The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Tartine Approach - No Oven Spring

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

Tartine Approach - No Oven Spring

Oven Spring Help!!

Hi All! I’ve been working with the Tartine method and following the ratio of ingredients exactly. With that said, I’m not getting much, if any oven spring. Any help would be greatly appreciated! 

My process was, as follows:

Leaven 7:55 pm —> 6:45 (67 degrees in house) —> passed float test

 

First mix 7 am (water 80.4 deg)

Autolyse 7:08 —> 7:48 (71 deg)

Water (80.1) and salt

BF 7:57 am (78 deg) —> 11:45

Initial shape/bench rest 11:50 —> 12:10

12:15 final proof

      - 1 room temp (78 deg)

           - 2:30 final proof 

           - oven at 460 (20/40)

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

I should mention I did 6 S&F during bulk ferment and it was baked in a lodge cast iron Dutch oven 

ciabatta's picture
ciabatta

some questions

Times look alright.

What kind of flour?  

how did the dough feel after mix and each stretch and fold?  did you feel the gluten developing?

did dough pass window pane test after stretch and folds?  depending on flour, you may only need 3 or 4.

how did dough feel during scoring?

how long did you preheat dutch oven?

-James

 

 

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622
  1. Pillsbury bread flour 
  2. dough felt billowy at the end of the S&F. Heavy at the beginning and billowy at the end.
  3. i did the windowpane test at the end of the S&F and it truly looked the best of any of my gluten development since I started baking SD. Very large window without the dough tearing.
  4. I’m not sure what you mean about how the dough felt during scoring but I was able to score it without sawing the blade back and forth. 

  5. I preheat oven for about 40 min to get to 499 (the “5” on our oven doesn’t work). DO was inside during preheat. 

thanks for the input so far!

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

Also one thing I forgot to mention, the fermentation during BF led to a very billowy dough that exceeded the windowpane test but, I don’t think it rose the 20-30% recommended by Tartine in the book. Would this be a starter/leaven issue?

ciabatta's picture
ciabatta

It always could be a number of things and not easiest to diagnosis.  But my guess is that your starter is not strong enough.  Is it a relatively young starter culture?  there are a number of things in there that can make bubbles but wild yeast is the one that will make loads of bubbles when heated.  Keep feeding it and it will get there.

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

I’ve maintained the starter for about 2 months now. It gets fed once a day 50/50 whole wheat/bread flour and water equal parts.

 

Should I bump it to 2x per day?

gerryp123's picture
gerryp123

Could be that final shaping leaves some open seams and/or does nor produce an encompassing "skin".  Should be like a "pressure cooker" inside your DO pressure cooker.  Not the first place I'd look for the cause of the no-rise problem, but definitely a factor.

Also, I've been placing loaf in (hot) DO immediately after slashing, at end of cold-ferment.  (No cool-down-to-room-temperature interval.)  Seems to help oven spring and also thickens crust. 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Welcome to TFL!

---

A photo of the crumb would help.

---

You lost me after the initital shape and bench rest.  Could you please clarify what you did after that? How long at room temp, how long in fridge, then any more at room temp?

(Newbies come here and say "Tartine method", but that is not specific enough, since a zillion blogs and videos all have variations. Plus there are two official "Tartine" bread books, with dozens of formulas.) 

--

Your loaf does look good!

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

Hi Totally understand about Tartine being vague. I should’ve said the Tartine method from Chad’s first book - 900g bread flour; 100 whole-wheat; 75% hydration; 20g salt; 200g leaven.

After the initial shape and bench rest for 25 min, I did the final shaping and let it final proof in a banneton at room temperature for 2.5 hours @78 degrees (poke test was successful). Then into the preheated Dutch oven @500, scored it, and into the oven. 

I also added a picture of the crumb. Thanks for the help!

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

1. Your crumb is inthat grey area, where I get confused about over/under fermented, versus other issues.  Let's see what some of the old timers say.  (But my secret guess is over-fermented.)

2. it could be just a tad too wet, over-hydrated.

3. Did you also do the final folding right before the final shaping, in order to pat out any big bubbles?

--

Can you confirm that your levain build is with the 50/50 blend of white and WW flour?

Does your bag of Pillsbury bread flour say bleached or unbleached;  bromated or unbromated?  Is potassium bromate in the ingredient list?

