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cheese culture sourdough bread experiments

intergalactickungfuoverdrive's picture
intergalacticku...

cheese culture sourdough bread experiments

i only found one online mention of something similar 

here http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/28972/cheese-starter-culture-sourdough-starter

 

but i decided to try and redo/re-approach my experiments that i tried before.

maybe a year ago, i started trying to add cheese cultures to yeast biga and let them sit a while and keep feeding it; (also, with tribasic calcium phosphate Ca3(PO4)2, just in case it helped)

i was using safs pizza yeast (which i now found out, is why all my bread tasted too yeasty  and terrible, no matter what i did)

 

i experimented with mixing different amounts of biga to pizza yeast dough, to make bread

it would not rise very fast or as much; but when allowed to be fully carmelized, in baking/toasting, and only then; it gained a slight fried cheese taste

 

i continued feeding it through the winter and just letting it kind of age; and i would catch whiffs of the swiss every now and then; or i really thought i did at least.

 

but unfortunately, i let it sit too long into the spring and it got all moldy.

 

i was using cheese cultures from thecheesemaker.com

 

and they were 

•MSA adjunct culture

•Thermophillic C (“Thermophile Type C” from Biena)

•Propionibacteria shermanii (“Propionibacterium 50” from Biena)

•Mesophillic B

i’ll put these all at the bottom

 

So;

so i tried to make something similar using the yeast from the bottom of some beers, instead of instant pizza yeast; but after a day; the flour/water/yeast hadn’t done anything;

 

So i just dumped in the some of the remaining cheese cultures anyway and let it sit for 3 or more days. 

then i added a small amount to a jar, with a real small amount of batter from a feeding the second day of a san francisco sourdough starter.

 

i now have added more cheese cultures to it to maybe rebalance it or give the ones i want a better ratio , but i also added a new mesophilic culture that has a lecconostoc in it (the links at the bottom of the top link , mention it delaying sourdough starting, but it also gives taste)

 

i also added only swiss cheese bacteria, the propionibacterium shermanii with the thermophile C culture to some flour/water; and put a tablespoon of the san francisco sourdough culture that i’m starting, to it.

 

also, there is the plain san francisco sourdough culture 

 

i took some notes here, just so i don’t lose anything if i need to re trace my steps; 

 

 

) empty salt jar, regular rubber band, one coffee filter

  • added about 3/4 to 1 Tbl cheese bacteria mix* to a smidge of some sourdough starter mix , along with 1 Tbl flour and 1 Tbl water
  • •• added ~a heaping 1/8 to a 1/4 tsp propionibacterium shermanii and the same of thermophilic culture C
  • •• and also about a 1/4 tsp of flora danica mesophilic culture
  • •• added 2 or 3 Tbl water and flour

*this was from capt lawrence 6.5% beer yeast with flour and water and then after a day of nothing, MSA adjunct culture was added along with thermophile C, mesophile B (? i think it was B) and propionibacterium shermanii; it didn’t get as much shermanii as the other experiment next to it which i thought smelled more swissy after a day but was with loganitas maximus yeast which i figured would be bad tasting, so i threw it out. this one smelled more cheddary but not, more of something else but not swissy.

 

 

) mason jar, blue rubber band, one coffee filter

•san francisco sourdough culture

•1 Tbl flour , 1Tbl water

sat for 24 or 48 hour, dried out a little

••added 2 Tbl flour and about 3 Tbl water instead of two

 

 

) mason jar, regular rubber band, two coffee filter

• added ~a heaping 1/8 to a 1/4 tsp propionibacterium shermanii and the same of thermophilic culture C

•and also added 1 tsp of the sourdough mix from above

•added 1 Tbl flour and water or maybe two

 

 

 

 

if it turns out nice; i’ll have notes;

 

 

i also got some beer yeast to try and make a sourdough culture with, with the cheese cultures. it is a •“Wyeast 1968 London ESB Ale” yeast and i hope i can get it to do it’s own culture or mix it with the san francisco sourdough; to get the diacetyl, so it is buttery.

i think it is a decently fast fermenter, so it seemed it could be alright for a bread

 

(i also want to see if i can make real butterbeer like the idea in harry potter, slightly sweet, if the malt is just right, and hopefully just enough diacetyl)

 

there’s also a yeast called “Omega Yeast 212 BRING ON DA FUNK”, i’m curious about trying to make a sourdough with.

 

i am kind of just improvising as i go; so hopefully i get something good

 

 

 cultures:

 

+Flora Danica Mesophilic Culture

 

  • (LMC) Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris
  • (LLC) Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris
  • (LL) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
  • (LLD) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis biovar diacetylactis

+Biena Thermophile Type C Culture

  • (ST) Streptococcus thermophilus
  • (LH) Lactobacillus helveticus

+Biena Mesophile Aroma Culture Type B

Mesophile Aroma Culture Type B is comprised of various bacterial strains such as Lactococcus Lactis, subspecies Lactis; Lactococcus Lactis, subspecies Diacetylactis; Lactococcus Lactis, subspecies Cremoris; and Leuconostoc Mesenteroides, subspecies Cremoris.

 

+ Biena Propionibacteria Shermanii

 

Propionibacteria freudenreichii subsp. shermanii

whoot whoot

 

 +Choozit MVA Adjunct Culture, MVA LY0 10D

 

Staphylococcus xylosus II

 

 

 at the time of adding these strain names; i realized the Meso B culture had leuconostoc in it; which would be holding back yeast expression, even before i added the flora danica one that also has it. i want all the flavors though, so i don’t know if it co-exists or is dropped out as the next “torch” is passed through bacterial stages; before yeast can express. i hope it works out, like san franscisco sourdough, and the cultures contribute and that they aren’t out competed or at a lower torch tier, to add to flavor complexity in a final bread rise of 12-24 hour, where the bacteria (i’m guessing) expresses its products (but also, cheese has to age to get the real deal; so my original idea was to let the biga age with barely any added feeding; to keep it concentrated; but mainly let it hit a different chemical production zone; meanwhile keeping it maybe resilient enough to fend off mold at low temperature, or done in a way that cheese is done, however, to keep the infections out; like a tight sealed container instead of wax , and wine cooler/fridge temperatures. it would by no means be efficient; but it could be a great way to make cheezy bread without dairy (the actual feed stock for the cultures are milk, unfortunately (i’m vegan); and it is unfortunately the only option for the cell lines at the moment)

 

 

Comments

intergalactickungfuoverdrive's picture
intergalacticku...

i went to feed the cultures 1/4 cup flour and water today, but had waited 36 hours; and the plain san francisco sourdough culture had mild in it.

they are near houseplant soil; and that one had only one coffee filter over the top; so there were small holes.

