What contributes to ovenspring, extensibility or elasticity (tension)?
I am currently reading 'Open crumb mastery' by Trevor J Wilson (highly recommend). In the book, under the chapters about tension, he talks about how tension and dough strength (elasticity) helps to improve oven spring. One of the points he makes is that it requires more gas to rise a dough under tension than a dough that is not under tension. That extra gas will expand in the oven and thereby help with ovenspring. Makes good sense and all, but then later in the book he also talks about how extensible dough has great ovenspring aswell. He for example talks about how the classic tartine loaf has a great open crumb from all the ovenspring (among other things), but because it is so extensible it is typically not as tall.
So what really makes good oven spring? A dough with good tension and dough strength, or a dough with alot of extensibility?
Not to mention a hot stone in the oven with the proper amount of steam. They are quite a few contradictions in Trevor’s (book)PDF in my reading of it. He gets close to a definitive conclusion and then walks it back. It’s all good info but with a lot of the caveats and variables and that in a nutshell is bread making. As he states in his book all doughs start at perfection and then go downhill from there. YRMV
How would you quantify an oven spring, by its size expansion from a dough by doubling or tripling?
But it’s somewhere between wow and meh;-)
Haha, I like that response. The question was for the originator, but thanks for the response anyway. Cheers!
In my opinion, only gassing power of the chosen leavener and underproofing contribute to oven spring, as well as the dough consistency (stiff/dry or soft/moist). Because soda breads made with weak or strong flours with or without gluten have great oven spring without steam, heated hearth or even gluten development. One does not even need to preheat the oven at all to have an amazing oven spring in free formed loaves.
Extensibility and elasticity have to do with the final shape of the loaf, whether it flows sideways under its own weight or rises up as it bakes, imho. But the oven spring (increase on volume) has to do with other factors.
The very extensible pizza dough for example has great oven spring simply because it is underproofed (or not proofed at all) and has enough yeast in it, so the thicker parts of the crust around the edge double and triple in volume in the oven. There is not much mass in that pizza crust, so it ovensprings upward.
Respectfully, can you remark on how "dough consistency (stiff/dry or soft/moist)" is not highly related to what bakers mean when they use the terms extensible and elastic?
Hi!
I am only talking about max possible volume during fermentation and baking as it relates to the dough consistency.
Let's say yeasted pancake batter, how much it can rise in volume? Or batter breads, when proofed before baking and during baking (oven spring)? There is no elasticity or extensibility in batters at all, they are liquids with gluten in them. But there is a huge oven spring.
The same is with very stiff starters or bagel dough which do not rise, practically no oven spring as in chewy and dense Montreal bagels. No elasticity or extensibility to speak of as if they were made from clay or playdough.
Strangely enough they have no extensibility and no elasticity not because of their dough consistency, but due to the way they were mixed or kneaded.
Elasticity and extensibility are two different parameters of the same dough and they have to do with its flour strength and degree of gluten development.
The better you knead your dough, the more extensible it becomes, to the point of infinity, if you destroy gluten by excessive kneading. Elasticity is its ability to spring back when stretched or squeezed. It peaks at a certain point of gluten development and then falls down to zero due to excessive kneading.
Unkneaded, freshly mixed, dough is not stretchy, zero extensibility, and does not spring back if squeezed, for example. The same dough, depending on the degree of its gluten development will change its elacticity and extensibility parameters, and with them - possible max volume and the size of its oven spring if underproofed before baking.
99.99%of problems with oven spring that new bakers have are due to them missing their classes on kneading/degrees of gluten development and degrees of proofing before baking, not due to wrong hydration, hearth temperature, steam, extensibility or elasticity, etc.
99.99%of problems with oven spring that new bakers have are due to them missing their classes on kneading/degrees of gluten development and degrees of proofing before baking, not due to wrong hydration, hearth temperature, steam, extensibility or elasticity, etc.
As a newer baker, this feels right but what's hard to get without just baking a lot is the relative effect of, say, hydration if any. That is, does hydration have any effect on how much to knead, when proofing is done etc? Does initial oven temp matter and if so, how much? What about steam vs no steam at a given temp? etc etc...