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

Hi,

1) my leaven is 50/50 WW/BF

2) I just noticed the bread flour is “enriched” and very likely bleached. 

3) it doesn’t clarify whether it is bromated or unbromated and potassium bromate is not an ingredient.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Nearly all US commercially milled retail white flour is enriched, so no problem there.

Pillsbury flour would say bleached on the bag if it was.

If the more experienced users don't chime in before you bake your next loaf, just try a few percentage points less hydration, and that may help with a tighter skin or "gluten cloak", and see if that moves things in the right direction.

The high hydration of Robertson's formulas are a challenge for most of us.

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

I will give it a try. After stewing on this, my thought was I caught my leaven on the way down (evidenced by dough not rising 20-30% during bulk fermentation)? Does that seem plausible or am I grasping at straws at this point?

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Let's see what ciabatta and gerryp think after seeing the crumb.  

i'm still leaning towards over-fermented and deflated a bit, and maybe over-hydrated, but I'm willing to be shown to be wrong on that.

Did the TFL system reduce the resolution of your photo?  If you could replace that photo with one of higher res, that might help with the over/under diagnosis.

Did the ovenight leaven rise about 20% ?

The way the loaf spread out at the score lines, but did not seem to "bloom", seems to indicate it was too slack, or maybe the score went too deep.

Were there any problems with loading the dough from the banneton to the DO?   

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

Correct - the system lowered the resolution sadly. Is this any better?



The overnight leaven definitely rose but I’m not sure how much. I stupidly mixed it in a small mixing bowl without flat sides so I couldn’t appreciate the rise. 

Also, no issue getting the dough from the banneton to the DO. I did transfer it to parchment first, scored, and then lifted it into the DO immediately (all within about 15-30 seconds.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Right before the final shape, did you do those 1/3 letter folds, near side, left side, right side, far side?   And pat out any large bubbles?

--

If your overnight leaven was by-the-book, 1 tablespoon mature starter plus 200 g 50/50 flour plus 200 g water, that should be on the money.

You said the dough was billowy after a few S&Fs, but didn't rise at least 20% in Bulk Ferment.  I'm wonderng if it just didn't hold gas well.

Were there any additions or substitutions in the ingredients?

--

Also, this may sound weird, but please describe your water.  Household "water conditioner" (the kind you add salt to) ?  City water with a lot of chlorine?

--

After all, it could still be a weak starter that made a weak levain, and it didn't bulk ferment enough, or didn't proof enough, but I keep thinking there's something else going on.

Have you made good loaves wtih this starter and this Pillsbury flour before?

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

I did the 1/3 folds but it’s possible my technique wasn’t fantastic.

That’s correct about the billowy dough after stretch and folds but no 20-30% rise. Any reason why it wouldn’t hold gas well?

there were no additional ingredients. It was 100% by the book. The water was just plain tap water (I live in the County).

And no I haven’t had success with a good loaf yet. They typically turn out like the pictures. But all I’ve used is that Pillsbury bread flour. I just ran out and found KA unbleached bread flour so I will use that with Bob’s Red Mill WW moving forward.

 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

"The water was just plain tap water (I live in the County)."

Thanks, but I was looking for more info. ("in the County" doesn't mean anything to me.)

Are you on a city/municipal supplied water system, or do you have your own well?

Regardless of where your tap water comes from, does your house/apartment have the type of water conditioner that you have to add salt to?  If it does, does the tap where you take your baking water from "bypass" the water conditioner?  (It should.)  

If your tap water comes from a municipal water plant, if they have a website, they might publish info on chlorine and chloramine. 

If.... your water goes through a household "water conditioner" (and by that, I do not mean just a filter or a R.O. filter) and you cannot bypass it, then you'll be better off with bottled spring water.  

If ... your tap water comes from a well at your house, and that water has excess minerals (really "hard"), then bottled spring water may be better for bread baking.

If... your municipal-suppplied water has chlorine, then like ciabatta says, just let it sit out or aerate it.

If... your municipal-supplied water has chloramine, then you'll need bottled spring water.

--

The  water is most likely _not_ a problem here, unless it has chloramines, or is going through a household water-conditioner.  So I'm just trying to be thorough by covering all the bases.