 

A) the thermophile C, propionibacterium shermanii one seems fine; and smells cheesy.

B) i transferred the one in the salt jars, that has all the cultures, into full size mason jar, with a tablespoon and maybe a quarter or third of the  mixed goop from what i’ll call A now (this also got the 1/4 cup flour and water added, but was runny, so i added another 1/4 cup flour. it smells real cheesy.

intergalactickungfuoverdrive's picture
intergalacticku...

after about 8-12 hours, i

fed A) a 1/3 cup flour and water

fed B) a 1/4 cup flour and water

intergalactickungfuoverdrive's picture
intergalacticku...

about 8 hours ago, i fed A and B, with 1 Tablespoon dlour and water each. i split B into two jars B’ and B’’

i juggled the jars, pouring into a fresh one, and cleaning the pouring jar; so, now i have 3 fresh poured jars, stirred nice, with no batter on the walls

 

i tried taking pictures; but as you may see; there are bubbles in the first, and no bubbles in the second. nothing bad, just the observations

it (the B jars) smell so nice and cheesy/buttery

profintraining's picture
profintraining

Hi Intergalactic,

I'm quite curious to see how your experiments turn out. I don't know anything about making cheese, but perhaps there is something in milk that the cheese cultures need to grow (like how wheat sourdough starter doesn't like to eat corn flour) that you could replace with a vegan alternative? Maybe add some kind of sugar/fat/protein to the mix?

On the other hand, I've gotten quite a cheesy taste making sourdough crackers when I added two bagels' worth of dough from Quantum's sourdough bagels recipe that I'd forgotten in the back of the fridge for a week:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/45326/sourdough-bagels-recipe 

 

That batch of crackers actually tastes cheesier than the batch I folded parmesan into!

 

intergalactickungfuoverdrive's picture
intergalacticku...

i was too late to the store, to get pineapple juice; so i decided to try something different.

someone on here tried the pineapple juice solution with lemon juice (but i think it was an actual lemon, and a little water. no presevatives) and it worked;

so i decided to try a test;

i took about 3.5, 4 or 4.5 (not sure) gloopy tablespoons (combined) of A and B’ , i added 5 tablespoons of flour (i later needed to add 2 more; so 7)

i separated it in half and i added 37 mL (2 1/2 Tablespoon) of lemon juice (i filtered through 2 coffee filters, and boiled a little, then cooled) to one half

and the other; muhahahahahaha , i added 37 mL of what i diluted/calculated to be 3.5 pH, reagent grade sulfuric acid to the other half. maybe it will make negative effect (like vinegar did to debra wink’s tests)

maybe it will make nasty stanky hydrogen sulfide gas or thiols / mercaptans which i believe debra said complicate/retard sourdough growth.

maybe it will work ok; but the pH should be fine. the Normality of the acid was 1 N , which is 1/2 M, Molarity.

so i calculated the grams in a liter and how many i needed for stock of a pH solution; by solving -log(x)=3.5 on free calculations on the wolfram alpha website, to get the x number, which is the Molarity of Hydrogen+ ions in the solution for a 3.5 pH solution. (sulfuric acid has 2 H+ per molecule which is why N is double M; and, is a strong acid which fully dissolves, unlike weak acids which are more difficult to calculate)

so basically i got a 3.51 mL acid to 97 mL water calculation; and used 8 mL acid in 266 mL water to make a stock solution of about 3.5 pH acid.

it’s all sloppy to me, because the density could have changed and i didn’t measure; and the temperatures of the acid and cold water were not identical; and the 1N acid has been sitting for years on a dispenser that has a less than airtight (likely and due to the characteristics of the material itself) PTFE seal; and, may have absorbed room humidity, weakening it.

but i like this, i hope it doesn’t stink

the leuconostoc has likely made thwarting compounds like debra wink has said they do; and so even with the low pH it may take a while; but in the B’ and B’’ jars, there looks to be some small bubbles today after not feeding still, so it is hopefully starting to be another bacteria pH tier or the yeast. unfortunately the A jar looks like it’s doing nothing, so i hope the mold won’t set in. i am guessing that leuconostoc was in the flour like debra has said; and i didn’t start everything on dry malt extract; which is what i have been thinking ? about

intergalactickungfuoverdrive's picture
intergalacticku...

so, an idea i was thinking around about is; that,

i could take my thermophile C culture, which makes what the P. shermanii (swiss cheese) bacteria needs; and combine the two in pasteurized/sterilized DME (dry malt extract), and incubate at the temperature that swiss is made at, so mesophilic bacteria can’t compete; then i add that with pineapple juice to flour/water and outcompete leuconostoc in the flour.

so that would be one culture jar to try and keep alive,

then i could do the same, at mesophilic temperatures for the mesophilic B and flora danica cultures; which could culture another starter; presumably without pineapple juice, but also one with; to bring out the mesophilic (because the leuconostoc mesenteroides var cremoris, makes buttery diacetyl, but the mesophilic stuff must be doing it’s thing in cheese at a later point; unless they really can coexist at the leuconostoc pH or visa versa)

 

 

intergalactickungfuoverdrive's picture
intergalacticku...

then, also, there is the MVA adjunct culture, the staphylococcus xylossus II; which i’m not sure where to add, in both maybe; but good to have “controls” without it; idk, but i could tinker.

and then there is the Wyeast London ESB 1968 Ale yeast, which produces buttery diacetyl at low fermentation temperatures, and is a relatively fast fermenter; to use as the bread yeast; and also as an experiment in sourdough starter making, with the thermophile C, P. shermanii and MVA adjunct established cultures.

unless lactobacillus sanfranciscisensis makes good aged cheese; it would seem the sour bit would be contributed by any good lacto culture; as long as the yeast can function at the lower pH or the lacto could function at a higher pH and not be outcompeted

 

so that’s what i’m wondering about; at least keeping mono-ish cultures going, in dough, and feed/aging them slowly, and keeping stock of jars that get fed and age and bring to the front; so they doint spoil hopefully, but also the age and concentrate flavor compounds over a long period; so as some is taken out; it is re-fed at a higher level; like a reset, and goes to the back, while the  next ones come forward and it all rotates. i hope the mild won’t destroy it though, which is my worry. that and the phages/viruses that attack bacteria.

