The Fresh Loaf

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Doughy center

Alchemist42's picture
Alchemist42

Doughy center

Hello all.  I am very much hoping you good folks can assist me in sussing out my recent loaf troubles.

I've searched the site for gummy and doughy issues and clearly it has not helped.  So it appears time for some person to person interaction.

Here is what is going on.  I've am no stranger to baking.  Been doing it 25+years.  The last couple years have been very successful with high hydration doughs ala Tartine.  I successfully, albeit not perfectly, made it through all of Chad's recipes.  No real issue except the basic learning curve of high hydration shaping.

I have what I believe is a healthy 100% whole wheat culture started over 18 months  ago.  I say believe as it's the one rock I have not overturned trying to diagnose my current issue.  In the time since I started it I've kept it fed and it seems fine based on activity and aroma.  I've baked little in the last year with it.  Since I started again about 2 months ago, I have one recurring issue regardless of recipe.  The inside of my loaves are gummy/doughy.  Regardless of flour or recipe.

As everyone seems to say, my belief is I've changed nothing.  But of course something has changed.  Details.  Let's go with yesterday's loaf.

50% whole wheat loaf.  Numbers in baker's percent.  Total flour was 500g

50 Camas Valley whole wheat flour (local mill) hard winter wheat

50 AP flour

75 water

1.3 salt

20 levain (1T starter to 50g WW/50gAP 100g water, overnight proof)

2 hour autolyse of flour and water (minus 25g)

Mix in remaining water and salt.  Fold, stretch, turn every half hour for 2 hours.  Bulk rest 3 hours.  Pulled away nicely from bowl and had plenty of tension post fold.  Pre-shape and bench rest 20 minutes.  Final shaping and rise for 1 hour in floured bowl, seam side up.

Oven pre-heat to 500 F.  Cast iron skillet and lid heated 10 minutes.  Load loaded and slashed.

20 minutes with lid at 500 F

40 minutes without lid at 450F

No internal temp taken...but for goodness sakes, after an hour at that temp...

The interior:

 

I am happy enough with the look but the texture is doughy still.  You can see the shine and gloss on some of the surfaces.

A run down of things I've checked.  I'm sure I've missed some.

Oven temperature accurate

Bake time 40-60 minutes

Tried with previously successful flours and recipes.

Starter floats well.

Tried retarded over night bulk rises

Tried overnight autolyse

Any and all questions and suggestions welcome.  Let me know what details I can fill in.

 I'm tossing around ideas about enzyme issues, trying a lower temperature and starting a new culture. 

Thanks in advance.

Ford's picture
Ford

"No internal temp taken...but for goodness sakes, after an hour at that temp..."

Yes, I know, but do it anyway!  It should be 195 to 200°F (91 to 93°C).  After you take to loaf out of the oven, do you let it cool for 12 hours plus?  The bread builds structure as it cools!

Ford

 

Alchemist42's picture
Alchemist42

Here here.  It's on my list.  To get an instant read thermometer that is and verify.

Not to argue, but discuss, I HAVE verified the oven temperature and it has worked in the past (same oven, same recipe) so I can't wrap my head around HOW it could not be up to temp in an hour if it clearly was previously.  Can you?

That said, I'm seeing quite a few temps 205-208 F.  Comments there?

And yes to waiting.  That was cut this morning after cooling completely overnight.

Also, I am seeing photos of other breads that people are calling 'moist' that have that same gloss, yet they don't appear to see any issue.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/41201/red-fife-stout-sourdough

Am I maybe miscalling it doughy?  Regardless, I don't like it and want it more dry and 'tender'?

 

 

Alchemist42's picture
Alchemist42

....self doubt creeps in....

A glossy interior: When you cut into a loaf and it looks super-glistening, super wet and shiny, some people will think it’s underbaked—people have said this about my bread. But if you press it, it will be moist or wet to the touch, but it bounces back because the starch is hydrated and gelatinized. It’s fully cooked, it’s just wetter than people are used to.