--

(In my limited tests, bottled "spring water" bakes better than bottled "purified water.")

 

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

From my County website “ If needed, additional chlorine is added to the finished water that leaves the water plants. Low levels of chlorine (approximately 0.2 to 1.0 part per million) must be maintained in the distribution systems pipes and home plumbing to prevent the growth of microorganisms.”

No chloramine in the water and no water conditioner with salt. 

I will try what Ciabatta said and leave the water out/aerate it. 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

"But all I’ve used is that Pillsbury bread flour. I just ran out and found KA unbleached bread flour so I will use that with Bob’s Red Mill WW moving forward."

KA BF will bake up differently than Pillsbury.  So it will be a new ball game.   So sure to include pics.

Don't give up the faith. You're on a good track.

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

I’ll come back after I bake another loaf this week. Thanks for the help!

Debbiekap's picture
Debbiekap

I use the same recipe, although lately have been using the process from Fullproof baking. Recently started getting much better oven spring after feeding my starter more consistently every 12 hours using slightly more flour ( 90% bread and 10% rye). I think the warm weather has helped too.

ciabatta's picture
ciabatta

I agree that overproof is more likely than underproof.  do you sit your tap water out for a bit to clear off any chlorine?  my tap water is pretty bad, i have to do that.  I have a RO filter systems now, but i still like to just leave a big jug of water out for baking.  a really good billowy dough will feel like there are lots of air pockets in there and jiggles after final shaping.  when you score it deep, you'll see cross sections of air pockets.  I doesnt always have to be like that to get good spring, but it always gives good spring if it's like that.  it should feel like there's still a lot of bounce/life left in it to expand though. if it's just flat and droopy, then it might be overproofed.

 

ciabatta's picture
ciabatta

this is what I like to see 

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

This is helpful!

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

How deep are those scores? About 1/2-3/4 an inch?

ciabatta's picture
ciabatta

about 1/2 inch i'd say.   for higher hydration dough, you may not see the bubble holes like that. or maybe just as you cut it.

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

Hi,

I haven’t left our water before but I will start. How long does it need to be left out for to clear off chlorine?

Also, the dough seemed billowy after BF. My BF went for a little under 4 hours at 78 deg which seemed in line with Tartine recommendations but i live in Maryland and it can be humid here. I also checked the dough for a windowpane test at 3:15 into the BF and the windowpane wasn’t quite there yet. That’s why I kept it for the total 3:45 of BF. 

I appreciate the help!

ciabatta's picture
ciabatta

sit out tab water for at least an hour. if you dont have an hour, get two container and pour the water from one to the other and back and forth 5, 6 times, making lots of air in there to aerate it.

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

Thanks - I’ll try this 

ciabatta's picture
ciabatta
clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

This is a much deeper cut than I did. I likely scored only a 1/4 inch at most. Should I be aiming for closer to 1/2 inch?

ciabatta's picture
ciabatta

1/2 inch to 3/4 inch

 

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

I have a 72% hydration proofing in the fridge overnight. I did the exact same conditions/measurements as before but cut the BF back from 3 hours 48 min to 2 hours 35 min. 

I will score and bake tomorrow morning. 

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

Here is the second attempt with less BF (indicated below). Definitely came out better. Would you say underproofed or just right? Additional pics to follow...

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622
clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622
idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

something weird is going on, and I can't put my finger on it.

Could you please explain your oven and baking setup?  Gas, electric, convection, where the heating elements are, etc.

The big hole in the exact center seems odd, and I'm just guessing here, like maybe an air pocket got folded in, or the banneton was set upon something with a warm spot in the center.

The crumb is confusing me enough that I can't tell if it's underproofed, or overproofed, or part is under and part is over.   Time to call in better helpers with more experience.

The cone-shaped loaf is something I haven't seen before either.

There could even be a mixing, hydration, or folding issue.