 

then the bread would consist of a yeast dough mix; like the london ale; or a sourdough starter (maybe made from london ale :D ) and/or the rest of the dough that would be added to a sourdough loaf build

so basically just whatever it would take to make a loaf of dry yeast or sourdough; and let it start out colonizing first

and, then add the flavor pastes of the cheese bacteria aged ferments; and get the consistency right i guess. one of those dough mixers would mesh the stiffer yeast/sourbread dough that has high colonization, with the pasty cheese cultures; with salt i guess;

and the pH thing might be needed even then; so the yeast aren’t thwarted (but hopefully pre colonization helps). so maybe citric acid (or pineapple juice) needs to be added to keep leuconostoc in check (unless a 3x rise is acceptable) if it needs to be at all.

and let proof in the pan, so no messing with it’s delicate structure would happen;

and bake

 

i guess it’s generally around there and some fine tuning would turn it out just fine; at least i hope. the best rise temp for the london ale is a low one though, maybe 70 or under, so it seems a little tricky, but i am hopefull there is a way or a trick

 

maybe some of you are better equipped to do this than i am with my current living situation, and maybe beat me to it ;)

intergalactickungfuoverdrive's picture
intergalacticku...

i remember reading that citrate was used for diacetyl production in either yeast or leuconostoc, so i have to look again; but that could be a good reason for citric acid in the thing.

there was also a pathway that used valine or was on it’s way to valine, that caused diacetyl in the same or the other; i forgot, but i didn’t get a good explanation and it seemed adding straight valine would not do it.

i don’t know if leuconostoc also makes other favorable compounds for the other lactos eventually or what; maybe they still coexist but at a lesser concentration  ? i didn’t get through all of the posts by debra wink on her two pineapple solution threads; but i do know that leuconostoc mesenteroides var mesenteroides and leuconostoc mesenteroides var cremoris are used for butter taste in cheeses; but, also they are combined with lactic acid bacterias

so if any flavor compound from the leuconostoc remains in the cheese product; you can guess what i mean,

like;

the pH lets one still coexist 

or the diacetyl/flavor products from the leuconostoc are not consumed by the second stage bacteria (unlike english ales, which consume the diacetyl in “diacetyl rests” when left at highet temperatures towards the end of fermentation)

so if the pH in cheese is lower after curd/whey separation, then that leaves me wondering what’s going on in that less hydrated, questionable but maybe not as acidic curd part, which turns to cheese. if the pH isn’t super low, then the leuconostoc would seem to dominate; so, it seems complex, and it’s pretty interesting to me.

i lost my train of thought here, something though about amino acids, enzymes and biological product precursors being the way paver/co-existence modifiers that bring cheese aging together maybe. i “know” P. shermanii (swiss cheese, the most important thing for me here) needs stuff from something helveticus (which is in the thermophile C besides the something thermophilis, so if it is out competed by mesophilic stuff, then swiss couldn’t take off without yeast, other bacto feed or reagent addition of that component) 

intergalactickungfuoverdrive's picture
intergalacticku...

the cultures may though need to be commixed when aging, at least some of them; or supplemented regularly with specific amino acids, peptone and other compounds 

 

some of what i could turn up is:

 

•the pdf, “Diacetyl Time Line - White Labs”

 

https://www.whitelabs.com/sites/default/files/Diacetyl_Time_Line.pdf

 

i got something wrong, it seems yeast ferment temperatures favor more diacetyl production (by chemical reactions of leaked yeast stuff. not by yeast or bacto or enzymes) at higher temperatures (such as bread making at 70+ degrees F) ; it is also the higher temperatures of the resting period that gobble up the diacetyl  

 

good data here mentions, 

 

“ After yeast is pitched into beer, the yeast undergo a lag phase, followed by a phase of very rapid growth called the exponential growth phase. During both the lag and exponential phase, yeast build amino acids, proteins, and other cell components. Most of these components do not make the flavor of the beer, but the various pathways produce individual compounds that leak out of the cell to effect beer flavor. One of the amino acids produced by yeast is valine. An intermediate compound in valine production is acetolactate (Fig. 3). Not all of the acetolactate produced eventually becomes valine, some will leak out of the cell and into the beer. This acetolactate is then chemically (not enzymaticly) converted to diacetyl in the beer. The chemical reaction is an oxidation, and high fermentation temperatures favor this reaction. Other factors that will increase diacetyl production in this phase are insufficient nutrients (i.e. the amino acid valine), which forces yeast to manufacture their own. For example, the more valine yeast produce, the more acetolacate intermediate is required, and hence the more diacetyl made. There is a strain specific phenomena here, because given the same conditions, different strains will produce different levels of diacetyl.

 

 As yeast slow down in fermentation, they enter what is known as the stationary phase.

where beer undergoes a maturation process to develop the correct balance of flavors. One of the key elements of maturation is diacetyl reduction. Not only do yeast produce the precursor to diacetyl, they also consume the diacetyl produced, and enzymaticly reduce it. Yeast reabsorb diacetyl and convert it to acetoin and subsequently to 2,3-butanediol

 

 

Both acetoin and 2,3-butanediol can escape the cell, but neither contribute much in terms of flavor given their high flavor threshold.

