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Fresh starter is not growing after refrigerating for two days

jangozo's picture
jangozo

Fresh starter is not growing after refrigerating for two days

Hi,

Last weekend I had to put my 5 days old starter in the fridge for two days because I was away. After a bit of reading, I did the following:

Friday evening - feeding 1:2:2 (plain flour) to give it enough food for the weekend

Friday night - after rising has begun I put it in the fridge (top shelf)

Sunday night - I noticed there was very little rise while it was in the fridge (I guess that's normal since it's cold in there)

Monday morning - Feeding with 1:2:2 of rye to give it good quality food and help it recover.

Monday evening - See picture above. It now has very thick consistency due to the lack of rise from the past two feeds.

I'm thinking of feeding it 1:1:1 tomorrow morning to help hydrate it and speed up the rise. However, I'm losing confidence in my abilities to manage this one on my own. It looks like I made a few mistakes in a row to get to this stage and I need some help from peeps on this forum or I might finish my starter off for good.

Thanks!

EODBaker's picture
EODBaker

Hi,

I'm relatively new at this sourdough thing myself. Assuming there was a point when your starter did display significant activity, the best bit of advice I read on this forum is to simply wait and give the yeast time to activate. Maybe just give the contents a stir and give it a chance to multiply.

Good luck!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

until it shows some rise.  make sure it is thick enough to show rise with 70-80% hydration and keep it at 80 F.  It should recover soon enough.

Starters are more easily made with whole grains and these don't  stabilize until about day 7. White flour ones take longer but just give some time..

jangozo's picture
jangozo

I think the line just 2 cm above the current level of the starter shows that there was already a tiny rise. Should I wait for another?

doughooker's picture
doughooker

What does this starter smell like?

jangozo's picture
jangozo

It smells fermented almost like alcohol.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

The alcohol smell tells us it's active. It might be ready to bake.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

and fallen judging by the residue on the glass.

You refrigerated a very young starter which probably needed more TLC and regular feedings.

Thicken it up and wait for activity. Once it shows signs of life then go back to your schedule.

Once your starter is viable and strong then it can live in the fridge. I just think it needs a bit more time.

But it smells good so on the right track.

 

jangozo's picture
jangozo

It has now been more than 24 hours since last feeding. I just stirred it last night. How much more time should I give it or what should I look for before feeding?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

taking off 20g and feeding that 25g flour + 25g water for the recipe below? Wait for that to bubble up and proceed with the recipe. As a test bread. you will notice that this "pre-ferment" adds up to 70g but after fermenting it tends to lose, on average, 10g so we allow for that.

If it works then good sign. In the meantime...

Carry on as normal. With the remainder get back to your feeding schedule. Give it another feed now and don't do anything till you see activity. I see bubbles and there are signs it did rise.

Let us now how this trial bread goes.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

It's plenty active, Abe. It's exhausted its food supply and is making ethanol.

You can feed it and feed it ad infinitum. Eventually you want to bake with it.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Get baking :)

It's still young though so more TLC before taking up residence in the fridge. But agreed... Time to bake.

Perhaps a small trial dough to see how it does? Say a straight forward 60% hydration bread flour dough?

 

200g bread flour

108g water

4g salt

60g starter

 

1. In your bowl add 108g warm water

2. Add 60g starter and stir till fully dispersed and turns milky white

3. In another bowl mix the 4g salt into 200g bread flour

4. Add the flour/salt mix to the starter/water

5. Fully incorporate, form dough and knead for 10 minutes

6. Cover and bulk ferment for 3 hours or until doubled

7. Turn dough out onto floured bench and form boule

8. Place on prepared baking tray and final proof till ready - till about 85-90% risen (just under doubled)

9. Score and bake in pre-heated oven

 

What do you think?

jangozo's picture
jangozo

It's a 1 week old starter, shouldn't it be fed for another week or two?

I read here that the starter needs more time to mature before using:

"For the next week or two they’ll be busy getting ready for real life (so this is starter college, basically), They will spend the next while being fed and allowed to mature, making sure the yeast and LAB are well established. They’ll be kept out on the counter and fed twice daily to really get the cycle going."

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

But it is very young. Your starter will continue to mature and improve for sometime yet. Even a month to 3 months you'll notice changes.

You are right but I thought a little trial run can't do any harm. Just to see how it reacts. Can it leaven a dough? An experiment.

But definitely keep up your maintenance schedule like we discussed. It is not ready to take up residence in the fridge with feedings only when it runs low. Feed, wait for signs of activity then feed again. Just carry on as normal.

