the index of one (1934, from a school where young women went to learn to be a housewife) and aside from the dutch stuff it's got english christmas pudding, english brandy-rum sauce, french wild duck with orange sauce (it's not a myth), Irish stew and some rather unknown dishes from Italy and spain. 

What strikes me is that I don't recognise half the dishes (and a handful of ingredients) in this dutch cookbook. A lot has changed since 1934. Reading these recipes I think "yes this is certainly dutch" but I've never heard of them, and when I ask older people they've only heard about them and not actually eaten them. We dutch seem to treat most of our culture as disposable and sadly we consider food culture to be disposable as well. Certain mindsets is what we pass on (not part of disposable culture) and they are "quantity over quality" and the whole calvinistic mindset (as in "thou shalt not enjoy thy food, that's sinful, food is just fuel"). I'm not saying there's no culture left but it's slim pickings. At least we still have bicycle culture and raw herring when it's in season.

You go to cat shows? You're quite the renaissance woman :)

Thank you for the shortbread recipe and the information on how to cream yeast, on the internet most people just said it meant to proof the yeast.

What kind of flour is the 5oz measure if the 4oz is plain flour? Self raising?

Reynard's picture
Reynard

My bad... It was late at night and I was trying not to fall asleep... Regarding the shortbread, the 5 oz quantity is plain flour, and the 4 oz quantity should be butter and the 2 oz is caster sugar. Feeling rather silly now.

My oldest cookbook is from 1898 - it's a German-Jewish Alsatian cookery book printed in gothic script. It challenges my German, but the Lebkuchen recipes in there are just amazing. There's also Christmas Pudding in there - but it's all Kosher LOL. I also use a 1930s Bavarian cookbook and a 1950s Polish one. Not to mention all my old UK stuff... I have one called "Recipes of All Nations" which dates from the 1920s... (OK, I confess, between myself and my mother, we have around 500 different cookery books...) I've even got "Cooking with Asterix"... ;-)

Yes, I go to cat shows - I have two non-pedigree girls that I show in the household pet section. :-)

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

I think that I don't have more than 200, maybe 250 if I counted my partner's books as well. Granted the majority of my books are "alternative cooking" or diet recipes. I must have around 20 raw food "cookbooks', rather embarrassing. When I wasn't into that anymore (because my health suffered from it) it just left me with a lot of books whose content pretty much boils down to expensive salads and things that don't look like salads but are pretty much salads nonetheless. I went through a whole vegetarian->vegan->rawfood->atkins->paleo rollercoaster in my early twenties to my late twenties. My bookshelves reflect that.

Now I'm primarily into an omnivorous diet (aka normal food). IMO it's the best place to be for me as long as I can apply moderation and have the right mindset.

As for vintage cookbooks, I don't have any earlier than 1930.

Cooking with Asterix sounds pretty funny. The only funny cookbook that I have that readily comes to mind is  "nanny ogg's cookbook/the joy of snacks", haven't made any of the recipes yet.

Lately the large majority of the recipes I use are from the internet, new cookbooks usually aren't worth the money (unless it's very rare/niche) I have been thinking lately. I just print out a recipe, put it in a clear folder and stick it into a binder and that works for me.

I like cats (and some dogs too), I don't have any myself at the moment. In my early twenties I had a cat but because of a change in education (I did a 4 year fashion school course) I placed her to live with someone in the family because the school said we weren't allowed any pets when we were working with fabrics because of the hairs. The cat seemed pretty happy with my aunt so I never actually asked her back (which would have been rude, I did give her to my aunt).

My partner has a cat, a siamese domestic mix, who's extremely vocal and affectionate. Whenever I see my friends cats they seem like big bulldozers with huge paws compared to my partner's cat who's so slightly built and weighs almost nothing. The contrast is startling.  I did develop a cat allergy over the last 4 years but it doesn't really bother me since I'm not around cats all the time. I can still handle petting my partner's cat, she would probably scream at me if I ignored her and didn't pet her. Being in his apartment when she's shedding is eye scratchingly annoying though.

Thanks for the recipe clarification.