It is important to provide sufficient maturation time for diacetyl reduction, commonly known as a "diacetyl rest". Diacetyl reduction is slower at colder temperatures, so it is essential to incorporate the diacetyl rest when making cold fermented lagers. The process is simply to raise the fermentation temperature from lager temperatures (50-55F) to 65-68F for a two day period near the close of the fermentation. Usually the diacetyl rest is begun when the beer is 2 to 5 specific gravity points away from the target terminal gravity. The temperature is then lowered to conditioning temperature following diacetyl reduction. For ale production, the fermentation temperature is usually 65-70F, so temperature modification is not necessary. But the fermentation should still be "rested" at this temperature for two days to ensure proper diacetyl reduction. Many brewers make the mistake to quickly crash the fermentation temperature following terminal gravity. Why not? The beer is done, people are thirsty, and there is no taste of diacetyl in the beer. Even though the diacetyl can't be tasted, however, the beer may contain high levels of the precursor, acetolactate, which can be converted to diacetyl. Once the yeast is removed, there is no way to get rid of the diacetyl. “

 

•also, 2,3-butanediol is a poly alcohol 

 

 

•from wikipedia, about Propionibacterium freudenreichii,

 

  “One discernible feature of this bacterium is that it produces large quantities of propionic and acetic acids. It can ferment sugars and polyhydroxy alcohols, and lactate provided that there are bacteria nearby are producing it by their own fermentative activities (this is known as secondary fermentation). It can also produce iso-valeric,formic, succinic, or lactic acids as well as carbon dioxide (although these are all secreted in lesser amounts than the other substances it produces).[9]”

 

[9] = Patrick, Sheila; McDowell, Andrew (2015). Bergey's Manual of Systematics of Archaea and Bacteria. pp. 1–29. doi:10.1002/9781118960608.gbm00167ISBN 9781118960608.

 

  “When Emmental cheese is being produced, P. freudenreichii ferments lactate to form acetatepropionate, and carbon dioxide (3 C3H6O3 → 2 C2H5CO2 + C2H3O2 + CO2).[1]”

[1] = "A bacterium used in the production of Emmental". Genoscope. 16 January 2008. Archived from the originalon 9 February 2008.

 

 “ The performance and growth of P. freudenreichii is highly dependent on the presence of Lactobacillus helveticus, which provides essential amino acids. The degradation of L. helvecticus releases a variety of amino acids and peptides. While P. freudenreichii has been found to grow even in the absence of L. helvecticus, some strains of the bacteria were observed lysing in the absence of glutaminelysine, or tyrosine.[5] The autolysis of P. freudenreichii has been suggested to contribute further to the flavor of the Emmental cheese. The conditions leading to the autolysis of this bacterium are not well known.[6] “

[6] = Ostlie H (1995). "Autolysis of Dairy Propionibacteria: Growth Studies, Peptidase Activities, and Proline Production". Journal of Dairy Science. 78 (6): 1224–1237. doi:10.3168/jds.S0022-0302(95)76742-X (which i think is free access)

 

 “In contrast to most lactic acid bacteria, this bacterium mainly breaks down lipids, forming free fatty acids. Recent research has focused on possible benefits incurred from consuming P. freudenreichii, which are thought to cleanse the gastrointestinal tract.[2]”

[2] = Cousin FJ, Mater DD, Foligne B, Jan G (2 August 2010). "Dairy propionibacteria as human probiotics: A review of recent evidence" (PDF). Dairy Science & Technology. 91 (1): 1–26. doi:10.1051/dst/2010032

 

 

 

 

 

on the topic of fat/lipids; the MVA adjunct culture (Staphylococcus xylosus II) at thecheesemaker website (not sure if vendor links are tolerated here), reads

“ This adjunct culture helps with aroma development through protein and fat breakdown. This enhances the aroma and texture of cheese, as well as the surface appearance. This strain stimilates lactic cultures and is highly resistant to salt. 

10 dose packet: Usage rate:  2 Doses per 264 gallons(1000 liters) of milk. Adjunct culture for aroma development Tomme-style cheeses, mixed surface flora cheeses. 

 

  • Staphylococcus xylosus II

i don’t know if that then thwarts the P. freudenreichii  var. shermanii a bit, but may help it out anyway.

 

 

also, besides the cancer fighting studies on Propionibacterium freudenreichii , 

the companion bacteria that makes the amino acids and peptides;  Lactobacillus helveticus, has this cool note,

 

 “A 2010 double-blind study published in the British Journal of Nutrition concluded, "L. helveticus R0052 and B. longum R0175 taken in combination display anxiolytic-like activity in rats and beneficial psychological effects in healthy human volunteers," showing statistically-significant lowering of anxiety, depression, and anger in the test subjects, as well as improving problem-solving and lowering cortisol.[1]”

[1] = Messaoudi M, Lalonde R, Violle N, Javelot H, Desor D (Mar 2011). "Assessment of psychotropic-like properties of a probiotic formulation (Lactobacillus helveticus R0052 and Bifidobacterium longum R0175) in rats and human subjects". Br J Nutr. 105 (5): 755–64. doi:10.1017/S0007114510004319PMID 20974015 (also a free access paper, i believe)

intergalactickungfuoverdrive's picture
intergalacticku...

i have checked the cultures and the B’ and B’’ look like they may have gotten a bit more lactic acid or something, layer

they smell more cheesy !

and, A looks about the same, but smells cheesy now !

 here are the pictures, the last three are B’’, B’ and A , in that order

AND both, lemon juice and sulfuric acid jars have started cranking out bubbles, and rose !!! whooo

 

i think i should maybe feed A, B’, B’’ a little, 1 Tbl flour and water each sometime today, and maybe feed the lemon juice and sulfuric acid ones a little, tomorrow or something 

 

intergalactickungfuoverdrive's picture
intergalacticku...

2:00 to 2:30

fed

•A  = 1 Tablespoon filtered boiled lemon juice + 1 Tbl spoooon flour

 

•B’ and B’’ = 1 Tbl lemon juice

 

 

•lemon juice one = 2 teaspoons lemon juice and flour

 

•sulfuric acid one =  1 Tablespoon lemon juice and a tad more than a Tablespoon flour because it had more residual water in the jar when i made it and was a little runny. i figured i didn’t want to keep giving it sulphate;  but maybe a little as it goes on. also, i don’t know what pH buffer effects would come from the sulfuric and citric acids together now; but i guess i can start messing with buffer calculations now haha.

