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Janedo's "Basic Bread"

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dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Janedo's "Basic Bread"

Janedo's "basic bread"


Janedo's "basic bread"


Janedo's basic bread crumb


Janedo's basic bread crumb

Jane ("Janedo") is an American expatriot who has lived in France for 15 years with her husband and children. She has a wonderful blog about her sourdough baking ( http://www.aulevain.canalblog.com/ ) with a loyal and enthusiastic following. We have been fortunate to have her participation on TFL, and there have been some rather interesting discussions of differences in taste preferences in France versus the U.S., the frustrations of exchanging recipes when the ingredients we use, particularly the flours, are not comparable and other topics.

 Currently, Jane is, I think it's fair to say, struggling to like San Francisco style sourdough bread made from Peter Reinhart's formula in "Crust and Crumb." Of course, we cannot know exactly what she is baking, since we cannot duplicate it with the flours we have. Nor can she know what my baking from this formula produces with King Arthur Bread Flour and Guisto's whole rye flour.

Jane has shared the recipe for what she calls her "basic bread." She says this is the bread her family prefers (and asks her to return to whenever she inflicts San Francisco-style sourdough on them). This was my first attempt to duplicate Jane's bread. She uses a combination of T65 and white spelt flour. I don't have access to T65. I debated as to how I might best approximate it. I'm not at all sure I made the best decision, but the recipe and procedure I used, adapted from Jane's recipe, follows:

Ingredients

150 gms active liquid starter (fed with high extraction flour, 100gms flour to 130 gms of water))
315 ml water

400 gms First Clear flour
140 gms White Spelt flour
7 gms Sea Salt.

Procedure

I mixed the starter and 300 ml water then added the flours and salt. I mixed in a KitchenAid stand mixer with the paddle for 1.5 minutes at Speed 1, then with the dough hook at Speed 2.  After the first minute, the dough cleaned the sides and bottom of the mixer bowl. This seemed too dry, so I added 1 T (15 ml) water at this point, resulting in the dough still cleaning the sides but sticking to the bottom of the mixer bowl.

The dough made a "window pane" after 9.5 minutes mixing with the dough hook. It was quite tacky. If I pressed on it for a couple of seconds, it was sticky, but with brief contact it did not stick to my (lightly floured) hands. The dough kept its form easily without spreading but was very extensible.

(I am describing the dough in such detail because the differences in flours we use result in such different doughs at the same hydration. I think the behavior of the dough and its feel will give another person better guidance, if they want to reproduce this bread. For that matter, it gives me more guidance if I want to change it next time.)

I put the dough on a lightly floured Silpat mat and, after a brief rest, stretched and folded it a couple of times, then placed the dough in a lightly oiled glass 2 liter measuring cup with a cover to ferment.

The dough doubled in volume in 7 hours. I scraped it onto the Silpat, rounded it gently and let it rest for 15 minutes. I then shaped a boule and placed it, smooth side down, in a linen-lined wicker banneton. I lightly floured the surface of the dough and enclosed the banneton in a plastic bag.

The boule was allowed to expand to 1 1/2 times the original volume (1.75 hours) then transfered to a peel and slid onto a baking stone in a pre-heated 450F oven. 1 cup of boiling water was poured into a pre-heated cast iron skillit, the oven door was closed and the oven was turned down to 410F. After 5 minutes, I removed the skillit and continued to bake for 35 minutes. (The internal temperature of the loaf was 205F after 30 minutes, but I wanted the crust a bit darker and to be sure this large loaf was well-baked.) I then turned off the oven but left the loaf in the oven for another 5 minutes.

The crust was qute hard when the boule came out of the oven, but it softened considerably as the loaf cooled.

Eating

The crust was somewhat crunchy, but more chewy. The crumb had a lovely, tender, slightly chewy texture. I could not identify a distinctive flavor I could attribute to the spelt flour (which I had never used before). I thought I should add a little more salt next time - maybe 10 gms rather than 7 gms. The sourness in the bread hit on the 5th chew and became progressively more apparent. I would regard this as a moderately sour sourdough, certainly more sour than the pains au levains I have made from Hamelman or Leader's recipes.

