The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Video - Dough turns soupy moments into kneading, Slack after proofing

whatsnewsisyphus's picture
whatsnewsisyphus

Video - Dough turns soupy moments into kneading, Slack after proofing

I put all the ingredients together (but for salt), autolyse for 30-60mins. At this point, the dough looks good, I measure and add the salt, and the dough still feels supple as I work the salt in, doesn't even stick to my hands.

I start kneading to give it an initial few minutes knead before the stretch and folds, and moments into kneading, this happens. The video is after a good five minutes of kneading.

By the end of 3 hours (6 stretch and folds) I usually have a manageable dough unlike the soup above . The other problem I have is, once I remove it from the proofing basket (colander), it is a slack blob and so very difficult to get a clean cut, the internal is super sticky and soupy and stretches with the safety razor. Even if I get a cut, it opens up quickly to a flat scar. I tried under-proofing to see if that was the reason for this bit but that didn't change a thing.

Mix:

  • 70g 100% Levain (mix of AP, Whole Wheat and Rye)

  • 300g Water

  • 310g Bread Flour (King Arthur)

  • 80g Whole Wheat Flour (King Arthur)

  • 10-20g Dark Rye (Bob's)

  • 8g Diamond Crystal Kosher Salt

Method:

  • Autolyse

  • Knead for 5 mins or so

  • Stretch and fold every 30 mins for three hours

  • Preshape and rest for 30 mins

  • Shape using the Tartine structured fold

  • Plop into colander with rice flour for a three hour rise

  • 500F Preheat - 20 min covered bake at 480 - 20 min open bake at 460

I don't know what reddit did to that video, here's a link

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j4zgjg9z5fh3wet/VID_20200715_172116~2.mp4?dl=0

 

Proofed, poking before baking

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6h4rzruaseqfyk8/VID_20200716_002300.mp4?dl=0

 

Watch me butcher this bread while scoring, also see how its basically spilling out and flattening once out of the banetton

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l7mb334dxzdzdsh/VID_20200716_005831.mp4?dl=0

texas_loafer's picture
texas_loafer

your scale is correct?

phaz's picture
phaz

It is hard to really tell from the video, but I'm not seeing any gluten, or poorly formed (weak) gluten. Not that 4 hrs is enough to get good gluten, but there should be a enough there to hold the dough together better than what I see in the clip. If all else is equal, I'm going to have to ask about the starter - feed schedule and ratios - storage temps - flour types - whatever else you can think of. Whatever it is, it's most likely nothing serious, it rarely is. 

icantbakeatall's picture
icantbakeatall

You think 4 hours isnt enough to get good gluten development? I'm really new at this but have seen several recipes with only a 3 hour or so bulk ferment. It always seemed too low to me but I dont really know what to look for since i'm so new! Thanks for the help!

phaz's picture
phaz

You can make bread in 4 hrs, but it's far from ideal without some mechanical manipulation of the dough ie. kneading or rising - which is an excellent form of kneading. As bubbles form they are stretching the dough at a micro level - and that's kneading - the easy way. With commercial yeast, you can get 2 good rises in 4 hrs, not usually the case with sourdough as the natural yeast is a bit slower than commercial. So, if ya want bread quick, you have to develope gluten quick, and ya do that by kneading. I can't remember this whole thread, but I suggested an easy test to someone in a similar situation (may have been you) - toss in the fridge overnight to give more time to develope gluten and flavor. Give it a shot, you might be surprised by the results. Enjoy!

whatsnewsisyphus's picture
whatsnewsisyphus

To be clear, this is 1hr auotlyse, 3hr bulk, 30 min rest, 3 hr proof for a total of 7.5 hours with initial kneading and subsequent folding. 

phaz's picture
phaz

I missed this one, 7.5 hrs, not enough for good gluten formation, but again, dough shouldn't react the way it is. I asked for starter info and don't see anything about it. With the change in time (that I just noticed) I believe there may be something going on with the starter. A starter can interfere with gluten in certain instances, this may be 1 of them. More info is gooder info!

whatsnewsisyphus's picture
whatsnewsisyphus

Its a well established starter that lives in the fridge and gets fed every 4 days or so a mix of ap, whole what flours with a touch of dark rye. 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Did you build a fresh levain for the bake (and at what feeding ratio?), or did you add 70 g of 1/2/3/4-day old starter?

whatsnewsisyphus's picture
whatsnewsisyphus

Fresh levain, probably about 10-15 grams of starter, 100% hydration feed to build 80 grams or so. 7-8 hours

whatsnewsisyphus's picture
whatsnewsisyphus

My scale is accurate, I tested against others and water volumes.

To clarify, the video is not the end of development, that is just the end of the first five minutes of kneading. By the end of stretch and folds and bulk fermentation it holds together alright and I can certainly form a gluten cover. I'll take a video when I get it out of the rising basket.