Reynard's picture
Reynard

From charity shops, boot sales and the like, I rarely buy them new. Most new ones are what I call "coffee table cookbooks" i.e. good to look at but not so good to cook with... My collection is pretty eclectic, but among my favourites are books from the milk marketing board and the potato marketing board - they're packed with do-able everyday recipes that always come out really well.

I didn't realise there was a Discworld cookbook LOL... Though there is / was an online compendium for one of my favourite sci-fi book series (Miles Vorkosigan novels by Lois Mcmaster Bujold) called Ma Kosti's Cookbook

Ah yes, the siamese temperament. I am well familiar with that LOL. My best friend has a blue point siamese and my neighbour had a siamese cross; both loud, demanding and possessing of that sheer bloody-minded persistence typical of the breed.

Both my girls are rescues; Poppy, my tortoiseshell, was an unwanted kitten and Lexi, my blue & white, came from a cat hoarder. Love them both to bits :-)

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

from the marketing board is in my head. Very catchy.

The dutch had a milk brigade with their own mascot. My mother says that in the fifties the milk brigade advised that children should drink 2 glasses of milk per day, 3 if you were an exceptionally good child. There were some children suffering from malnutrition in those days and my mother had school friends who suffered from it. Her school friends would sometimes eat at her house and be surprised by the amounts of food they got since my maternal grandparents were well to do farmers who had enough to share.

You're right on the coffee table books, older books have more recipes for the page count they have and better recipes too. I have a book from the domestic science school from 1934 and it's a no nonsense source of good food. No difficult to find ingredients (unless they call for species that aren't grown anymore or organ meats that aren't sold anymore). Up until last year I was still buying new books, but I have found that it's not worth the money any more since I found that there's no guarantee that the recipe will be any good just because it's written by a celeb chef.

My partner calls his cats behaviour "regal" but stupid. When she stumbles she'll start washing herself in that position as if she meant to do that all along. She's extremely affectionate but also extremely selfish and what I mean by that is that she's not easy going at all.

I had a tortoiseshell, she was great and very easy going. As a kitten she would climb up my trousers if I wasn't quick enough to pick her up from the ground. She was from a shelter.

Reynard's picture
Reynard

 Are from the late 1970s and early 1980s... I guess they've got the best balance between modern / interesting food and sensible, easy recipes without the faddiness of trends and celebrity chefs.

Poppy is not an easy-going tortie. She's wilful, opinionated, paranoid and not above slapping me if she thinks I've stepped out of line. She is a very affectionate soul, but she has a reputation for putting the fear of God into some cat show judges...

Lexi is also wilful, opinionated and affectionate, but in a much more subtle way. She is also an inveterate hunter - astonishing for a cat that didn't know what a garden was before she came to live with me. This week I have had a pigeon and five mice, not to mention several sucked butterflies, two spiders and a dragonfly...

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

those faces are priceless though :) and those feet. I love those little jellybean toes.

Sometimes when my partner's cat is lying on her back expecting a belly rub she also has "limp front paws" and she'll just hang her front paws in the air doing nothing. Most often I can't fight the urge to do a handshake and she'll just stare at me in a "what in the world are you doing" fashion. But she doesn't do anything about it aside from leering at me. And then I'll rub her belly and she tries to make herself as long as possible, she can even manage to occupy 2 couch seats at the same time.

I would be really proud if a cat of mine brought home a pigeon, but I understand that it gets old (and gross) real soon when it's a regular feature of the day. Partners cat is an indoor cat (also not "fixed" if you know what I mean) and only gets to hunt the occasional spider or fly.

On a completely different note; I made a crumpet with 100% strong flour today and it seems that the crumb is much wetter compared to the mixed flour ones. Even with exactly the same amounts of flour and fluids there is a noticeable difference . I read somewhere that different flours can absorb different amounts of liquid but I didn't expect it to be noticeable to a newbie home baker, I thought it was more of a problem for people who bake a lot of bread. The crumpet I made tasted different as well but that could just be because of the wetness of the crumb. I don't know if you can "taste" the difference between different flours in the same category.

Reynard's picture
Reynard

Both the girls are neutered; Lexi was a "kitten machine" in her former home, but Poppy was done at three and a half months. The prey items does become old hat after a while. I don't mind it so much when they're brought in dead, but it's the ones brought in alive and released in the house that gets a bit much sometimes...