With all levain breads, the flavors seem to fully develop and become better integrated on the second or third day after baking. So, stay tuned.

David

Comments

Janedo's picture
Janedo

This is so interesting! I'd love to sink my teeth in to it to see what it tastes like.

Quite frankly white spelt doesn't really change the flavour that much, it's more the texture. You'd have to go to a darker spelt or what we call "petite épeautre" which is actually another grain altogether to really notice a distinct difference.

I'm going to weigh my salt to see exactly how much it makes, but since it's "humid" I don't know if that makes a difference.

The crust of my bread gets pretty darn crunchy, and since it often "bursts", there are bigger crunchy parts and then thinner crunchy parts (do you see what I mean?).

When I make this bread the crumb is a little bit "greyer" so that to me is evidence of the differences in flour. The crumb is quite chewy. The sour flavor disctinct compared to other breads I make and as you say, moderately soury. Here, bread never survives more than a day so I never notice a developement with time. Let me know.

Your holes look nice and big! 

Thanks so much for doing to test. I really enjoy the exchange and it is a real learning experience for me.

Jane 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Jane.

Can you tell me more about how spelt affects the texture? This bread had a very nice texture.

Hmmm ... Next time I make this, I'm going to try a mix of white and whole wheat, I think (along with the spelt).

I wonder why you get a crunchy crust and mine turned out chewy. Maybe my dough was a bit wetter. When I pre-shaped it and let it rest, it did spread a bit. You had said it should not do this. That could be because my flours resulted in a less elastic dough or because my dough was higher hydration than yours.

I really like the timing of your recipe, although I would still usually have to make it on weekends. Maybe I need to retire so I can stay home and bake bread.

David

Janedo's picture
Janedo

One thing... the starter I use for this is made with T110, so it adds a bit of whole wheat to it, little may it be.

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Pretty looking loaf.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Thanks, Floyd!
 David

holds99's picture
holds99

David,

I'm truly amazed and impressed as you continue to produce such beautiful loaves of bread.  That crumb is just...wow!

Howard - St. Augustine, FL

Bushturkey's picture
Bushturkey

Hi.

I don't know enough at this time to care about the technical subtleties of flour. As the long as the bread looks, smells and tastes good, I'm happy. But I do like to learn as much as possible also.

Different flours have different ash content. I wrote to the flour mill that I get my flour from and asked for technical data, such as ash content.

The organic white flour had 0.55% ash (I presume this is equivalent to a T55?), the organic whole meal was 1.3% and rye was 0.9%.

I wonder, can you mix different amounts of each to achieve different ash content? The flours also varied with respect to water absorption (64.0, 69.0 and 70.0 respectively for white, wholemeal and rye. Mixing them will also affect the water absorption as well, I guess.

For example, to get a flour with 0.65% ash, could I mix 133g wholemeal and 867g white and get 1000g of flour with 0.65% ash (I worked out the math with algebra, using x's and y's - it's not that complicated - 133g multiplied by 0.013 PLUS 867g multiplied by 0.0055, gives you 1Kg flour and 6.50 g ash or 0.65%). Is it the same as a T65 flour in France?

I can get the same ash content also, by mixing 714g white flour and 286g rye.

Is that what flour mills do to get the different T ratings?

Sorry if it's too much information!

SteveB's picture
SteveB

Please note that the ash content of French flours is determined on a dry basis while with American flours it is not.  Thus a type 55 French flour is not exactly equivalent to an American flour with 0.55% ash content.  

Eli's picture
Eli

That is a gorgeous loaf and a beautiful crumb!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Thanks Howard and Eli! 

This project - trying to duplicate a favorite bread of another baker - has been a lot of fun for me.  

This recipe makes really good bread and is a lot simpler than many of the other recipes I've tried. I like the performance of the liquid starter a lot. Now, I want to try it with other flour combinations, and I want to figure out how to make it with a crunchier crust, like that which Jane gets. 

