The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

The forgotten loaf...

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

The forgotten loaf...

Has anyone else here  also enjoyed the new audiobook by Chad Robertson and Jennifer Latham?

I have started using their double booster feeding with good results and also love their mixing schedule introducing water in steps. Now I have been doing that anyway but love the shorter intervals and tried going beyond by normal comfort zone and upping by feel..ending on 87% hydration for a loaf with 2O% WW, 30% Canadian white and the rest Shipton Mill No. 4 Strong White..

Bulk for 3 and half hour at 26c and three coil folds, 30 min bench rest and 30 ambient proof in banneton before 3 c fridge. Baked in Rofco B20 oven and then I forgot this fella and this explains the darker and thicker crust at the bottom as it was sitting in the oven..

I baked this same loaf again today as another test batch  but with an 2 hour autolyse this time rather than 30 min and boy..I only could bassinage up to 83% hydration today...we shall see how bake tomorrow goes...and let's hope I don't forget another loaf...

I used to be a big fan of slap and folds but by using this method combined with coil folds I can also build good strength ..Happy baking! Kat

 

 

 

Comments

Bread1965's picture
Bread1965

Nice loaf! What do you mean by double booster feeding?! Thanks!

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

Going to ask the same question! 

Do they have a written version of their audio book? I read so much faster than listening to someone talking that I find audio books hugely annoying. 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

is basically making two levains at very short intervals on bake day. Jennifer Latham describes the process also a little bit in posts on her Instagram account. Listening is ok for me but I hear you...like with many books I find a few very useful snippets and with audio you need to cue it too..

No written version as far as I know..

I like it as they also briefly talk about the mixing in their bakery and this again was relevant to where I am in my journey. Just mini rests and adding water.....Happy Baking...

Bread1965's picture
Bread1965

but to get through some pod casts I'll actually ramp up the speed to 1.5x or 2.0x the normal pace in settings depending on how slow the speaker speaks!! ;)

 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and that is actually what my son does when he is revising...I always wonder though how he can absorb so fast!...

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and it means to feed levain twice at a very short interval on bake day.. So rather than my usual 1:2:2 build I now create two levains in the same time after each other with very warm water and proofing ...

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

But you'll know it as double fed sweet levain by Forkish. 

Bread1965's picture
Bread1965

Thanks Abe - nice to "see you" again!

 

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

Very nice indeed! I was just explaining a double fed sweet levain to Jacob, here on TFL, and recommended Forkish's recipe which I think he learned from Chad Robertson. It does produce a more mellow, tang wise, but no less flavoursome loaf. I've made it myself and was impressed. It's more of a yeasty pre-ferment. 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and it totally feels like a more yeasty and milky pre-ferment and I get lovely mellow loaves...not for people who love the extreme sour but a lovely taste and makes the flour shine I think......and also seems to err more on the 'lactic' side as I build the levain much earlier than waiting for that 'about to fall' or already gone down peak...

I am not at all familiar with Forkish and cannot say...For cinnamon buns I quite easily build a sweet overnight levain with sugar in it and works well too....

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Kat, beautiful crumb you achieved there.  I’ve never heard of this double booster feeding either.  I have Forkish’ book, but have to admit that I’ve been slow to actually read it.  I’ll have to see if I can find his description there.

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

I would be interested what Forkish says in his book. I like this methods as the builds are not wasteful and I use all from the first to go into the second which then is used for the batch... Time-wise it also makes not much more difference than my normal 1;2;2 feed which can take 5 hours to mature depending on temperature.

With this levain it is also important to keep it really nice and warm so that it is ready in 2 or in my case 2 and half hours to be used. 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

I used the same booster levain approach but instead 2 hours autolyse rather than 30 min in last bake......boy very wet dough and bassinaged up to 81-83ish...and then many coil folds at the beginning all together 4 so that none to be done towards the last hour of the bulk..at 26C room temp and 26C dough temp.

Love this crumb though and now might try this for one of my larger batches...maybe just go with 1 hour autolyse though.... Kat

 

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

Looks a absolutely delicious. You've inspired me to revisit this technique. Thank you Kat. 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and I think this also works really well with the adding water in steps mixing approach Abe...in the audiobook the have short mixes and breaks to add a bit of water and mix again with salt at the end and some water...I even added water after the salt depending on how the dough felt on the day...

Jennifer Latham shows this nicely in a number of posts on Instagram...https://www.instagram.com/tv/B-xoACIDVdh/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Benito's picture
Benito

Wow that is truly a wonderful crumb. 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

for me it is all about adjusting that ambient proof before fridge now....and it is nice to be able to be a bit more adventurous compared to worrying about over-proofing 30 loaves...

So was nice to make those loaves... Kat

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

your bunnies have both ears and eyes.

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

now I can see it that you mention it! Happy bunnies...

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

:)   The silhouette of the bread slice does look like a bunny.

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Need to work on that ...but I have a nice bunny shape anytime.....:D

albacore's picture
albacore

Kat, I listened to the audio book and noted the double booster technique. I imagine as well as increasing levain vitality, it will also decrease its acidity because of the lower feed ratio. But doesn't the technique put back the day's baking by several hours?

As regards the audio book format, as others have said, I find it rather tedious. A shame there is no basic transcript when you buy the book. I did try a speech to text app on my phone, but it wasn't a great success!