 

just received another 

•san franscisco sourdough starter culture packet; and added it to a jar with 1 Tablespoon, and a bit more, lemon juice + Tablespoon flour

 

 

B’ and B’’ smelled like kombucha B’ more so (B’’ smelled more cheesy untill stirred) and B’ had a bit of a dough scoby going on; i mixed it all in

 

also the lemon juice starter jar had a bit of a scoby at the top, but barely; i think it’s just a more stiff dough in that case, with the top layer dehydrating more and making a pancake thing.

the B’ thing was probably something similar, but i’m not sure entirely; but it really did smell like scoby.

i made kombucha scoby before in the kitchen and stored them in my room, but that was years ago, so i’f be surprised if that was it

 

with the only more solid like one being the lemon juice experiment one; i am wondering if the added compounds/acids are keeping the evaporations down, because the 2 coffee filters only slightly helps, i think, so maybe it’s that or an issue of more liquid compared to filter rate, humidity changes, or i put in too much liquid, idk ? 

 

if i knew what pH does in non newtonian fliud type things, as far as what is actual liquid for Molarity calculations (or if Molality can be used in actual non ideal type stuff or something idk about yet), i could put more flour to get it more gummy, but add drips of the 1 N sulfuric acid to change the pH enough, without making putty.

i don’t have a pH meter, or rather one i’d want to get dough in; or know if they will even read accurately, or what curve balls there are.

3.1ml in 97ml was the calc, so ~62 drops (? if drops are really standard, but i think viscosity and vander wal effect stuff changes it depending on the liquid, temperature, maybe dropper material, and diameter of surface and hahahaha possibly smoothness and perfectedness to roundedness haha and vibration and how you squeeze it)

62 drops for 97ml

 9.4598 for 14.8 mL (1 Tbl) so 

18.9196 for 29.6 mL (2 Tablespoons), 

so about 19 drops per 2 Tablespoons water, if that water is pure water

intergalactickungfuoverdrive's picture
intergalacticku...

i was able to get pineapple juice today

 

•i took jar A and took about a tablespoon out and added it to a new jar with 1/4 cup flour and 1/4 cup pineapple juice

 

•i then took jar A and transferred it to a cup; and cleaned the jar ; then i poured some of the culture from the cup up to about a third of a centimeter from the bottom. it is a quart sized wide mouth mason jar A.

then i added about 1/4 teaspoon of Thermophile C culture and 1/4 teaspoon of Propionibacterium 50 culture, 1/4 cup pineapple juice and 1/4 cup flour.

i mixed it and then realized i should have done it in the cup. i dumped the rest of the mix that was left in the cup, cleaned the cup, poured the new jar A mix into the cup and cleaned jar A yet again. Ooof.

then i poured the cup in smoothly and covered it.

at the start, jar A was originally vinegary or smelled like kombucha, i think. not so cheesy.

 

 

•then i took B’ and B’’ and did the next following things to them

•i took 3/4 cup flour and i believe 3/4 cup pineapple juice (but i may have gotten confused and used 1 cup), and blended it with 1/4 teaspoon Thermophile C culture and 1/4 teaspoon Propionibacteria 50 culture, along with everything in jar B’. then i cleaned jar B’ and poured the blender mix in and covered, etc.

 

•i then put  3/4 cup of pineapple juice and 3/4 cup of flour (unless i accidentally used a cup) in a blender and mixed, then i evenly sprinkled 1/4 teaspoon Thermophile C culture and 1/4 teaspoon Propionibacteria 50 culture over the top and stirred carefully as to not clump the butter knife i was using, or to have dry clump pockets of culture coated with dough. i just barely got them in there a bit so they were kind of hydrated and spread around evenly. then i poured in the contents of jar B’’ and stirred a bit and pulled the butter knife out two times, one on each side, on the blender cup rim and pushed the goop the mixture, ect.

the. i blended and poured into a cleaned jar B’’.

 

•oh yeah; i fed my pure san franscisco sourdough culture 1/4 cup pineapple juice and 1/4 cup flour

 

 

•initially before feeding, jars B’ and B’’ were smelling kind of cheesy, better then yesterday. i’m kind of exited.

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•took jar B’’ and used about 200 mL to mix with 1/3 cup flour and pineapple juice, and put in cleaned jar. it smelled a little yeasty, but also fusel alcohol like, maybe, but there is/was all that pineapple juice. the attenuation of the yeast was not done, but was slowly rising in the cup (it could have been the cheese cultures and the P. shermanii, but i am not sure)

 

•B’ smelled much more fusel alcohol and no real yeasty (i mean like the bready goodness type) and so i pitched it down the drain; same stuff most likely; not sure if wild yeast in grain, beer yeast, or san franscisco sourdough yeast, but the pineapple juice or liquid ratio was higher to give it less of the good; ao after renormalization, B’’ seemed likely to have the same or better ratios going on. not seemingly worth it.

 

 

•half of jar A was poured in a baking dish for attempted bread; it smelled more cheesy; also this one didn’t have the beer yeast in it’s experiment, so native yeast to the flour, or more likely the san francisco sourdough yeast. wild yeast around, the pizza dough yeast previous stuff, or ale yeast from bad/poor practice/technique/conditions, etc. but i think its the san francisco one, and B’’ is ale or maybe san franscisco one.

 

•Anyway jar A culture was mixed with 1/3 cup flour and pineapple juice and added to the cleaned jar.

 

•the B whatever small jar side experiment was also tossed; it smelled like fusels, and didn’t have the thermophile C and P. shermanii added, so hopefully they make a comeback in B’’, but i’m hoping to start this fresh with the butter flavor, diacetyl producing wyeast london esb 1968 ale yeast, and DME (dry malt extract) cultured thermophile C + Propionibacteria shermanii 50, and also another experiment with mesophilic DME incubations added.

 

•fed san francisco sourdough jar, now called SFSD, 1/3 cup flour and 1/3 cup pineapple juice.

 

 

 

 

 

•~ 2 teaspoons each of culture from the lemon juice experiment jar and the sulfuric acid experiment jar, mixed together. mixed with 1/3 cup flour and 1/3 cup pineapple juice; the. poured a small amount in a jar.