I hope you don't mind my asking, but does your partner breed from his cat? If not, has he ever thought about spaying her even if she is indoor only? It vastly diminishes the risk of mammary cancer and eliminates the risk of pyometra... And it's easier on the ear drums too; Siamese and Orientals can be really shouty when calling according to friends who work with the breed... ;-)

To answer your point about flour - yes, you can taste the difference between different brands of the same type of flour. I've noticed it, in particular with white bread flour and with dark rye. And yes, there can be differences between water absorption as well. The trick is to work by feel, and to hold back some (maybe 30 ml / two tablespoons) liquid initially, and add it in later if it's needed.

For rye flour, I much prefer Bacheldre Mill to the brand leader, Dove's. The supermarket own brand sits somewhere between the two. And when it comes to white bread flour, Leckford Estate or Duchy Organic gives a much nicer tasting bread to the big names e.g. Allinson's. Again, the supermarket own falls somewhere in the middle, and I use that when I'm catering pastries for charity functions. 

Flour can be a bit like wine (it'll taste different according to where it comes from) and a bit like blended malt whiskeys (the taste is dependent on the kind of blend of different wheat types).

Bottom line is find a flour you like and stick with it :-)

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

flapping panicked in your bathroom :) Finding any live outdoor creature in your house must be a "what the hell?" situation to come home to.


I don't mind you asking if he breeds from his cat. He doesn't breed from her, he's just an idiot sometimes and I have explained to him the exactly same things you have. I told him it would be beneficial to her health in the long term but he doesn't want to hear it. His reason for not spaying her is "I think it's mean to her to spay her, plus she doesn't get out so there's no real need to".


Whenever I go visit him at his apartment I always ask ahead if she's in heat at the moment. She is terribly loud, like an alarm clock that keeps going off. Not the gentle ones either, the really loud ones that go "beep beep beep" and you are scared awake thinking you might have a heart attack. Petting her only makes it worse and I don't want her butt in my face all the time, she slimes on my clothes too if I'm not carefull. And being in heat makes her cranky as well, she'll be in high spirits for the first 2 days but after that she's had enough and will sort of make a "growling meow" sound, especially when she's washing herself. Then comes the pleading and she'll meow in a sort of "make it stop" kind of way. Poor girl, it always tugs at my heartstrings when she's like that.


I imagine it must be like having a terrible itch you can't scratch, having all kinds of mood swings. But there is nothing I can do about it. It's his cat and we've had the conversation twice and he's made clear that he'll get cranky if I ever bring it up again.


I use a supermarket home brand plain all purpose white flour and a special high gluten white flour from the asian supermarket https://www.flickr.com/photos/asianingredients/5354271302
I've noticed that I prefer the crumpets flavour with more of that high gluten flour, the all purpose flour tastes more bland. What I found is that with the same amounts of flour (by weight) and liquid (by volume) the crumpets made with more high gluten flour, the crumb tends to be much wetter.


Good point on the "add liquid by feel" advice, I should have thought of it myself but I didn't.

Reynard's picture
Reynard

I really feel for you... *hugs*

You could always try and appeal to his wallet ;-) Getting his cat spayed (it's roughly the equivalent of 60 euros here in the UK) is always going to be a hell of a lot cheaper than emergency vet care if things go wrong...

Keeping his girl unneutered if he's not breeding from her is the meanest thing he can do to her. Not only is the constant cycle of calling irritating, it's not good for her, and not just from a health point of view - chances she's underweight if she's always calling. Besides, her temperament will be a lot less grumpy if she's not hormonal all the time. Admittedly it does vary from breed to breed - but the oriental breeds are among the worst for that sort of thing...