 

Lance

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

using this method as I normally build a young levain 1;2;2 in the early morning. Now as each levain build is much shorter than usual I now have built both in the time that I normally would have used for the one....it really works well...

They also talk about the frequent starter feeds before building levain/bake day and I have to say that for me refreshing the starter 3 times on days before the building levain has also worked well...

Don't get me wrong...perfectly good happy bread on a 2 day refresh maintenance but just the one or two days on three feeds a day before bake day does make a difference...my starter seems to be happier and frothier and just more joghurty.....it never tasted less of any acid....

I also like the short mix cycle and bassinage... and use it on my handmixed 21kg dough routine...no slap and folds anymore needed which were always a bit messy with that much dough...

Just as I fall into a routine with the handmixing...a new toy will arrive soon...the mixer!

albacore's picture
albacore

Joining our Famag club I believe, Kat!

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

It is a Famag IM 20, 10 Multispeed....so as you can imagine reading up about different approaches to mixing all the time... Michael Suas' book with the different methods and double hydration are a good start and how to aim for the 1000 rotations... Oh yes...there has been a lot of oogling of beautifully developed dough on Instagram...Kat

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

Well I've given my starter a feed. Was 60% hydration but I believe Forkish uses an 80% hydration starter. In the recipe it says the starter should preferably be fed within 24 hours of beginning the recipe and matured. So you start off with a recently matured starter before going onto the double fed sweet levain which ends up being a 'young starter'. So now my starter is 80% hydration, will be refrigerated tonight when matured to begin the levain tomorrow morning. Been a while since I've done this. Temperatures in the recipe are specific but I'm just going have to go by feel when he says 'warm water' and 'DDT'. 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

You can see Jennifer talk a little bit about their process on her Instagram page too. They recommend to feed the starter three times before the actual build levain day to get it very active. Interesting that yours will be in the fridge...

So I normally build mine after a three  times refresh and something like 1;10;10 over night at room temp... Then 7AM 40% inoculation and 30C warm water...after 2 and half hours again 40% inoculation and use it the moment it has enough air to float...key is to really keep it very warm all the time and I have it in my Brod & Taylor...

To what degree do you let the levain rise Abe and what does Forkish say about that... Kat

Anon2's picture
Anon2 (not verified)

The advice is the starter should be fed and allowed to fully mature within 24 hours of starting the levain build. I have deduced from that the purpose is to get it very active before building and using a young sweet levain and that within 24 hours means one can allow for some fridge time. But then again (i've just consulted the book) each recipe kinda starts where building a starter/levain from scratch ends. So starting the young levain is preceded by making a starter/levain and goes on to say... "about 24 hours after the last levain feed start on the young levain build one etc...". Yet, we're using an already mature starter! Hence my feeding it and allowing it to mature then using it within 24 hours. I suppose instead of refrigerating I could feed it again tonight, so it's had two feeds atleast, and then proceed onto the levain. 

Since my starter is used as just seed I tend not to build too much. And because the levain is going to be double fed in quick succession creating a young less mature starter my preceding feeds are not going to be too much and allowed to fully peak. This first feed was simply changing my starter to 80% hydration...

  • 16g starter (6g water + 10g bread flour)
  • 14g water
  • 15g bread flour

This will give me a mature starter of 20g water + 25g bread flour. If I choose another feed tonight I might discard all but 12g starter and feed...

  • 12g starter
  • 20g water
  • 25g bread flour 

So feed one is near enough 1:1 and feed two is near enough 1:2. Twice fed and twice matured before starting the levain builds.

This is my own thought process and not how Forkish describes in the book since he assumes you're making a starter before going into the recipe (or using a levain build from a maintainence schedule he keeps). This is just my own prepping of my existing starter. Forkish also tends to build hundreds of grams and discards most of it. My starter rarely is discarded and kept to the minimum (just where is store the yeasts and bacteria) and the recipe begins with the levain build. 

He doesn't go into detail of how active the levain is but he does mention the reason for the high percentage of the levain (higher than usual) is because it's less active than a typical levain in other recipes. 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Please let me know how it goes....I am very intrigued by the concept of 'young' and in the beginning petrified that I might not have enough microbes as I was refreshing and also using the levain much earlier than I normally would. But it always works with great taste... Kat

albacore's picture
albacore

To follow the Latham method fully, I think it's 2 days at 3 feeds and 2 more feeds in the morning of bake day - 8 feeds in all for one bake!

I know each feed only takes a few minutes, but I can see levain mix ennui setting in! But OTOH I can also see it making a very good, active levain.

Thinking out loud, what we need is a stirred micro-fermenter, a scaled down version of the one Daniel Leader uses and briefly talks about in "Living Bread". Example

Lance

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

we have continued feeding in our household anyway so... a starter is the least to worry about! :D

On a serious note, depending on the number of bake days it  actually is not that bad and I use  a bit of the 2nd levain to be continued as my maintenance starter rather than building a separate one on bake day.... I also use less flour than they suggest and just what I need for my builds on that day....

Also, I follow the pre-refreshing days not all the time but on the whole I think I have a 'nicer' and 'healthier' starter for it...but we all know that this is highly personal and subjective to each baker and what they try to achieve with their bread... Kat