From:

http://www.foodandwine.com/articles/lessons-from-chad-robertson

Wondering now if I am trying to 'fix' a problem that does not really exist except in my own head and dislike of the result (my daughter LOVES it).  The is sounding a whole lot like what I am trying to describe.

....scratching my head....

Arjon's picture
Arjon

seems to be almost a kilo. I make smaller loaves, more like 600 gm, and usually bake them for 45 minutes at 450 or 475. So I don't know, but I do wonder if an hour might be a bit short, especially since it seems you may not be fully preheating your skillet. If it's only in the oven for 10 minutes before the dough is loaded in, I suspect it's still heating up. 

hreik's picture
hreik

happened to me and it was b/c I didn't preheat the baking stone long enough.  Your Cast Iron skillet should be smoking hot.... My stone should've been smoking hot and I'd preheated for 20 minutes.  Next time I"m doing a full hour preheat which several of the gurus (one esp) on this forum advise... and she's a sourdough genius.

hester

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

if you reduce the hydration by 5%?  

or     If you raise the salt to 1.6%

Alchemist42's picture
Alchemist42

Thanks for the input.

Well I WAS about to correct the weight of my dough...but yeah, it is that heavy with the water.  Good catch.  I should have caught that.  My aim was 600 grams too.  But looking back at my notes, the multitude of loaves via Tartine that worked were also 900 g and were fine.

The non-preheat on the skillet was 100% on purpose.  I usually pre-heat it with the over for a full hour.  Basically it had no effect.   Or at least no change in the glossy interior.

And i've know it's standard to pre-heat, but have read (can't find the source right now) that going into a cold skillet works as well.  I'm finding I don't particularly like the seared flavor on the bottom of the bread.  This was a minor test to see if it helped the flavor, which it did.  The 10 minutes was a calculated compromise to hot but not searing.

All the loaves that had this appearance/texture, except this one, went into 500 F skillets.  As did the ones that worked a year ago.

One thing I am now formulating (isn't it interesting how we remember things) is turning DOWN the temperature to 375 F for the first 20 minutes and then raising it to finish.  There IS a change from last year to this.  The thermostat went out in my oven and it was replaced.  Meaning, although I know it is currently spot on, I don't know it was spot on a year ago.  It very well could have been lower.  I feel pretty  certain it was not higher.  Hence the thought to turn it down.  I wondering if the 475-500 temp is sealing the loaf too fast, preventing moisture escape and giving that gelatinization that Chad mentions.

 

 

Alchemist42's picture
Alchemist42

if you reduce the hydration by 5%?  

or     If you raise the salt to 1.6%

I could certainly try reducing by 5%. 

And I was up too early for basic maths.  It was 13 g to 500 g so was 2.6%....but still where it has been since I determined 2% was a little low for my tastes.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

It is the temp!   The old saying...  if the outside is brown and the inside not done, turn down the temp.  :)

Your temps are too high for me.  I go 240°C max or 460°F  and turn down after initial spring.

Alchemist42's picture
Alchemist42

Never heard the saying, but that's ok.

What do you turn down to?  And you personally, how long for that initial spring?  10?  20?  Mine's covered so I can't go with the visual clue.

And do you concur it is actually 'not done' vs just chad glossy?  Or is that moot language, that lower temps will remove the glossy regardless of the label?

Alchemist42's picture
Alchemist42

Yet more reading and searching.

'Glossy' from what I am reading and seeing seems to be a desirable trait to some

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/30777/oakland-sourdough-success

Am I trying to fix something that isn't broken and just mis-naming something I don't like?  That sure looks like what I have.  Is temperature the defining criteria?  <200 doughy >200 glossy?  Or something similar?

Mini Oven, I even saw you comment some years ago about more sour loaves having a glossy interior and wondering about a correlation.

Thanks for the place to bounce ideas.