--

Let's cover this base, just in case.   Sometimes there is misunderstanding when using Robertson's method.  Please confirm that this is your understanding and procedure:  In his system, the starter and the levain are two separate things.  The night before, you take one tablespoon of starter out of the starter jar, and you make a separate thing in a separate container.  The one tablespoon of starter is combined with 200 g flour (half white, half WW) and 200 g water.  You're only going to use half of this the next day, so if you want to use only 1/2 tablespoon starter, 100 g flour, and 100 g water, that's okay.  (If it's not okay, then I misunderstand.)  Then this "levain" (not starter) is left overnight, and used as the 200 g levain the next day.

this mixing ratio and time frame ("overnight") is based on 65 F degree ambient temp.  So, it could be that your levain has fermented too much.  Does the overnight levain rise more than the 20% that Robertson mentions?  If so.... then your dough could be overproofed because the levain has over-fermented.

You did say you might have "caught it after it fell" or something like that.  As I understand it, the 20% rise of the overnight levain is not after a higher peaking.  If this needs to be adjusted, I'm not sure what to suggest that would fit into your schedule.

--

Be advised that this "separate levain build" is not universal to all bakers.  Some of us just take stuff out of the starter jar directly and use it as is.  But even then, we refresh or "build up" the starter at some point (even if it is 3 days previously) so as to make sure there is sufficient to have left over starter, and that the starter we use is not too old.

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

I’m happy that it at least got some oven spring.

The oven is electric (not convection). I’m suspicious it isn’t as hot as the gauge is telling me and I have a oven thermometer coming this week so I can test its accuracy. 

what do you mean by the banneton set upon something with a warm spot? 

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

I had made a second loaf with this batch so I will cut into that tomorrow/Monday and I’ll see if that crumb is different

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

The bubble at the peak gives me the idea that the banneton was set on a warm-ish surface, and the peak of the dough (ie, bottom of the banneton in contact with the surface) got the most warmth and fermented more. 

But now, I'm leaning more towards the idea that the overnight levain was either over or under fermented.

I'm just guessing, and grasping at straws, at this point.  I will invite a couple others with much more experience to chime in.

--

Photos of the overnight levain and the dough might help on the next go round, if you have the inclination.  start/end photos of the overnight levain, in a straight walled container (mark the beginning level), and start/end photos of the bulk ferment of the dough (straightwalled container, mark beginning), and start/end photos of the proof in the banneton, and maybe a photo of dough post- scoring on the parchment paper.

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

I did have to stack the banneton on other food in the fridge (not a lot of space available). I didn’t even think that could cause a warm spot and additional fermentation.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

The previous batch was final proofed 2.5 hrs at 78 degrees, no fridge.

This one was in the fridge.  how long?  Was it instead of or in addition to a room temperature proof?  Was it warmed up after the fridge, or baked cold?  

Remember, "times and temperatures are ingredients.

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

I didn’t see the second half of your message before...I did the separate leaven and this time I believe I got it at the correct point. 

My hunch was possibly underproofed because I was so concerned about overproofing and ending up with a pancake loaf again. As for flavor, I thought it tasted “complex” and the crust was crispy. 

The reason I think the oven is not as hot as advertised is baking for 40 minutes leaves a pale golden crust rather than that dark crust Tartine aims for

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

The coloration of the top crust, in addition to the cone shape, makes me curious how it got that way.

Does the parchment go into the DO along with the dough? 

What's the capacity of the DO? (usually quarts)  

What's the inside diameter of the dutch oven?  How tall from inside base to upper lip, not counting the lid?

Are any other objects beside the dough and parchment going inside the dutch oven? 

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

The parchment went into the DO with the bread and one ice cube between the oven and parchment (didn’t come in contact with the bread). 

Also, the DO is 5qt. 

As for proofing, it proofed for 12 hours in the fridge and 10 minutes out of the fridge right before baking. 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

"The parchment went into the DO with the bread and one ice cube between the oven and parchment (didn’t come in contact with the bread). "

There we go.  That's why I ask all these seemingly weird questions.  The "culprit" (or one of them) is eventually found.

The ice cube is likely contributing to the funky coloring and maybe the cone shape.  Ice cubes are not needed in a dutch oven.  I think it hurt in this case.  And likely also contributed to the over-hydrated look.  It definitely cools the DO down, more than most people realize.  So your oven thermostat might not be off very far, after all.

(There are narrow circumstances where they can help, but generally not in a D.O.)

Is your Lodge cast iron dutch oven enameled? inside, outside, both, neither?

Is it the 5 qt Lodge combo cooker?  And if so, are you loading the dough in the deep pot or on the lid?  If it is the combo cooker, there is a better way of loading and scoring.