With regard to the experiment it's up to you. Will only make a very small loaf. More like a large bun. And i'll tell you that young more mature starters make tastier breads too. Up to you.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

"With regard to the experiment it's up to you. Will only make a very small loaf. More like a large bun. And i'll tell you that more mature starters make tastier breads too. Up to you".

doughooker's picture
doughooker

All of the new flour and water you add will need to be colonized afresh. So you can keep on feeding, waiting for it to be colonized, pouring it down the drain, etc. for as long as you want. It's your flour, your water and your money.

Take a glass of water and add an Alka Seltzer tablet. When the tablet has dissolved, pour half down the drain, then add 1/2 tablet of Alka Seltzer and 1/2 glass of water.

Repeat this cycle for 30 days. What have you accomplished? You've basically chased your tail for 30 days.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Abe, you've only been baking a short time. With all due respect I don't consider your advice well founded.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that his starter will continue to ripen in the fridge and he'll have the layer of ethanol (hooch) to prove it. In the fridge it will ripen more slowly than if he leaves it at room temperature, but it will continue to ripen until it runs out of food (which it already has if he's smelling alcohol).

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

So think I know what i'm doing. I do believe at this young stage it will benefit from more TLC with regular feedings before taking up residence in the fridge. I'm well aware it continues to ripen in the fridge. That's how I've been keeping mine for a few years.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

You posted this less than a year and a half ago, on February 28, 2014:

Starting my own sourdough?How do I cultivate my own sourdough starter?How do I keep it?How do I use it in my breadmaking?

 and finally..... How do I use it in a breadmaker?

Sorry for so many questions. I bake often with dried yeast but have never done anything like this before. I'm a complete novice when it comes to sourdough so please educate me.

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Be nice guys, please?  Everyone is entitled to share their advice based on their own experiences.  

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

This guy trolls TFL a lot and follows me around insulting me.

Just been onto his page to search for some wonderful professional sourdoughs but it seems to be void of any bread whatsoever.

If you wish for any further advice then you can always privately email me. I have made my own starter with which I successfully bake with and have helped numerous other people on TFL do the same. I'm always here if you need advice.

Best of luck.

P.s. better not tell mixinator about who advised you on how to make a starter which he thinks is a success ;)

jangozo's picture
jangozo

mixinator's tone was offensive/aggressive from the start so this conflict was imminent. However I'm glad the thread where I wanted to get actual help didn't turn into a d*ck measuring contest.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

What I have learned is this... There are no absolutes when it comes to sourdough. You'll need to take advice from everyone and formulate the jangozo way.

Yes, at the beginning you'll follow advice as if it were a rule which is the correct thing to do. But eventually you'll know what works for you!

No one keeps their starter exactly the same way. No-one.

So by all means give your starter a try and carry on maintenance till you know it is ready and viable.

My own personal way of keeping my starter and using it has changed over time. And i'm ALWAYS learning new ways.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the alcohol ferment aromas of the starter.   If it's strong (and these aromas build after a rise...) then use it or feed it.  You want your fermenting sourdough starter to peak if it is thick enough and then feed anytime after that.  You can play around with the feeding amounts.  If you introduce a new flour go about it gradually (mixing with regular feed flour)  over several feeds until it peaks (each time)  always watching the activity.   Some flours will speed activity and others may slow it down as the "bugs" get used to eating in a new way.  Just think, in less than a year you will also be helping newbies!  

If you are ever gone for a few days chilling it slows it down (like you did) and that is comparable to how long the starter was fermenting before it got chilled.  Naturally the more it is fermented, the shorter one can chill it.  You were sailing away just fine.  Take the starter out of the fridge and observe how long it had been fermenting.  Aromas are weak on cold starters so it is better to taste it and to stir and note bubbles.  Letting it sit and warm up will also give you a better feel for how long the starter should be allowed to ferment before using or feeding it.  If it tastes bland and like fresh mixed flour and water, better to wait until it changes to more nutty, cheesy, perhaps beer like and full of bubbles.   You can always test it by taking a spoon full, double it with water and stir in a spoon of flour to see if it foams up in a few hours or stays flat.  

If it stays flat, and tastes bland, wait it out.  Let it ferment longer.  I should add that I'm not sure what kind of starter you have, if it is a rye starter, it breaks down rather quickly and chilling stiffens it and throws off any rising tests (very unlike wheat),  then you have to go by taste (looking for sour) and warmed up aroma and what it looks like as you stir it.  