 

Arjon's picture
Arjon

I think the more important point isn't whether you're trying to fix something that isn't broken, but rather how to get the loaf to be the way you like it, which seems to be with a less moist and/or less gelatinous crumb.

The obvious way to see if this is affected by internal temperature would seem to be by baking loaves to different temperatures. Unfortunately, I can't tell you what if anything to expect since I've never tried this, and also can't recall seeing anyone else's report on such testing. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

doughy to me.  Doughy would imply not properly cooked, something still in a liquid or semi liquid form and I don't see that in your slices oh wait, those are John's slices.  I don't see unbaked dough in your crumb shot either.  Does it improve if you nuk your slice for 10 -20 sec. in the micro and let it cool?  Microwaves should head straight for the wet parts.

Drop the temp.  I tend to drop it 20 to 30°C after the initial spring.  If you'e never watched a loaf rise, then put another bread pan in the oven, pour 2 cups of water in it and heat it up on the middle shelf (with DO) in the oven.  When the water boils and the dough is ready to load, move the steam pan to bottom of the oven, left or right and park the loaf without the lid on the self above but not directly over the steam pan.  Close the door and pull up a chair, pad and pen.  If you have a camera, phone or whatever, take a picture when it first goes in, then repeat every 5 minutes from the same angle.  Also watch the steam pan.  Don't open the oven even when you don't see steam, trust me, it is there.  

It's good when the steam pan dries up just before the main oven spring is finished somewhere between 10 and 20 minutes into the bake.   If not, remove the steam pan and move the bread into the middle of the rack.  You can continue to watch it, it will rise a little bit more but once it starts browning, most of the spring is over.  Turn down the heat so the bread doesn't brown too much before the loaf is baked through.  You can always throw a piece of foil over the top to slow browning.  

If you tap on your loaf it should sound hollow when done anywhere on the outside of the loaf.  Most tap the bottom.  Also if you throw a dish towel over the loaf and give a light full handed squeeze, you can tell if the loafs feels too heavy & squishy inside.  Like the loaf wants to break and fall out of your hands. (that's the best way I can describe it.)  Put it back into the oven on the rack for at least another 10 minutes and more depending on the feel of that loaf.  It will need the first 5 minutes to return to temperature then add on time.  Usually around 200°C for an already nicely browned loaf, lower if loaf is dark.  160° C if there's a lot of chocolate and sweet burnables inside.  

I threw a loaf together this afternoon and I'm retarding it.  It's rye sourdough 150g, AP 200g, Spelt 200g, Einkorn 50g and a cup of boiled crumbled chest nuts.  Buttermilk and milk for liquids 300g.  A medium feel to the dough.  Did a fold on it and shaped it.  Banneton, bag, and into the fridge.  Let's hope my AP doesn't fall to pieces!  Plan to bake in the morning at about 230°C.   

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

230°C is very hot in my oven.  Dough weight 1091g  going into the oven, out --->  962g.  

After 19 min at 230°C removed steam pan and turned down the oven but it took a while to get to 200°C.  Crust was already browning 15 min into the bake.  At 45 min, internal temp was under (200°F) 93°C (ok for a rye but this is a wheat) so back onto hot oven rack.  Crust already very brown so 10 more minutes turned down to 180°C.  It worked.  Inside temp 99°C (210°F.)  No fan, upper and lower heat.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

usually get worse with time, the bread spoils faster and doughy crumb never seems to dry out if left open to the air.  

Alchemist42's picture
Alchemist42

Glossy, not doughy it is.  I don't have a microwave, so no test there.  But it holds up stunning.  The just finished the loaf before this this morning at 10 days and it was just fine.  It's fully hollow sounding and very, very crispy crusted.  Nothing squishy at all.

It looks like (awaiting confirmation with lower temps) that my previous thermostat was reading high, thus baking lower and giving me what i wanted as opposed to this glossy interior that others like but I don't.

