November 6, 2020 - 4:38am
Autolyse with or without levain included, with or without kneading
I've been tweaking around with my process and have been trying autolyse for the past several bakes, mixing the main bulk flour and water together and letting them sit for an hour or so before adding my levain and salt.
Here's the thing. It just doesn't feel right to me when mixing it. The autolysed mixture develops a very firm elastic texture and the levain is typically rather fluffy. They simply don't feel like they mix well together.
I could I guess try two different things here (or maybe more - suggestions welcome!):
- I could knead it to incorporate it better - but I've heard such yelps of protest when I mentioned kneading my sourdough (...in a FB group mostly) that I've dropped it from my process (although it was actualy part of the recipe my starter-donor gave me)
- the objections to kneading seem to be centred around the way it would destroy the rise - and people were advising stretch and fold instead of kneading
- stretch and fold is all very well - but the idea that kneading kills your air incorporation doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because if you do it at the beginning of bulk fermentation I think you've got rid of the existing bubbles anyway and kneading shouldn't hurt it
- I actually LIKE kneading and was kind of disappointed to learn that this was Not How Things Are Done in the sourdough world
- the objections to kneading seem to be centred around the way it would destroy the rise - and people were advising stretch and fold instead of kneading
- I could mix the levain and the bulk flour and water together to autolyse for a bit, then mix/fold/knead/addsalt after that
Any advice? It could be of course that the fact it doesn't feel right to me doesn't mean it isn't right. But... it doesn't feel right.
tx
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If that means you want to knead it, go ahead and knead it.
What you've described is a very typical approach. Whether you call it mixing or kneading, the autolyzed flour/water mixture has to be combined with the levain and the salt. If the autolyzed dough is stiff and the levain is rather liquid, then it will take some serious kneading to combine everything. And no, it won't destroy the rise, whatever the naysayers might mean by that.
If the liquid levain constitutes a significant percentage of the water in the final dough, your last point might be the best approach. The flour still gets a good soak before the salt is added and you can skip the struggle of combining a stiff blob with a liquid levain. What you've described has been nicknamed "fermentolyze".
Stretch and fold is a good technique for working with loose, extensible doughs but isn't nearly as effective with stiff, elastic doughs.
One last thought: there's a kneading technique called frissage or fraisage. It works fairly well for combining dough components that have different consistencies. In your case, you could cut the stiff autolyze into small chunks and dump them on the countertop. Then pour the liquid levain over the pile of autolyze chunks. Use the heel of one hand to press down and away from you, smearing some of the chunks and liquid together. Hold a scraper in the other hand and use it to gather the smeared portion back to the pile. Repeat the smearing and scraping until everything is uniformly combined. It will be a fair amount of work because a stiff autolyze will resist incorporation until it has absorbed enough moisture from the levain. By smearing them on the countertop, you increase the surface area of the chunks and bring them into contact with the wetter levain. As mentioned before, it's your bread so do whatever works best for you and gives you the results you want.
Paul
There's a word for it! (And a Talking Heads song too ;-))
Thanks for the technique advice. It's a wide world of options out there and great to get some guidance about how it's organised. [Before getting into really intense smearing I need to redo my countertop grout (it's tile - surprisingly handy for super-hot pots and pans - but the grout is 30 years old at least and is coming loose - atm I try to work only on one tile and keep a watch for bits coming loose...). Or I could perhaps sneak my potting bench into the kitchen (it's steel topped). This is also a tricky project, but in a different way...]
cheers!
A tiled countertop has more drawbacks than advantages, in my opinion. I certainly wouldn't want to have to clean out the tile after doing a frissage, even if the grout was solid instead of loose.
Paul
A visit your local homebuilding do-it-yourself store to pick up a thin piece of laminate or other surface. Cut to size, placed on top of your tile and secured. You'll have a viable work area that can be stored and reused.
1 - don't listen
2 - all bs
3 - I also like kneading. I do a little traditional kneading to incorporate everything at the start, each time it rises a couple hundred percent, and my shaping is actually done by kneading
4 - whatever ya like - I add everything at the start and go from there, I don't touch it till it rises - a lot.
Advice - don't doubt your sense of feel - most have no idea how accurate that can be. And - make what you like, any way you like to. Don't make things any more complicated than they already are, and bread is extremely uncomplicated. The reason you see so many ways to do it, and contradicting/conflicting ways at that, is cuz it's so simple it's really hard to screw up. Would ya believe all ya need to do to make bread is throw some stuff in a bowl - and leave it alone. If you can boil water (without hurting yourself) you can make bread! Enjoy!
Thanks for the encouragement to go off-road. It suits me ;-) I cook by feel and by smell and by taste. (I am 100% not a cake person...) And I love that bread (almost always) turns out well. There's such a lot to learn about what works to create different kinds of breads. Because I'm kind of a nerd this is also satisfying in a different way. I will continue to go boldly forth! Asking for advice along the way.
cheers!
Add that's how I go. I don't plan meals, I look in the fridge, look in the cabinet, then go, that sounds good and start cooking. I'd highly recommend a focus on the fundamentals (always the place to start), learn about gluten, the effects of temp and time and how the leavening agent works (whatever it happens to be). Everything is based on that, and those things are actually pretty simple.
Cake - unless it's a super rich and moist chocolate, I'll pass. I think it was in the movie men in black - don't doubt the power of pie! Enjoy!
Im not an expert yet by any means but one thing I’ve noticed over the last few months is that there’s certain groups that are very focused on only one method. Sometimes it good to master one thing but I’ve learned that bread making is very diverse and there’s all kinds of methods, whether it be for kneading, or shaping or even feeding your starter. So from one novice to another I would encourage you to allow yourself to explore and find out what methods make bread that you enjoy, even if it’s different from what one group would recommend. I’ve been successful making great bread with stretch and folds from “Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast” but I’ve also had good results with slap and fold (thanks to the folks here!) and traditional kneading.
definitely lots to learn - and this group is great for that! and there's a lot of fresh bread happening 'round our place... which is great, too ;-)
baking bread, something like the best bread I ever made was when I weighed the ingredients at midnight during a full moon so now I will only weigh my ingredients under those circumstances.(obviously an exaggeration but lots of ideas aren’t far from that). They made good bread before oven temperature could be controlled accurately, before accurate scales were common etc. So I agree bread baking is less complicated than many make it appear.
Superstition - I like that! I use different terms but as these are public forums with a very wide user base, I try to keep a tight hold on the reins. I'll admit, sometimes it's hard - things that don't or won't follow logic make it tough to keep that hold. Enjoy!