June 11, 2020 - 1:03am
Please help me troubleshoot this loaf
I have been making sourdough for about 10 years, using the River cottage method which includes 10 minutes kneading, 1st rise, deflating, second rise and baking. This made pretty good loaves. Then I decided to try no knead and this is where things started to go wrong. As you can see. I have followed Joshua Weissman’s method which I saw on YouTube via “ bingeing with babish.”
My question is, does this look overproved or underproved? It was baked in a cloche for a total of 1 hour. Thanks for any advice.
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I should add that the flour was 80% strong Canadian white 20% wholemeal spelt. I am in London, England and it hasn’t been very warm, in fact unseasonably cold. I let it rise 14-15 hours in the fridge overnight. I fed my starter regularly in the 36 hours running up to baking.
The cold may have been it. That looks under fermented/proofed, which if not compensated for, will happen in a cold or cool spell. Cold will also effect the starter slowing it down. So I guess the thing to do is give everything more time, or try to raise temps. Don't worry, it's not you! Enjoy!
I think I disagree with the other comment. This loaf looks VERY over-proofed to me given the huge caverns and other ares of dense dough. The large open spaces appear indicative of broken down gluten structure. Are you using a recipe specifically written for no-knead? If not, that could also be part of the problem. There are lots of resources on this site regarding those kinds of recipes. You could cut back on your bulk ferment and/or proof times, but without more details regarding recipe and process, it will be hard to provide much helpful advice.
Under everything.
Thank you for your comments. Here is an outline of the method I followed. Ingredients : 450g flour ( 400g strong white, 50g wholemeal spelt) 300ml water, 90g leaven. 1) mix flour and water without kneading, leave 1 hour 2) add leaven on top, dimple the dough, push leaven in. Then mix dough using a scooping and slaping down action, for 2 minutes, rest 20 minutes 3) add 5g salt, mixed with about 30ml water. Also using scooping and slaping action, for 2 minutes. Rest 15 minutes 4) fold , rest 15 minutes 5) fold, rest 15. Minutes 6) fold, rest 20 minutes 7) shape loaf by dragging in worktop with hands cupping the dough to create tension 8) place in floured bowl, put in fridge overnight 9) bake at 500F for 20+minutes, lower temperature, bake another 40 minutes. I used a cloche and re over the lid for the last 20 minutes or so.
I didn't realize this was no knead - my mistake for missing that. Just so happens that's all I do. And after reading twice (being careful this time) I didn't see a proofing stage in the process.
PS - I see very good color in the crust, not usually a sign of over proofing.
I'm not a big fan of Joshua Weissman. He'll tell you if you want to do this you can but if you dont it's ok.. like scoring the bread is optional...check out Sune aka "foodgeek" on youtube instead. he's much more technical and explains thing in a better way.
do folds instead of scoops and. do window pane test after your folds to see if the dough is ready. do preshape and final shape. it sounds like a lot, but you actually handle the dough much less than what Weissman does in his videos.
Ok, thank you for this advice I will check out the other guy. I am making a kneaded sourdough today, will post the picture. Not that it will prove anything, just that I haven’t mastered no knead ( yet).
That was a very short bulk fermentation time if I’m adding the times correctly given the prefermented flour was around 10%. You didn’t give the temperature that bulk was done at so if it was quite warm that would have sped up fermentation. But that and the appearance of the bread having very dense gummy looking crumb I’d say that this is very under proofed. Usually over proofed you won’t have gummy crumb and it will be more open than with under proofed albeit still dense but with more holes.
Benny
Than you Benito. So does that mean it did not have enough time for the yeast to do its work before I slowed everything down by putting it in the fridge?
As you know, once you’ve added the levain bulk fermentation has started. You want to build structure and allow your dough to become adequately fermented during bulk. I’m not sure what temperature you bulked at but remember temperature is an ingredient that affects the dough fermentation so it is important to take into consideration in determining the length of bulk. I add up about 87 mins that you allowed for bulk fermentation based on your outline. When I have made a dough with roughly 25% whole grain (which ferments faster than 100% white) with approximately 10% prefermented flour which yours was approximately, it would take about 4 hours at a temperature of 78-80ºF to complete bulk fermentation and rise between 30-50% volume.
So I’d say you need to give it much more time in bulk fermentation to adequately ferment. Considering using an aliquot jar or glass next time. Typically for sourdough it is good to aim for about a 30-50% volume increase. I cannot read this in a bowl. After the first set of stretch and folds when you have started to build some structure, remove about a 30 g portion of the dough and place it in a small jar or glass. Mark where the dough is in that jar. You can now use this to accurately judge 30-50% volume increase. I’ve only recently started using this method but it has helped tremendously in judging when to end bulk fermentation. During the first ⅓ of bulk fermentation there isn’t too much increase in volume so removing the 30 g bit of dough during that time is fine.
Yes then using the aliquot jar, you then know when to do your shaping and start cold retard.
Benny
Thank you Benito this is all helpful. I now realise that it did not have enough time at ambient temperature to ferment.
I think I have been seduced into no knead by all the enticing YouTube videos. Maybe it’s sour grapes, because I really have not mastered the technique, but I am wondering what the advantages of no knead are. Does it make better bread? Or is it just to avoid kneading, which for me is not a chore, I rather enjoy it.
Stretch and folds are a great way that most of us use to build structure and organize the gluten in our dough. I don’t really think of what we’re doing as no knead, but I suppose some do. I often use slap and folds after I have added the salt to ensure that it is well incorporated, I guess that is considered a form of kneading.
Honestly, I think you need to give it much more time in bulk fermentation and you’ll have a better result next time.
Benny
The science behind no knead is more than sound. As a matter of fact, the "usual" method seen here is for the most part a no knead method. Purpose of kneading is to form gluten - at an accelerated rate. No knead uses time to form gluten. When you mix flour and water - gluten forms - and it's hard to not get it to form. The few stretch and folds normally done really won't do much to develope gluten. That overnight time in the fridge and rising (which is an excellent form of kneading) develops the gluten. I also like to knead (it seems to have a calming effect on me), but to knead by hand to get really good gluten development, can take hours or more. And here's the big advantage in no knead - is easy to work into most any schedule. Mix dough before bed and in the fridge, take out next afternoon/evening and shape, proof, bake. If something comes up during the process, leave it in the fridge till you can get to it (I've gone 4 days without issue). And there's no knead - plain and simple just the way I like it! Enjoy!