 

 

i mixed up the spare batter of the A and B’’ with a sourdough bread recipe for starter; i kneaded them initially and about every 10 minutes 3 or 4 times, then after 30 minutes from last, again and put them in sesame seed oiled ceramicware. i covered them with soaked and partly wrung, folded long sleeve shirts.

B’’ still smelled unappealing, but A smelled nice; i am guessing due to the sourdough yeast instead of ale yeast, or because it still had cheesy bacteria / products in it, which could change over the next 12-24 hours. i did only use water though,  so the pH will not be acidic. also though, i added salt according to the recipe. it will probably be terrible, but it was waste product anyway. i’m probably going to junk the B’’ jar and the A with B mixed jar, but i’m waiting to see how the jars and bread turn out.

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https://imgur.com/a/53FeIAo

 

it turns out B’’ rose alot and didn’t smell like fusels after baking; i salted each loaf alot on top and preheated to 420F i put them in at 260F and threw water in after it reached high temp for a while, then let it sit, then pulled the rack out and ised a scissor on the loafs, and pit them back in, threw more water in a little and let sit. i threw water in a last time and when the one started browning, i turned it off, pulled them to the front of the oven and left the door at a 90 degree angle for maybe 30-45 minutes.

i used too much oil for the small loaf of A, definitely, and it didn’t have much of a cheesy taste; maybe this will change eventually; but B’’ was awesome; actually cheesy and perfect with the salt, no yeastiness or fusel alcohols

i’m waiting on a hopefully true ~200 year old san francisco sourdough starter from ebay, so i can use the 2 x 2 heaping tablespoons dry starter, with maybe 4 tablespoons flour, mashed/pasteurized in 8 tablespoons pineapple juice; hopefully then excluding and flour yeast for sure.

eventually, then i hope i can keep it in a jar and i keep another jar of it with cheese cultures as a second jar; 

 

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i re-heated it and while it may have gotten good over a couple days, i found it was worse today, or re baking made it worse.

the oil was too much in the crust, but some parts that were not sesame seed oily (didn’t have coconut, or something else that would be good)

!!!!! and those parts that were fried just right tasted literally exactly like fried cheese !!!!! also, some of the areas on the top, which didn’t reheat all the way and were cold (10 minutes in a toaster oven), tasted like some cheese, like a soft aged cheese or something,

 

the heating may have ruined it, and it’s best to eat it the next day cold (i put it in the fridge too, so this likely effects it;

 

 

regardless there are two notes of concern; there was a backround taste in some parts, where there was a sour; but the sour seemed different than a sourdough, as far as i can remember, and it wasn’t homogeneous if i am right; i’m not sure, i’ll have to make another loaf.

 

 

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i re-heated it and while it may have gotten good over a couple days, i found it was worse today, or re baking made it worse.

the oil was too much in the crust, but some parts that were not sesame seed oily (didn’t have coconut, or something else that would be good)

!!!!! and those parts that were fried just right tasted literally exactly like fried cheese !!!!! and those parts are delicious, but the trick to frying the whole mass of dough, maybe making flat cookie or pasta like things, is the issue

toasting*(see below)

also, some of the areas on the top, which didn’t reheat all the way and were cold (10 minutes in a toaster oven), tasted like some cheese, like a soft aged cheese or something,

 

the heating may have ruined it, and it’s best to eat it the next day cold (i put it in the fridge too, so this likely effects it;

 

 

regardless there are two notes of concern; there was a backround taste in some parts, where there was a sour; but the sour seemed different than a sourdough, as far as i can remember, and it wasn’t homogeneous if i am right; i’m not sure, i’ll have to make another loaf.

 

but; toasting* or in this case, reheating may have effected it negatively. the taste wasn’t apparent to me yesterday (but i’m not sure); but i did notice that toasting the small loaf made from A made it taste worse, and i started to taste that same weird backtaste (no sour though) but not in the dough part, in the fried crust. it could be the oil, but i don’t know yet.

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i reduced and fed the starters 1:1:1 starter:flour:pineapple juice ; the san francisco sourdough, SFSD jar is active.

the B’’ jar is too, a little less i think.

A is moderately active

i fed A like stated, but what i did was i added som SFSD to a jar with some A so it was roughly 2 tablespoons each, then i added 4 tablespoons flour and 4 tablespoons pineapple juice; so that’s the “new” A, which is what i was trying to do all along anyway; the thermo C, P. shermanii and san francisco sourdough culture; but unfortunately, due to the lengthy time to get the ball rolling, i suspected that all or part of the culture was replaced by the microorganisms that were in the flour. the new san francisco sourdough batch is off and running; but, with the amount of un pasteurized flour i added (or any at all) before i noticed anything; i am unsure if it even is really the san francisco sourdough culture. but it should help there be more of whatever yeast it/they are in A

i am waiting on what is reportedly a 200 year old san francisco sourdough starter; it is also dried; but maybe more fresh then the other starter; but either way, i hope to pasteurize the flour i add, like in beer mashing. i plan to add a slight overage of pineapple juice instead of water and keep it at the beer mashing temperature (i have to look it up again); then cool and mix with the culture; which should hopefully outcompete everything.

 

 

i made some more bread attempts

1) i made dough from SFSD overage with some A

and 2) i made dough from B’’ overage with some A,

also 3) i added some of those together

i have 1 and 2 set in pans oiled slightly with orville redenbackers popcorn oil because i’m out of peanut oil; but the soy also has a high smoke point (it turns out i overlooked sesame being too low for the 420+- 30 or 50 or whatever fluctuations F that the oven has. i does not have a buttery taste as they advertise, but at least it’s vegan.

so after 20-24 hours, i hope to bake

 

the rest of 2 are balled in small bags with some oil squeezed around the walls, and are in the fridge for another try at B’’

 

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the doughs barely rose and tasted lousy, they still had fusel alcohol in them slightly. no cheesy or buttery tastes; and the soybean oil is terrible.

i’ve decided to try sesame and a lower oven temperature on the next ones.

i recieved the reported 200 year old san francisco sourdough starter, and it was maybe one and a half, maybe two tablespoons. i added 1/4 cup and 1 tablespoon flour flour to a pot, along with the same of pineapple juice and put the heat on low and stirred with a metal cased thermometer; it was going to be too clumpy so i added a splash more juice and then had the thicken it up with a bit of flour; i “mashed” at about 155 F for a minute or few, and let cool; it was very pasty and solid like; so i sterilized about 2 Tablespoons pineapple juice in another pan for about 15-30 seconds or more and let cool.

while the thermometer stuck in the pile of dough was cooling and the pot was cool, i put the pot at an angle off the cutting board and poured the culture in the empty part (the gloop was all piled/scooped in the middle and cooling) and poured in the juice. i sloshed it around, let it soaked and did it again after waiting; and when the thermometer hut about 97 or 96, i removed the thermometer and whipped it all together. i placed it in a mason jar with 3 coffee filters iver the top with a rubber band.