And she might be an indoor cat, but there's always the chance she'll get out and then have an oops litter. And you probably have to deal with all the neighbourhood entire males hanging around as well. Tom cat pee really stinks... Here's a link to some info provided by the rescue I volunteer for.

http://www.cats.org.uk/uploads/documents/cat-care-leaflets-2013/EG06_Neutering.pdf

Anyways, back to the less contentious topic of crumpets... If you want extra consistency, then weigh the liquid, don't measure by volume in a jug. It's more accurate. A few mls either way can make a big difference to the end result. Besides, 1g = 1ml when it comes to water. And don't add the liquid all in one go. :-)

If you haven't got one, then I'd recommend an electronic scale. I have an el-cheapo from Lidl, but it does the job. :-)

P.S. I had a blackbird flapping about in the hallway not that long ago. Managed to shepherd it back outside, but lordy, there were feathers *everywhere* :-p

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

for a spay. I remember it costing met 75 euro's 10 years ago here, and that was with a discount. Normal prices start at 90 euro's and up. But that's all besides the point.

My partner makes a hell of a lot of money and spends it just as easily. Appealing to his wallet would be futile I'm afraid. She doesn't weight much for a cat, be she is smaller and slighter build than others. I can't really tell if she's underweight, it's difficult to tell under all that fur. She does not seem boney when I pet her. I guess she goes into heat 4 times a year, maybe 5.

My partner lives high up in an apartment complex, there's very little chance she'll get out but the chance is still there. I don't know if he allows her access to the balcony is she's in heat. But at least we don't have male cats spraying our walls or making noise.

I'm pretty sure he'll stand by his viewpoint on spaying her, but I could always carefully say that it makes her grumpy and hormonal. Knowing him he'll probably say that it's not as bad as I paint it as.

Thanks for the leaflet, I had no idea you could spay them before 6 months.

Thanks, I will start weighing the liquid from now on as well to see if it sheds light on any inaccurate measuring on my part. I have a cheap digital scale, maybe not as cheap as the ones from lidl. But my mom has one from them and our scales are comparable quality wise.

Reynard's picture
Reynard

Vet fees for routine things like neutering does vary - some vets are more expensive than others. I like to think that my vet is quite reasonable. But whatever the cost, I think it's a very small price to pay for the wellbeing of the cat.

Poppy, my tortie, was spayed at three and a half months. Didn't bother her in the slightest, and she was up and bouncing around straight away. Lexi, though, was a kitten machine before she was neutered, and now she's absolutely terrified of entire cats...

You could try that approach. Ask him how he would feel if all he wants (all the time) is to find a mate, but that he can't have one. Ever. And that he would have to live with that permanent frustration. That's pretty well much what his cat is going through. Volunteering for a rescue, I get to see the various consequences of people not neutering their cats, and it's absolutely heartbreaking sometimes...

Lidl's scale does me for all my breadmaking :-) Let us know how you get on weighing your liquids - and if it makes any difference.

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

even if it is 90~100 euro's. 

She did fall of the balcony once and broke her leg, I think my bf payed around 800 euro's in vet bills. He said "if you have a pet you should be responsible and pay for any medical treatment they may need, whether it's cheap deworming treatment or expensive emergency care".

But when it comes to spaying he seems to take a completely different stance, his reasoning being "it is mean and unnecessarily cruel to spay her if she doesn't really need it". Which does seem like an unfounded non rational thing, definitely more of a decision that is born out of emotion only. I'll try my luck with the whole topic next time I see him. 

My local shelter (where I got my cat way back when) offers kittens that have been dewormed, chipped and vaccinated. If they still need vaccines you can get those for free. They also offer a discount on spaying/neutering. Like a "instead of 100 euro, pay 75 instead" kind of deal. And some people still don't neuter them, mainly stupid or uneducated people. It makes me angry.

I will have to return the hotplate to my mother soon, so I'm making a big batch of crumpets tonight so I can freeze them. They freeze wonderfully. I'll try to make decent ones without the rings tonight, it's less hassle that way.

I haven't tried the weighing the liquid part yet, but definitely will do so in the future.

I've been kind of swamped for time lately, but when I can I'll post the final recipe on this site. Basically it's a two step dough/batter with a moderate amount of yeast, some milk, water, some vinegar, ap flour, strong flour, salt, and a small amount of baking powder. The trickiest thing is to get the temperature in which you rise this batter/dough right. It also takes a fair amount of time, 1 hour and 45 minutes for the first rise and 45 minutes for the second rise.

