Dough is very wet & shapeless at 70%. What am I doing wrong?
Hello, I've been reading these forums and they've been an invaluable resource. I'm hoping someone can help me out with my sourdough problem:
I'm looking to make a loaf with 70% hydration. My problem is that every time I put this dough together, it is incredibly wet. It just pools out on the counter and is very difficult to work with. I understand that because it's higher in hydration, it will be wet & difficult - but mine is excessively so. I've done lots of "home-baker" research; I've read articles and watched videos (Binging w/ Babish, Foodgeek, Bon Apetit, Full Proof Baking, Pro Home Cooks, etc) and even though their dough is at 70% or above, it doesn't look as runny as mine and is way more workable. I refuse to give up, because I know I can do this, but I'm losing my mind trying to trouble shoot.
Here's what I've been working with:
450g Bread flour (100%)
300g Water (66.67%)
100g Starter @ 100% hydration (22.22%)
10g Salt (2.22%)
This puts it at 70%, according to bread calculators I've used online. I've used different ones to double check. My starter lives on my counter, rises and falls predictably and is fed twice a day with whole wheat and unbleached AP. I leave tap water on the counter overnight to evaporate chemicals. I follow the plan of autolyse - bulk rise - shape - overnight cold rest - bake.
Things I've tried on different bakes:
1. Fed starter at different ratios for a week before baking: originally at 1:5:5, then 1:1:1, now at 1:2:2. Before each bake, I'd prepare a levain of 1:1:1. I feed it at 1:2:2 because that ratio seems to work best in my apartment's environment.
2. Longer / shorter autolyse, and even no autolyse. I've tried it with the starter, without the starter, with salt, without the salt and it makes no difference. Still just crazy soaked dough.
3. Kneading before bulk rise to add some strength to the dough. Passes windowpane test, but then after the bulk rise, the dough has the same issue: flat, wet and impossible.
4. Extra stretch and folds, still turns out to pancake on the counter.
5. Added whey liquid to the recipe, just for run and flavor, but it also turned out the same way. Wasn't really expecting this to make a difference.
The dough is just impossible to shape. I usually then sigh and pour the dough into a bread pan, and bake. There's good oven spring. The bread comes out a little dense, but its delicious. The crumb is more open then store bought bread, but not nearly as open as a good sourdough. I really wish I'd taken pictures, I'll have to do that next time.
I'm at a loss. I'm guessing that the gluten just isn't developing, but I'm not sure why. I had heard something about the acidity in the dough causing gluten breakdown, but aside from adding whey liquid the one time, I don't know where that'd be coming from. I'm really hoping someone can help point me in the right direction, and thank you to anyone who can.
Why don’t you just try it with a lower hydration.
There can be different reasons why this does not work for you.
Maybe the flower is not strong enough for such a high hydration.
Maybe the humidity in your kitchen and your flour is to high.
If I was you a would keep 50 gram water back and only add some if you feel de dough can handle it.
Weighting the left over water tells you wat you actulay used.
You're absolutely right, I could just reduce hydration if all I wanted was bread. I appreciate the response. What I'm looking to do though, is get better at higher hydration dough. I'm trying to learn new stuff, and I'm running into roadblocks that have stumped me.
Sorry to insist on what has already been said. A high hydration dough is a combination of (a lot of) water AND the kind of flour that can take that lot of water, even before we start talking about the skill of whoever is putting the dough together.
If you have a soup right after mixing as you describe, there’s not 22 things to look at, it’s a 99% chance it’s your flour, unless your starter is a soup too to start with (pun intended ;-)),
The advice you’ve been given by Dbazuin about withholding some of the water from the initial mix is very wise. You want to train in high-hydration, we understand, but the first step to get you there is that you have to know that not all flours are adequate for high hydration, as not all cars can on an go off-road Trek.
One more thing, high-hydration dough seems almost manageable in the myriad online videos. It’s not. Those on the video have been there before. One of the most-active forum members, Alfanso, suggested to someone in your situation to start with a lower-hydration dough as if it was a set of training wheels. There’s a lot of wisdom in that. The recipe is low hydration, it’s instant yeast, but I’d suggest you bake this a few times (5-10 times at least) until you get a nice open crumb before you go back to high-hydration. Believe me you’ll thank Alfanso for his wise advice once you’ve done that. I did that, it gave me a much-needed boost in my confidence as a rookie baker, and I went back to high-hydration with an entirely different mindset.
Here’s the recipe by the way:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17415/baguettes-l039ancienne-cold-retardation
And Alfanso’s wisdom about the training wheels:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/63699/baguette-practice
Safe bakes
I know that flour brand matters, but this was such an extreme difference that I just didn't think it could be the case. I'll def try a different brand of flour, thank you for that. I do have experience with lower hydration doughs of many varieties, both with wild yeast and commercial. I'm familiar with how flour reacts with water; this situation just happened to be new to me. Apologies if my original post made it seem like this was my first crack at bread making. I guess what frustrates me the most is that there are so many "walkthroughs" that don't bother to mention the brand of flour.
I'll try another brand and report back as soon as possible.
All the better if you have prior experience with lower hydration doughs. Just let us know how things turn out. Safe bakes.
Hi there! Given the recipe you posted:
450g Bread flour (100%)
300g Water (66.67%)
100g Starter @ 100% hydration (22.22%)
10g Salt (2.22%)
I'm seeing a different hydration than the 70% you're desiring. If you've got 300g water for the dough plus another 50g of water in the starter then your hydration would be (300+50)/450 = 77.7%. If you leave out 50g of water from the initial dough mixing then the water in the starter will make that up; giving you the 70% you're wanting.
Also, what brand of flour are you using? Other members might have some input on the flour response that you're getting. They aren't all the same!
HTH,
Barrie
Flour 450 + 50 from starter = 500
waterr 300 + 50 from starter =350
Thats 70 % hydration.
Oops! Thank you dbasuin; I was too busy looking at the water!
You haven't mentioned temperature. It's an ingredient too. I started a chemist's notebook today to isolate my problems with high hydration dough.
You need strong flour for high hydration dough.
iI recently learned that the higher the W value (stronger flour) the more water it can absorb but also the longer it can ferment before it breaks done.
see http://www.theartisan.net/flour_criteria_judging.htm for more info.