 

 

 

 

then i fed the other cultures i had, instead of throwing them out.

B’’ actually gave cheese bread, so i was going to keep that one anyway,

but with A, i poured it into pan that had the excess 200 year old starter all over it and mixed it all in; and poured some back into the cleaned jar A.

the. i poured about half of my SFSD starter in there (the reat down the drain, and cleaned the jar) and fed that flour. then i poured that into the cleaned jar SFSD.

(that jar of san francisco sourdough came from dried culture, which i started with pineapple juice, but in a large amount of flour on the second day. i used 1 Tbl flour and 1Tbl pineapple juice the first day but added 1/4 cups each, the second . i started wondering if i gave the microbes/yeast in the flour enough of a start to compete and thus make it not really the same as their san francisco sourdough. that’s why i pasteurized the flour on the 200 year old one, because i didn’t want to mess around with uncertainty (well....as much as possible). so adding the remnants of the 200 year old one to A (which had only thermophile C, P. shermanii and a diluted and questionable stage san francisco sourdough starter; but, all the microbes in the flour; and, run for a while before i got pineapple juice; had me thinking it could use some true SFSD culture.) seemed ok instead of chucking A, so i cam see if anything nice develops.

and as for SFSD titled jar; it wasn’t started the way i mentioned, and it’s maybe not the real deal (of course it’s still a SFSD culture, but why keep it if it’s not the 200 year old one, and i’m trying to juggle a bunch of jars? so i added in the mix of A that had the remnants of the 200 year old one, to get some of that; but; importantly; to see if anything positive from A could come over without overpowering the yeast that established in SFSD. A didn’t have the ale yeast, so it should have the san francisco sourdough starter i tried (before it went moldy and i chucked the plain jar, saved A which had the swiss cheese bacteria mix added, and bought another SFSD culture to make the jar i call SFSD), or yeast that was in the ground flour; so adding this bacteria heavy mix to the more yeast (i believe) established jar of SFSD, i figure it’s a worthier step to test for the short term.

 

i really just hope to count on the 200 year old starter and B’’, if B’’ rebounds ok and can make more cheesy loafs

 

 

i was meaning to test this with B’’, today, but made a mistake and put excess  A starter in the dough bowl; so now i have two doughs to test tomorrow,

one is the B’’ culture, with a decent amount of A/200ySFSD and pineapple juice (i was mixing the A thing to constancy when it was to thick and i added some pineapple juice, but i didn’t measure and splashed in too much; i stirred it till i had a lump that would work, with the excess juice/starter slurry being separatable and i poured it in the bowl without thinking; so my pure B’’ retest has to be made tomorrow and baked the day after, now. bummer

the other is that mix i made of the SFSD into the remaining amount of the A goop, which i didn’t pour into the jar; i added flour and made another goop, which i split in half, put part in the SFSD jar; and the other half i added to one of those 4 remaining dough balls (of which three were the subject of my terrible fusel flop bread i threw out today. if i didn’t mention it, the previous loaf from excess were unspectacular and the soy oil taste was bad; but no fusels of note. it was just bland and barely rose) with flour water salt recipe etc. and balled those into two pans.

 

so tomorrow i can find out how terribly dissapointing they are and more ways to fail; and sorry about all this, i barely want to do this, but if i don’t take these haphazard painstaking notes, i won’t have anything at all to retrace or retry. i know, i shudder to think of having to read back over all this.

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i don’t get it; but the first dough from B’’ with some A is doing nothing, but the jar B’’ and A are bubbling up in size;

whearas the jar SFSD is barely bubbled up, but the dough of it with the dough from the fridge is off to a wild start.

i may have answered my own question, it’s the dough from the fridge, but wow is that a surprise because it did nothing yesterday when i put them in pans.

 

i forgot to mention that i took the lemon juice/sulfuric acid experiment jar and poured it into the empty-ish jar A after i poured a into another container to mix it up. i added some salt and water and made a very watery slurry. i forgot what i did here but i think i added 2 tablespoons flour and re-jarred. 

 

https://imgur.com/a/FqcXmS1

 

 

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i started the other 200 year old san francisco sourdough culture that arrived. i had ordered two of the same.

i added 1/3 cup and 1/4 cup flour and pineapple juice to a pot, and stirred, then i added 1/4 cup flour and about a tablespoon pineapple juice; i stirred with a thermometer for a while until it was just going go to 150 and above, from 145.

i split off a portion and separated it to feed the previous identical starter and added 2 tablespoons sterilized pineapple juice to it and 4 to the main bit. i put the pot on an angle though and let the culture absorb the juice before stirring.

 

i dumped culture jar A

 

i stirred a tablespoon flour into that lemon juice etc one

 

i poured 1/4 cup B’’ out to make a dough experiment repeat and hopefully get the same great rise/crumb and cheesy taste. used less sesame see oil. (previous dough tasted like crap, had a slight fusel/aldehyde/ester or whatever crap taste in one and low rise and similar thing with the other. might have sensed a bit of cheese but i don’t think it was anything but the slight amount of sesame seed oil)

i had 1/3 cup B’’ left and fed it the same of flour and pineapple juice.

 

i fed the “SFSD” jar that had some A added, 1/3 cup flour and half water half pineapple juice in a 1/3 cup measuring scoop. it’s probably not great, but i figured to hold on to it just in case (same thing with the lemon juice thing, it’s probably really garbage, but i wanted to see it through if it doesn’t become a burden)

 

the first 200 year old san franscisco sourdough jar has risen quite alot after this feed, interestingly the last 2.5/3 cm of the bottom doesn’t really have many bubbles; i maybe didn’t stir enough. if it rises too much, i’ll have to stir it down and scoop some out to make a bread test.