I've also found that if you want them to look more like the store bought ones you should not flip them on the hotplate/pan but (when the top is set) put them in the oven with the grill function on (meaning only heat from above, door open) until they brown a bit all over the top. I haven't decided on a temperature or time yet, I just went with the medium grill heat (the oven does not express it in degrees) and kept an eye on the colour. The tops of home made crumpets are rarely completely flat and level so if you flip them you're stuck with pale spots and darker spots. I'm still curious how they make them in the factory though.

 

Reynard's picture
Reynard

That I volunteer for does a "neuter your cat for a fiver" campaign for people on limited income, It's cut down on the number of unwanted kittens, but there are always going to be the ones who just won't do it for whatever reason... Every cat or kitten that we rehome is vaccinated, blood tested, wormed, de-flead and microchipped, and every cat or kitten over the age of 4 months is also neutered.

My neighbour (who is a retired farmer) and I do trap-neuter-release for the local feral population. He feeds the ferals who come into his garden and gets them confident to the point where I can trap them and get them neutered. Most of these cats are unhomeable and are quite happy living around his sheds and garden, but we did have one who turned into a right soppy boy after neutering and he's now enjoying a lovely new home, living in the lap of feline luxury.

Back to the crumpets, I suspect that the factory ones are made on a conveyor belt and go through an oven with top and bottom heating elements which probably cooks them in about 30 seconds or something of that ilk...

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

like your volunteer job does a better job than my local shelter. It's like they don't even give a damn, the people who work there are like apathetic zombies. They're a bit like annoyed cashiers in that regard, a bit too rough with the animals and a bit too bitter at the people that come in. It's not like I think that people owe me a smile or something but it wouldn't hurt them to be nice (or a least neutral) to the people who come to adopt animals. 

Maybe it's the job that kills people mentally. There don't seem to be any systems in place for dealing with stray cats or dogs.

I can get angry at people who don't neuter their pets all I like, with the "75 euro instead of 100" discount. But to be honest 75 euro is still a lot of money for someone who is living at 75% of minimum wage (that's welfare here). I think you shouldn't get a pet if that sounds too much but other people think differently.

I loved it when the chipping system caught on, that saved a lot of time. When I was younger I did some cleaning at the shelter, also my best friends dad owns a pet store and she used to live above it. I used to buy some of my cat supplies there. When we were little we used to play hide and seek in the store at night if there was a birthday party. Nothing really interesting to you, I'm just nostalgic all of the sudden.

We don't see a lot of feral cats and when I hear some fighting at night (after the "is it a baby crying or is it those cats again" confusion) I always automatically assume it's someone's cat out there.

I think you're right about the conveyor belt theory. It's time I posted that recipe.

Reynard's picture
Reynard

Varies from branch to branch. A lot depends on the co-ordinator and the volunteers - if you've got good people, then you've got a well-run branch. Going on what I've heard, ours is one of the better ones :-D Me, well I do the website and the lost-and-found register, plus I photograph the cats and kittens that are up for homing. I've also done some emergency fostering, and I help with fundraising - that usually means baking cakes and breads for our events.

There's no harm in being Nostalgic ;-) Have to confess, I love puttering around in pet shops. I mean it's not like the girls really need the toys, or a new harness or some of the more fancy food, but I do love to spoil them. The best places though are the stands at cat shows, where you can get just about anything for your cat that you can think of - and some things that you can't think of LOL! I'm at a big show in a fortnight, so I'm fully expecting my wallet to get a pounding... :-p

A full-on cat fight is a noisy, furious thing with much yowling and growling. My two girls can't stand my neighbour's cat, and the poor boy gets a pounding if he dares come into my garden to roll in the catnip patch. He's been duffed up a few times, but he never seems to learn...

I'm not a big eater of crumpets, but I love them with butter and marmite or with chocolate spread if I'm in the mood. Will be interesting to see how your recipe compares with the ones in the books I have. And next time I have the crumpet horrors, I might have a go. :-)

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

In the link http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/43814/final-crumpet-recipe 

Thanks to everybody. I did not expect such a great amount of comments and advice but it sure helped a lot.

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

How about this one: http://tinyurl.com/od7me6j

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

And I feel like such a culture barbarian right now.