After all I've learned in the past 2 years from other TFL bakers and from my own experience, I finally feel ready to play with a recipe, trying to achieve an imagined result. It remains to be seen if I can actually do so, of course, but the attempt cannot help but be educational! 

David

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Very nice project David. The re-creation that you baked looks like a nice attempt considering you had to guess at the flour. Great looking crumb!

It would be nice if someone who really understands flour would publish a formula for creating a blend similar to T-55 and T-65 for example, using flours available in the US. KA flour apparently thinks they have figured it out in their French Style flour offering but it's only available in those nice sample gift sizes.

BTW David, I solved my sourdough sourness problem by switching to a blend with 70%AP:20%WW:10%Rye and maintaining at room temps, feeding every day. Now I am controlling the sour with time and or temp and there is plenty. The Wharf Bread is great!

Eric

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Eric. 

This bread was very good. Actually, it is still good 4 days after baking - a little dry but with "mature" flavor. 

I have been having the same thoughts as you about how great it would be to have better methods of approximating European flours with what we have here. I wonder if some one like Jeff Hamelman who has a lot of experience baking in Europe might be helpful. It might be worth a call or e-mail to King Arthur. 

I have been baking with Guisto's Bakers' Choice when recipes call for T55 French flour. As far as I can tell, it is a pretty good clone. At least its performance seems like that described for T55. King Arthur "Artisan" flour seems similar in behavior. Janedo and others who contribute to her blog use T65 and T110 flours mostly. T110 is whole wheat, I think. I have read that First Clear flour is the King Arthur flour that comes closest to T65, but I'm sceptical regarding the match. I wonder if Golden Buffalo might be closer. Or a mix of a T55 clone and some amount of whole wheat flour.

 Congratulation on achieving a sourdough blend that does what you like! Are you using the same proportions in the starter and in the dough? 

The truth is I feed my starter different flours according to whim more than method, but the end result may be very close to your blend. I most often feed the starter First Clear flour but almost always have some rye either in the intermediate starter or the final dough. Other times, I feed my starter bread flour. 

I'm going to be making another loaf of Janedo's "basic bread" this weekend. This morning, I fed a liquid starter with whole wheat flour and will feed it the same tonight. I also am activating my white rye sour for Greenstein's Sour Rye Bread, FYI.

David

ehanner's picture
ehanner

David,
Last night I made a batch of the SD that Susan posted as her ultimate SD. It has I think 10% WW and All Trumps. My daughter and I  just consumed the entire loaf (small 1#) and agreed it was the best SD I have ever made. I had a partial bag of KA Bread flour that I thought would be similar to the AT that I used. This was really special flavor with a full after taste and medium sour. I'm still drooling and kicking myself for not making more.

 I have been using the blended flours for feeding the starter only. 70:20:10. The activity just took off and suddenly it smells like apples. No more refrigerating the starter for me, this is too good.

I want to try the Janedo's Basic next that you posted. The photo looks like it came out of a magazine. I'll look forward to seeing your rye.

Eric

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Eric.

Jane's recipe calls for a liquid starter, so I made one. I love the way it smells and how it performs. However, it is just not practical for me to keep a liquid starter at room temperature all the time. I would have to feed it twice a day, or more! Since I almost never can bake bread except on weekends, I would end up wasting a lot of flour, which would bother me. Even refrigerated, the liquid starter starts throwing off hooch and turning into potato soup in 4-6 days.

I'll probably return to converting some firm starter to liquid starter, as needed.

David

Janedo's picture
Janedo

I have taken the firm starter from the beginning of Reinhart's recipe and kept it in the fridge, then made it into liquid starter. Sometimes I just mix all the starters I have together (when I have too much) and remake a liquid, that I then take to make other recipes and other starters. Sourdough is very versatile and I find that once the firm has been made to liquid, the nice sour smell comes back after one feeding.

So, you can keep a liquid starter in the fridge and take the portion you want out and feed it, ready for the next day, making sure that you feed the one in the fridge about once a week. I have gone a lot longer than this because Bill (from TLF) said I could and it worked, no problem! It comes back right away, after a good feeding. As I say, mine is T110 so I don't know if that makes a difference. 