I'm JUST starting to get a feel for this but I really kind of wish there was a cheatsheet saying things like "for a basic dough, always start with steam. Most breads should start at NNN degrees" etc. Like all cheatsheets, it won't be 'right' but getting close in our first few loaves would be less... um... I can't resist.. less deflating.
Sorry, I missed your comment back then, clevins, only saw it today. Are you struggling with some specific bread right now and can't figure out its secret?
I tried using cheat sheets, people do try writing them based on their experience, and they caused me more harm than good. They are for those who already understand dough and feel it and therefore are not necessary.
The issue here is the scope of generalization. We only bake one bread at a time. Not one loaf, but one bread, using one recipe for that bread. Generalizations about all breads or even all breads possible from the same dough simply won't work.
So, in my case, learning proceeds by screwing that specific recipe, that bread, and then trying to figure out where exactly I deviated from the recipe or misunderstood its instructions and testing my hypotheses by doing test bakes. That is how I learned to bake bread. One
failedbread at a time. I do not design my own breads from scratch, on a piece of paper, I use tested recipes.Sure, there are exciting discoveries as you go, about baking with or without preheating your oven, with of without or with too much steam, with hot steam, with cold steam etc. that you can then apply to your other breads, but they , those factors, are not as important and never really deflating (your ego or your bread) per se.
Hydration has nothing to do with how much to knead, only with the bread you make. Both stiff and hyperhydrated doughs can be kneaded either little or intensely, it depends on bread. The recipe for that bread tells us both its hydration and how much to knead, to which degree to develop its gluten to achieve the desired look, aroma, taste and keeping qualities of that specific bread.
Does initial oven temp matter? Yes for some breads and not at all for others. Yes for some ovens and not at all for others. As you know, some breads can be baked anywhere, others require quite specific ovens, or specific kinds of hearths preheated to extremely high temps etc. Yet bread machine, a sofisticated instrument for bread dough making and bread baking which makes amazing bread if you are lucky, always starts baking from cold oven!
A wood fired oven just has to be preheated whereas home ovens, electical or gas, heat up so quickly that preheating can be skipped if you wish and if your breads are of substantial size and thickness. Rolls and flatbreads, like pita breads for example, do require preheated ovens.
Thanks for the detailed thoughts. I've come to agree with you, it's a lot of trying and learning. Nothing I've done has been a disaster (though the whole wheat ciabatta from the other day has a future as bread crumbs...). My thoughts about a cheatsheet is that it can be frustrating to not have things turn out right (tight crumb etc) and some guidelines ("if you're seeing X, it might be N or M") would be handy.
But things like judging proofing etc really just something you need to do.
Clevins, I only know one rather thick book (330pages) in English dedicated to that subject and it is very good.
I am in Canada, so I ordered it from Switzerland and it is not cheap, about $50. But it is worth it. There are many copies of that book available in the US public library system as well, you can get it via interlibrary loan.
https://www.worldcat.org/title/guide-to-perfect-bakery-and-confectionery/oclc/156874238&referer=brief_results
For some breads and pastries dozens of common falts and their causes are listed, beautifully illustrated and explained. Very thorough.
You can click on preview and see for yourself
https://richemont.swiss/en/article/perfect-bakery-and-confectionery/
https://books.richemont.swiss/en/books/perfect-bakery-and-confectionery
I have have fouled this up so many times that I can claim some expertise, in a reverse sort of way, What I have learned is that oven spring (the mainly upward expansion that looks great and forms a grigne if you have scored for it) needs both extensibility and elasticity.
If the dough isn't extensible, as it get pushed up by the CO2, it will just break and fall back; just like just-incorporated dough if you try to windowpane it before building any gluten.
If the dough isn't elastic (strong/stiff) when pushed by the CO2 it will just push out sideways; at worst, it will flow like a slow pancake. If your dough is closer to batter, just bake it in a loaf pan. The pan sides do what the gluten would have done and hold the dough up (if the extensibility lets it stretch).
Enough time or folds or kneading will always get you extensibility, even in a wet dough. But too much hydration and it's adios elasticity and hello frisbee. From what I've read, if you have a lot of rye flour and work it too hard, the pentosans will release water and you're in pancake territory. Or if you overferment the acids from the bacteria eat the gluten and bye-bye elasticity.