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

He's been described as one of the best kept secrets of English literature, so it's not surprising that you haven't heard of him. You may have heard of a film based on the books, however: Master and Commander with Russell Crowe.

As the recipes reproduce dishes from the early eighteen hundreds I thought you might find it interesting.

Reynard's picture
Reynard

But I'm more of a Horatio Hornblower person ;-)

I'm sure I've seen some of those recipes in Mrs Beeton.

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

Hornblower buckles far too many swashes for my taste, more novel than historical; O'Brian's the other way around. His books are packed with social history and more besides, which is more to my taste.

Floydm's picture
Floydm

And terrible jokes like: 

Two weevils crept from the crumbs. 'You see those weevils, Stephen?' said Jack solemnly.

'I do.'

'Which would you choose?'

'There is not a scrap of difference. Arcades ambo. They are the same species of curculio, and there is nothing to choose between them.'

'But suppose you had to choose?'

'Then I should choose the right-hand weevil; it has a perceptible advantage in both length and breadth.'

'There I have you,' cried Jack. 'You are bit - you are completely dished. Don't you know that in the Navy you must always choose the lesser of two weevils?”

I'm a fan of both the Hornblower and Aubrey/Maturin series but they are indeed very different. Hornblower is pure action; Aubrey/Maturin is mostly dialog and the interplay of a man of action and a man of thought.

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

Ah, the clenches. Yes, indeed. Dog watch, cur-tailed, etc. Abysmal but utterly fitting. As you say, a man of action, not thought.

"He who would pun would pick a pocket"

My older brother was a Hornblower fan when I was a kid but I didn't read any until I ran out of Aubrey/Maturin. I decided to read the canon again instead. And then again... Superb writing.

Reynard's picture
Reynard

I think I'll have to revisit both lots of books. It's been a fair old while...

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

to hear you have mrs Beeton's book. I hear it referred to in historical food programs. Some of them say it's not such a good book and that the presentation is far more impressive than the taste of the recipes themselves.

What do you think?

Reynard's picture
Reynard

But not to use. It's just an interesting piece of social history.

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

a long time ago. I don't remember what it was about. I remember the weevil scene though because puns stick in my head.

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

They're flatter, floppy, have no holes in the top and have a different, though not completely dissimilar, texture to crumpets. Like this: http://theenglishkitchen.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/pikelets.html

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

say that pikelets are freeform crumpets. Crumpets made without rings. I've seen that explanation used so much that I believed it. When I did one or two crumpets without rings I still got the bubbles on top so perhaps there is something different about the pikelet batter if they're not supposed to have holes. Marks and spencers pikelets have holes in them on top though.  But then again other homemade pikelets show pictures without holes.

A bit confusing to be honest. I'll just regard it as one of those things people have different opinions on.

As I'm not from the UK I don't really have an opinion on the matter, what matters to me is if they taste good.

Reynard's picture
Reynard

Do have holes in them :-)

I already gave you the recipe from The Best of Sainsbury's Baking, but I have another recipe in Home Baking by Elizabeth Pomeroy, which omits the bicarb entirely, but adds butter plus a whole egg as opposed to merely an egg white. I think that if you are looking for something that tastes more like a pancake, Elizabeth Pomeroy's recipe might be up your street. Let me know.

The book says of pikelets: These are similar to crumpets and in different parts of the country are called variously Welsh crumpets, griddle cakes and yeast pancakes. They are made with a yeast batter and cooked on a griddle, but without the rings.

Crumpets and pikelets are similar things but they aren't the same. It's a bit like victoria sponge and genoa sponge - they're both sponges, but not the same kind of sponge ;-)

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

I think I'll try the recipe you already gave me in the christmas holiday. I'm sure they'll go down a treat.

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

Ah, well. I suppose most people can't be wrong. ;-)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

or the ring used for the mould.  not a griddle.  

PlainPopcorn's picture
PlainPopcorn

In Reynard's recipe it says to grease and heat both girdle and rings.

But in absence of that you would have had a point.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

girdle on a girdle   Heck, why are they called crumpets and not girdlies?   Is there a Scottish name for crumpets?

 

I cannot see the picture.