Janedo's picture
Janedo

I'm going to give her receipe a try as soon as I can make bread again. I want to compare it to my basic bread because it seems similar.

Janedo's picture
Janedo

I just want to add that our T110 is not whole wheat, T150 is whole wheat. T110 is what we call "bis", in-between. Mixing whole wheat with white doesn't make T110 because the real T110 doesn't have large bran flakes in it, only little tiny ones. But you can probably get a decent result.  T80, my favorite flour, you can't get it there. It looks white... but it's not!

I also use ONLY organic flour and never T55.

Is it possible to send samples of the flour so you can see, or is that illegal over there ?

I can't get big holes with the san fran sourdough, is it because the gluten is so developed? 

I went and broke my right hand pinky today and it sure makes typing very difficult!!! 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Jane. 

Thanks for the correction regarding T110. I wonder if T110 might just be a finer grind of T150. I wonder if T80 could be white whole wheat.  I have King Arthur Organic Whole Wheat flour. It is very finely ground. However, bread I've baked with this has an extremely dark-colored, dense crumb. 

BTW, I just visited the King Arther web site section for professional bakers. Under their products, they list "King Arthur Type 65." Unfortunately, I cannot display the pdf file on my office computer. 

I don't know any laws against shipping flour samples. It's a very nice thought.  

Regarding the SF SD crumb: Well-developed gluten per se should make larger holes possible. To obtain larger holes, in general, I increase the hydration of the dough. But look at the photo of this bread in Crust & Crumb. The holes are not really very big. My SF SD made from Reinhart's recipe turns out just like his photos. Maybe you are making it completely correctly. You just prefer breads with a more open crumb. (I do!) 

I'm sorry to hear about your finger! Ouch! I hope it heals well and quickly!

David

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Mini

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Here is a link to a TFL thread from last fall which has the best information I've found to date comparing American and French flour types, assuming the information is correct: 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4628/european-flour-types-german-550-french-t-55-italian-00-flours#comment-23274 

So, Jane, it looks like your Type 110 flour is "light whole wheat." I wonder if this means it is milled from white wheat (light in color) or finely ground (light in texture) or both.

David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I have a second batch of Jane's pain au levain rising. It should be baked and ready for dinner this evening. 

This time, I fed the liquid starter twice with KA organic whole wheat flour (probably like T150). The dough ingredients are: 

160 gms Starter
307 gms water
540 gms KA Bread Flour
10 gms Salt 

The dough is nice and supple. It has lots of dark flecks of bran. It is a little bit drier than my first attempt, so I expect the crumb to be denser, but we'll see. 

I continue to look for French/American flour equivalencies. At this point, I'm pretty sure King Arthur "European-style Artisan Flour" is an attempt to replicate T65 French flour. T110 still eludes definition, but I bet a call to KA can answer the question, and I bet the answer will be White Whole Wheat. 

I'll post a new Blog entry when Jane's bread is done.  

Jane, I hope your finger is doing well! If we were closer neighbor's, I'd bring a loaf of "your" bread over!

David

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Thanks very much for the though!

I got my son to make the Monge baguettes. When I figure out how to make my pictures "smaller" to fit in a blog entry, I'll show them to you. They're nice. I've made them twice since I told you about them, but upped the hydration by a lot! 

holds99's picture
holds99

I don't think you have to worry about sizing your pictures before posting them to the gallery as long as they're jpg file format.  I post my pictures to the gallery in jpg format where they are available to use in a posting.  When I first started trying to post I had the same problem, trying to manually size my pictures to fit the format.  I think the upload software does it for you automatically.

Howard - St. Augustine, FL

Floydm's picture
Floydm

I think the gallery software will size them down. I still recommend using Flickr or PhotoBucket to host your images though, since they provide much nicer image sizing and management tools than I ever will be able to. And they are free.

Janedo's picture
Janedo

I'm a bit slow on the technical stuff. I managed to do it with GIMP