 

https://imgur.com/a/pA89U6Q

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my first jar of the 200 year old san francisco sourdough  is starting to show smells of acetic acid, vinegar. the B’’ jar heavily does, and has for a while.

i was wondering what it was, if it was the yeast or if it was the swiss cheese bacteria making more acetic instead of propionic acid

 

i just realized/remembered it was the yeast, or rather acetobacteria which are using the alcohol to make binegar, acetic acid.

this has been the problem. i don’t have airlock jars with the bubblers.

 and i am out of money and need to move right away, so i just put saran wrap over the jars and then fit the coffee filters back over them and put the rubber bands back on

i think this has been the problem.

 

also after feeding with half strength pineapple juice, diluted, the “SFSD” jar has started putting out butter smells and it must be leconostoc i suppose. i also put saran wrap on this one too now.

i dumped the lemon juice etc experiment, nothing worth it seemingly.

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maybe lactic acid bacteria with the unfortunate side of  heterolactive fermentation, so maybe the lacknof oxygen can prevent the acetic acid production over ethanol; but also i put my proofer on 85degF just in case low temperature makes the acetic acid.

however, when i aged a bread biga that had cheese bacteria in it, the number of times i did for a week or two; there was always a pasty texture (debra mentioned an enzyme being active or no active that affects gluten, at low pH) and even though it didn’t rise well when added to yeast dough, it had slight cheesy quality to it. i recall toasting, browning brought out it more, and some fried cheese taste, but no recall-able weird tastes besides maybe some yeasty taste from the instant pizza dough yeast. also, there were some probiotic pills added, which had a good slew of lactobacillus species in it. maybe this effected it too. i mean to get there eventually with these tests.  but anyway those agings, and the one winter long one that gave some cheesy smells, were done in a bowl with a sealed lid, so i’m wondering if maybe it was only the oxygen and not the temperature.

also using this pineapple juice seems to really cause a problem because there is so much sugar in it and it isn’t maltose. it is a hunch, that there are more unwanted byproducts, but i don’t know. i assume squeezed lemon juice , diluted with water and measured with a pH meter would be better for regular feeding, but i don’t remember if debra wink did this.

also, i don’t know if citrate buildup instead of lactic is effecting the later actions of the cheese bacteria. it seems to soon to switch to flour/water for my 200 year old san francisco sourdough starter attempts, but the B’’ one has me totally confused as to what is going on. the dough i made rose a bit, but nothing close to the loaf i made with it before; and that crumb didn’t look like leconostoc could produce that. i’m wondering if prolonged exposure to acetic acid (which debra mentioned really stunted or prevented culture growth) has messed up everything and unbalanced the flora to a crappy loaf. i don’t know if it will rebalance with proper feeding. with the saran wrap covering, maybe it will bounce back, maybe after removing starter and diluting it/the acetic acid with feed.

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i decided to take 1/3 cup out of the 1st 200 year old san francisco sourdough starter and add 1/3 cuo flour.

i added 1/3 cup flour to B’’, which’s loaf turned out semi rised and barely any fusel/aldehyde/ester trace. a little tangy, and sparse hints at hints of cheese but none really at all.

i make a sourdough loaf attempt out of the removed starter; and had to keep adding flour. after kneading and let rest at something like 5, 10, 20 minutes, and then 30 it was risen a good deal, so it seems active. it maybe won’t be aour or have any great flavor, i’m letting it rise 24 hours hopefully.

 

the hydration of the starter was high, so idk if it matters but i used 1/3 c flour blue king arthur’s bread flour, then a half of 1/3 c of the same. then 1/4 cup water and maybe 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 of 1/4 teaspoon salt. then had to add more flour which was i believe two more 1/3 cup flour, but if red king arthur’s all purpose (one could have been blue, but i think it was red)

one thing i haven’t mentioned is that i have been using the blue bread flour and the red all purpose flour, and mixes of, to start and feed the cultures this whole time.

i know debra had said to use whole wheat (to start or also always to feed, i forgot) but i just don’t have any now, unless i stowed one in the back of the freezer, so i hope it works ok otherwise even if it’s just more time consuming.

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so i ended up not feeding my cultures for half a week or more or idk. and then did feed them; but i had alot of excess SFSD and some B’’, so i used a-lot of that fed mix to make a bread dough and let it sit for maybe a week and it smelled really swiss cheesy but didn’t rise at all. i kept letting it go, and today, maybe 7-11 days after mixing, i made some cracker breads out of them on a avocado oiled pan and baked the first pan at 400 F for 9 min and raised to 460 for the next 6. it hit 460 quick at around the 11 min mark .?

then i baked the other pan at 460 F for 16-17 min

 

both were salted on the tops right before baking

 

the “scoby” on the top is the part that smells really swiss cheese like; it only looks like that due to me being out of saran wrap, and even as well formed and crimped as i made it, the aluminum foil wasn’t airtight.

 

it seems like the loss of moisture makes the bacteria produce the swiss cheese compounds. maybe this is what happens in the cheese.

 

the gooey under-layer smelled bland-ish and maybe had a hint of vinegar or somethings besides; but, no noticeable swiss cheese smell. i am guessing if it was progressively mixed and slowly dehydrated, it might develop a full swiss cheese smell through it all; so, i used the left over goop to make another dough, but also added a decent amount of avocado oil, because P. shermanii decomposes oils and makes stuff out of them.

 

https://imgur.com/a/UuX2COS

OH !, so it’s salty (of course, which is kind of necessary), very tangy , and theres a sort of cheese family or cheese bread family type of taste; not a pronounced swiss cheese taste, or at least i’m not sure; and the avocado oil doesn’t mess up anything and is neutral or good.

 

i had tamped them down as much as possible to caramelize as much surface area to filling as possible and this came out alright.

 

also, the fed starter i used came from starter that smelled vinegar heavy, no swiss at all; but the swiss was pronounced after a few days of the dough sitting

 

interestingly, before cutting up and baking, there was a slight red color to some liquid on the surface of the dough.