 But I have directions to try which is what I wanted.  And the lower temperature should help with the sharper flavor of the crust I bet.

I can't imagine your bread falling apart with less than 50% AP.  Should be great.  Would love to hear how it turns out.

Thanks again all.

a_warming_trend's picture
a_warming_trend

One baker's problem is another's ideal! The crumb looks beautiful to me!

Alchemist42's picture
Alchemist42

Mini, how did it come out?  Happy with it??

I am finding that the bread that started this conversation is toasting very well.  I'm going to try it at around 400 this coming weekend and see how it changes.

awarmingtrend - thanks.  Overall I like how it came out. Good spring.  Nice flavor.  And as odd as it might sound, I think I am going to get just a touch more aggressive with my final forming.  I want just a bit more even crumb with less larger holes.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

large bubbles.  :)  Finer crumb is easier, lower hydration, degas more.   

My loaf was a funny bird.  Sitting in the banneton overnight (something I rarely do) dried it out too much, even inside a plastic bag.  I flipped out the dough and liked the rings on the dough surface but didn't like the lack of gas trapped in the loaf so I pinched the bottom seams tighter, plopped it into a buttered loaf pan and covered with a wet towel directly so it could absorb the water and rehydrate the surface enabling a stretch and rise.  It did after warming up but ripped the side during the oven spring.  The top was just too dry.

The scoring opened and the taste happily satisfies. In retrospect, a highly scored or over-scored surface might have saved its looks.  I might just do it again to see how much I can cut up the surface.   Something intricate to expand.  Or I could have found a warm steamy chamber to let the dough rise and kept it low and round.  My plans for this loaf was to have slices for the toaster so logic steered me in the direction of the loaf pan. 

Put the crusty bread inside a container overnight to soften the crust.  So far so good.   Interesting that I have a panned loaf shape with banneton rings on top.   High-bred looks?  :)

After the bread, I baked 4 trays of nut cookies to be sandwiched together with lemon prune jam.

I ate one end last night, sweet buttered with blue cheese.  The sweet crunchy toasty wheaty crust reminds me of grape nut cereal, went well together with the strong cheese.  The bread is very sour this morning.  Great with just butter.  :)

Alchemist42's picture
Alchemist42

I love grape nuts. Now there is a flavor I would not mind having.

Yes, I have the large bubbles down.  And yes, finer crumb was easy with yesterday's bake.  Dropped the temperature to 425 for 20 and then 400 for 30 more.  Glossy is all gone.  Just like I wanted.

And crazy oven spring.  With only a 42 minute proof.

Now to find my balance.  I want a little more caramelization and crunch.  And at 88% hydration, for some reason this handled like a dream.  Tried a different loaf forming technique on the loaf on the left.  Basically oiled my board and did a series of stretch and folds for both initial and  final forming.  Most tension I've been able to develop yet.  And have it hold.

 

High-bred looks.  I like that phrase!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

If you try to not slash or score straight across the top middle, you will get more height on the spring.  Have fun!  :)

Alchemist42's picture
Alchemist42

I think something got confused in translation.  I had more spring on these loaves then I have seen before.  I was not complaining or looking for more.  Or maybe I don't get your comment. :)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

you were either complaining or looking for more height.  Glad you are getting closer to your dream loaf.  

I have noticed that this loaf has lower shoulders or lower curve on the loaf.  I was just noticing that all the loaves pictured have a slash down the middle.  This might play a role.  Shaping and tightening the skin is key.  More in that direction would be good.  I was wondering what would happen if you tried one long score off to the side and let it open with the spring, just for fun.  Sort of like opening a roll top desk.  :)  

Alchemist42's picture
Alchemist42

Talk about things that I had not thought of.  I've see that roll top desk opening and never really processed how it happened.  I kept thinking it was the angle of the slash not the placement.  Off to the side the next one goes.