 

jangozo's picture
jangozo

Thank you for the advice. I'll feed it with a mixture of rye and plain flour once I get back from work. To answer your question, I was using rye and pineapple juice to get it started. I switched to plain flour last Friday just a few hours before it went in the fridge. Perhaps it was still adjusting to the new food as you say.

What I would like to know is what ratio to feed it with. It is quite thick and almost stringy at the moment. I think another 1:2:2 will make it even thicker.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

" I think another 1:2:2 will make it even thicker. "

Yes, it will but only slightly.  As sourdough ferments it feels thinner and more hydrated.  Bye the way... how are you measuring 1:2:2 ?    (s:w:f) or (starter:water:flour)    one weight starter / to two equal weights each water and flour

With AP it would expect the starter culture to be rather runny.  I like messy toothpaste consistency myself.  Sometimes thicker, more like dough.  A lot depends on the temperature and what's going to happen with the starter.  If your room temps are over 26°C you might want a thicker starter or you'll be watching/feeding it several times a day if left on the counter.  In a cooler environment, you might prefer a runny starter.   It ferments faster and you tend to use more of it replacing/shifting  some of the water in the recipe with starter.  

If you are keeping notes and feeding the same with every feeding (soon after or when activity peaks) you may notice the starter peaking sooner and higher each time.  If not, influences like temperature and water quality may be playing with your results.  Starters will also tend to ferment more during day temps and slow more as temperatures sink at night.  

With some finagling, you can feed and get the starter to peak at your schedule when you are ready and around to feed it.  Once the starter is predictable in it's behaviour, give it a little bit more flour or water or both (or with less starter) to put it onto a 12 hour schedule,  then when it is consistently preforming for you, double the flour amount and feed every 24 hours.  Or feed it, let it rise about 1/3 in it's container and then pop it into the fridge for a week or two.  

If you use it in the first 4 days, let it warm up and ferment more before using it to ensure you have a healthy population of yeast.   If it stands several weeks, give it another feeding and let it peak before using in a recipe.  (some folks will feed it twice building from just a tiny spoonful.)  

Have you baked any bread yet?  :)

jangozo's picture
jangozo

Yes, I'm feeding it with 1:2:2 (starter:water:flour). I switched the AP flour with a better one and noticed much better results. It is now tripling 12 hours after feeding. I think the rises are becoming predictable now. Thanks for the advice for storing it in the fridge. I won't be able to feed it for a few days starting next Friday. Should I put it in the fridge again?

I have baked breads before and yesterday I made my first sourdough using this recipe. (see picture)

http://www.thekitchn.com/recipe-beginner-sourdough-sandwich-loaf-recipes-from-the-kitchn-48192

 

I would use the recipes here but I still haven't figured out a way to work them into my work schedule. One day, hopefully sooner, I'd like to make this one :) 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com//node/8454/pain-de-campagne

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

And tripling without fail then come Friday you should think about it taking up residence in the fridge. No need to keep big amounts when the time comes. Whole rye stores well for a long time but other flours can follow a similar schedule.

I keep about 90-150g of starter in my fridge. When I wish to bake I'll take a little off to build with. When the starter in the fridge runs low (no less than 1 tablespoon) then I'll take it out, top it up, allow it to bubble up by 2/3rds then return it to the fridge. No discard and easy to manage. Plus, you aren't slave to your starter.

Bread looks good! Starter works!!!

FrugalBaker's picture
FrugalBaker

I am too, a newbie to baking sourdough. I have a 7 month old rye starter and am slowly 'evolving' it into a white starter. Sometimes, when I noticed that my starter is acting up a bit, I would put in a small amount of rye again. At times, hooch formed and I just stir it in and add more flour. Just like what Abe said,  no one keeps their starters exactly the same way, no one! 

I baked my first loaf of sourdough with a 5 day old starter, albeit with a very low hydration recipe but it did not give me any problem at all. In fact, it was reliable as all my preferments passed the float test. If you do a search on Google, lots of recipes do call for an active starter but rarely mentioned a matured starter. I mean, who could resist to bake when one knows he/she has successfully cultivated some wild yeast? 

Baking bread has thought me to be humble and open-minded. And with these virtues, I have learned a great deal from some really good souls on TFL like Abe, Mini, David, Ian, Sonia,dabrownman, Kathy....the list goes on. I would not be baking like this if it wasn't for those helpful people to be honest. And I am still learning something new, everytime I bake : ) 

 

Happy Baking,

Sandy