I was asking why the dough goes from supple at the end of autolyze to much more liquid once you start kneading. I get the same issue if I try to knead in the kitchenaid.

texas_loafer's picture
texas_loafer

Is large grain. May be cutting the gluten until it dissolves. Try holding back some water and dissolve it before adding or use fine salt

whatsnewsisyphus's picture
whatsnewsisyphus

I tried dissolving it to the same effect. I also had thought about that but then saw several other recipes use the same specific salt and scratched that possibility altogether. (it is the only salt I keep in the house anyhow)

texas_loafer's picture
texas_loafer

Is large grain. May be cutting the gluten until it dissolves. Try holding back some water and dissolve it before adding or use fine salt

whatsnewsisyphus's picture
whatsnewsisyphus

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

If the ambient temps have been rising, you might want to cut back on hydration and/or get the salt in early with the levain. If that doesnt help try crushing a calcium tablet into the water.

whatsnewsisyphus's picture
whatsnewsisyphus

Hmm I do filter my water so it could be softer than most. I'll try cutting down water a bit, how much should I cut it down by?

Mr Immortal's picture
Mr Immortal

I have not had this issue, and I’ve been using water from my reverse osmosis/de-ioinizing filter, which removes absolutely every trace of mineral content from the water.  While I’m starting to think that my dough could benefit from some added calcium, non of my mixes have turned to soup.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

reducing hydration from 75% would be to try and slow fermentation.  Hold back a tablespoon or two.

Temperature. Just a few degrees can have a big effect.  The loaf crust looks a little overproofed to me.  Can also try reducing the amount of starter or use the starter before it peaks.  Try just one tweak at a time and note the differences.

whatsnewsisyphus's picture
whatsnewsisyphus

How can I tell over proofing from over bulk fermentation? Ill try using a younger levain and reduce proofing time. I find shaping very difficult if I go by the recipes that suggest very lightly flouring the surface as the dough tends to be wet and sticky. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

... young levain AND reducing proofing time.  Pick one. A young levain will automatically slow down fermentation so no need to shorten it.  

Have you a bench scraper?  Its a great help for your dominant hand with sticky doughs. 

whatsnewsisyphus's picture
whatsnewsisyphus

I do have a scraper, it sticks to that too unless I liberally flour the scraper before turning :) how should I be controlling the bulk fermentation in all of this? Volume? Surface Quality? 

phaz's picture
phaz

Back to gluten development. Formation of gluten will "use" up water. What do ya mean use? This is how gluten works - 2 proteins in wheat flour, when in the presence of water, will bond together with the water thereby making it unavailable for anything else (excess water = sticky). As gluten developes (forms) the dough becomes less sticky cuz there's less water to make it so. If ya don't have gluten, you just have flour suspended in water, and it will be sticky instead of tacky (we want tacky - sticky sticks and doesn't release, tacky sticks but releases). If a dough has well developed gluten, you'll need little to no flour for shaping - the dough would be tacky, not sticky.

How to tell over /proof/ferment - fortunately it's the same for both as basically the same processes are happening between bugs and food. Most look for a certain % of rise - doubles, rises by 30%, or whatever (I'd say most go for around a 50% rise, but don't hold me to that). That's the easiest way to go.

alpaca's picture
alpaca

I've got a few questions which might help get to the bottom of this...

  1. Which of the ingredients do you include in the autolyse?
  2. How thoroughly do you mix these together?
  3. After the autolyse, how thoroughly do you mix in the remaining ingredients, before you start kneading?
whatsnewsisyphus's picture
whatsnewsisyphus

1) Autolyse takes everything but the salt and 5 grams of water
2) They are rather thoroughly mixed
3) I squish and twist numerous times quite a few times before kneading.

alpaca's picture
alpaca

In my experience, this soupy stage is a normal occurrence when making dough with a wet levain like this. The point at which it occurs depends on how much you mix/knead and when. I suspect that if you mixed and kneaded more before your autolyse, you'd go through the soupy stage then.

My recipe is a little different - I autolyse just the flour and water, then add the levain afterwards and mix in the Kitchenaid - but I see a similar soupy stage as the levain is mixed in.

A side note is for it to be an autolyse in the strict sense, you shouldn't include the levain. It's more like a head start on the bulk ferment. (Sourdough recipes with an autolyse sometimes call for the levain to be included because it would be too dry otherwise, but there's more than enough water in your recipe). 

whatsnewsisyphus's picture
whatsnewsisyphus

Thank you for the detailed note. I guess my question is, does that mean you cant move beyond this stage without waiting? When I tried mixing using a kitchenaid it never came together as a coherent ball with elasticity. Given that, how would you know that you kneaded enough?.

alpaca's picture
alpaca

I don't think you have to wait. You can keep mixing or kneading until it's no longer soupy. This is what I do, and, at least for me, the dough always eventually comes together. It can take 9-15 mins on the lowest speed as the Kitchenaid dough hook is very inefficient.

However, my hydration (73%) is lower than yours, so it's a less challenging dough. In general, reducing the hydration, as mini suggested above, is a common suggestion to people having trouble with slack dough that won't shape or score well.