As it is, slashing has been somewhat on the lower priority level taking a backseat to dough tension and handling.  That's another way to say I've had a hell of a time getting nice cuts.  This last bake with a short 42 minute proof gave me the best results yet.  As is pretty common to hear, my razor likes to grab and tear.  But as I get my proofing time correct and my wet dough handling down, that is getting better.  But it's still a long way to go.

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

Tartine Bread, if I recall, has you baking the basic country loaf for 20 minutes at 450 covered and 20 minutes at 450 uncovered.   Your times and temperatures differ quite a bit and I was wondering why. Are you baking different sized loaves?

Alchemist42's picture
Alchemist42

I don't really see that I am that far different.  He pre-heats to 500 as do I.  Yes, he bakes at 450 initially and in this iteration I left mine at 500 but both finished at 450.  Regardless, in iterations before this I've been 500/450/450 and did not like the glossy, gelatinous texture that many seem to prize.  That, thanks to mini, lead me to reducing to 400 and increasing my time accordingly.

Does that answer it?

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

I was going off of the original post:

20 minutes with lid at 500 F

40 minutes without lid at 450F

That seemed quite different than 20 on at 450 and 20 off at 450 with a doubling of the bake time with the lid off.

Alchemist42's picture
Alchemist42

I doubled the baking time was an attempt to get rid of what I thought was a gummy texture due to being under baked.  I did not go through all my permutations of troubleshooting.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Open glossy crumb for this kind of bread just means I was baked to perfection - probably 205 F on the inside.   No gloss with same open crumb is a defect and undesirable around here.  Get an instant read thermometer and then no guessing is necessary.

You need the heat for proper spring and bloom 500 F for 2 minutes alter the stone is at that temperature for 15 minutes, then turn down the oven down to 460 F for the rest of the steaming period and then turn down to 425 F convection once the steam comes out - until the inside is 205 F.  Then turn off the oven with the bread on the stone and leave the oven door ajar so the crust can crisp. for about 5 minutes .  The temperature of the interior will then be 208 F or so for an 800 G loaf. 

The larger the loaf the lower the non steamed temperature and the longer the baking time. 

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

I think that every time I've stuck the thermometer in a loaf of bread coming out of my oven, the temperature invariably reads 208-212, usually 211.  Fortunately, I love bread enough to enjoy the open glossy crumb as well as the softer/drier closer crumb.  As long as it isn't tough, and tastes delicious, there is a place in my heart for all great bread.

Alchemist42's picture
Alchemist42

I want to start off by saying I am REALLY impressed with your breads and bakes!

And it's really nice to hear that I did not have 'gummy' bread but mis-identified bread.

Doesn't change the fact that it isn't to my taste and this was really all about finding out the parameter I needed to change to control the bread in the direction I wanted it.  If what I like is a fault to some, so be it :)

And I would beg to differ that 500 F is needed to get proper oven spring.  This last bake at at slightly cooler temperature exceeded all my previous oven springs.  And even if it was just more tension in the loaf, it still had more  than enough spring form tastes.

That all said....can you tell how to make toadies?  They sound GREAT!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

a Fresh Lofian - toad.de.b- a great handle by the way,  He took some wheat germ and bran and dry toasted them in a skillet util they were golden brown.  A we all know that 'brown food tastes good' and Toadies are no exception.  Lucy took some sifted middlings and just about anything else she could find, like sesame and fax seeds, and added them in to the mix too - and named them Toadies.  But anyone cam personalize their own version of Toadies.  Lucy thinks the only thing that may be a better flavor enhancer for bread is possibly.... a low temperature baked scald with sprouted grains, red and white malts some pumpernickel altus....with some seeds and maybe some nuts depending on the bread :-)

That is the great thing about bread.  It should be what ever you like best,  Some folks don't like SD, or: bold bales,  large holes or whole grain breads or rye breads or what ever.  I'm not a big fan of white breads and prefer SD ones.  Thankfully we can craft them anyway we want until we are each pleased as punch.

Happy baking