--

re: 12 hrs proof in the fridge, this last bake might be over-proofed, depending on fridge temp.

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

Dutch Oven : Lodge 5 Quart Cast Iron Dutch Oven. Pre-Seasoned Pot with Lid and Dual Loop Handle https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00063RWYI/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_0dpaFbVA6H3FY

that is the DO I’ve been using. it isn’t the combo cooker. Because it is deep, that’s why I’ve been scoring on the parchment and then transferring it.

That is great to know regarding the ice cube. 

As far as retarding in the fridge.... what temperature should I be seeking? My fridge is set at 38 degrees Fahrenheit 

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

This is the 2nd load from the same batch of dough. A bit more consistent crumb?
idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Alrighty.  The better consistency here allows the signs of under-proofing to be seen. 

Was this without an ice cube in the DO?

So, I think I was wrong on the overproofing.  

What do you, and others think?

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

This had an ice cube as well. I was so concerned with overproofing again and having a flat pancake loaf that it’s completely possible that it was a bit underproofed. 

Underproofed would be my best guess. Here is a picture of the loaf, presliced in case it adds anything else to the analysis...

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

So, the above is from the same batch of dough as this:

 

But, what is the time span between when they were baked (ie, additional proofing time) and at what temp was the dough for the 2nd loaf  kept?  I'm unclear if they were baked on the same day, or the following day.

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

The 2nd loaf (picture provided today) was baked from the fridge first. After BF finished at 7 pm it was placed in the fridge until 5:20 am. Taken out for 20 minutes at room temp. while the DO heated, and then baked.

The original loaf I posted (with the large air hole at the top) was baked same day approximately 20 minutes after the first was finished baking. This loaf also was at room temp for 20 minutes. 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

I'm now leaning to under-proofed.

Ciabatta: what say ye?   Are you still following?  

--

Another question:  was there anything else in the oven like a pan, sheet, or baking stone?  If so, what was it's position in relation to the DO?

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

Only other thing in the oven is a baking stone(very bottom rack). The DO is on a shelf about 8 inches higher.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

I have a stone on a lower rack too.  It protects the bottom of the DO from getting too hot from direct radiation, thereby preventing burning the underside of the loaf.

However, it does slow the pre-heating of the DO.  However-2, you are pre-heating to 499, then bake at 460, so that compensates, allowing the DO to catch up in temp some.  

To further compensate for the "shade" provided by the stone, I suggest pre-heating with the DO lid completely off, which allows the hot air to circulate against the inner walls of the DO and lid.

(Sidenote: don't put a cold stone in a hot oven, as the thermal shock can crack it.)

If the underside of your loaves are too dark, you can sprinkle some corn meal or semolina in the DO before loading the dough, and the tiny air pockets it creates between the cast iron and the parchment help insulate the dough.

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

Thanks - the underside of the loaves have been good but I like the tip to preheat lid off 

ciabatta's picture
ciabatta

Sorry, so many topics and messages.. overlooked this thread for a bit.

so, here's my tally- correct me if i'm wrong anywhere:

gluten development seems fine - passed window pane and loaves show gluten strands
oven temperature - seems fine based on color of crust (no burn on bottom, good color on top)
hydration - in the 70ish percentages. seems reasonable
shaping - unknown. i dont see any signs of it in the crumb due to it being a bit dense(?) the overall shape is holding up nicely, but there are very large bubbles in otherwise dense crumb
starter strength - possibly problematic - not getting volume increase after folds in bulk fermentation, limited expansion in oven spring

i'm inclined to say that the starter is not strong enough.  are you confident on the salt portion?  hows the taste of the crumb?  acidic? salty?

still would like to see the scored shaped dough. were you finding the dough to be puffy/jiggly when dividing?

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622

Starter strength was a concern on the first loaves which started the thread but I’m pretty confident it was good for this bake. The dough expanded 20-30% during BF.

Also, very confident on the 20g salt. Crumb has a slight sour note at the end. 

I thought the dough was jiggly when being divided but that is a rather uninformed opinion. I will take a picture of the folded/scored dough for the next bake. 

clintyeastwood622's picture
clintyeastwood622
texas_loafer's picture
texas_loafer

An ice cube or two works well for me.

With ice