The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Best Panettone so far... [updated]

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Best Panettone so far... [updated]

Super-massive oven spring!

Based on a formula by Iginio Massari.

I was able to add extra water to the dough because the strength was so good.

Marriage's flour is excellent!

 

1st dough (12hrs @ 26C)

 

flour

168

lievito madre (50% hydration)

48

water

61

sugar

50

egg yolk

50

butter

42

  

2nd dough (bulk 1hr, 7hrs @ 26C)

 

flour

42

vanilla flavour

n

sugar

42

honey

10.5

salt

3.4

egg yolk

50

butter

63

water

37

  

sultanas and candied orange

168

 

834.9

Comments

Our Crumb's picture
Our Crumb

Looks perfetto.  Positively explosive. 

But wait.  Isn't it colomba season?

Then again, the whole world is upside down these days so...no matter.

t

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Ah yes tis the season.. for colomba. Sadly I do not have those moulds in stock.

This panettone was actually my second attempt in recent days and I did initially make a Veneziana (a colomba in a panettone mould) but I wasn't happy with the results. With candied orange in short supply this one became a panettone.

Strange times indeed,

Michael

 

Benito's picture
Benito

That is one beautiful panettone!  Bet it tastes good too.

Benny

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Have to wait a few days before the cut, so the flavours can mature..

I will update as and when..

Thanks again,

Michael

Silviu's picture
Silviu

The recipe seems to be this one, am I right? https://www.dissapore.com/ricette/panettone-iginio-massari/

What size is the mold, 750g or 1kg?

mwilson's picture
mwilson

You're right, I used that one as the basis. I upped the LM quantity by a few percentage points and tweaked it a little so it made sense in practice.

This was a mould for a 750g panettone.

captain.coriander's picture
captain.coriander

I just made my first panettone this weekend (using the recipe from wildyeastblog) and while the flavour was so epic my hubby had tears in his eyes, I need to improve on a few things. I'm gonna be making another one next week, and hoping & praying the crumb will be half as good as yours!

A few questions for you please:

1) The recipe you post seems to have more yolks and less water, but the combined liquid totals the same (wildyeastblog uses 5% yolk + 19% water. Yours is 12% yolk + 11.7% water. Both totals ~24%). Have you made a less-yolk recipe? Do you think this ratio affects the final crumb structure?

2) You mentioned somewhere that you soak your fruits in marsala wine first. Is the marsala wine weight taken into account to the fruits weight?

3) Have you tried making one with "panettone aroma"? Does it make a massive difference to the final product?

4) I got a good rise during over spring, but my final crumb is slightly wet, and a tad gummy. It does not have that fluffy/shreddy/strandsy look you get from commercial panettone. I did check that the internal temperature reached 185F, and left it to cool for almost 24 hours before cutting. Any ideas/suggestions?

Thanks!

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Your first panettone, and it didn't fail! That in itself is a great achievement and I'm glad you received such a great response.

To answer your questions:

1) Recipes from the Maestros tend to include a high percentage of yolk, typically 40-50%. I have made numerous panettoni over the years including ones not so enriched I'm sure. Yolks will make the crumb more delicate and are unlikely to contribute to better cell structure.

2) I don't do soaked fruit anymore. But in that case it's best to dry them after soaking and weighing them would include any liquor that was soaked up.

3) Yes. But now I make my own flavourings. The night before when making the first dough mix honey with orange zest and vanilla seeds (from pod). You can also add some candied orange peel that has been pounded into a paste. Pestle and mortar works well enough for this task.

4) There could be a number of things causing this but most issues usually stem from the starter. The shredding quality is definitely related to gluten development and flour composition. Wet and gummy make me think over fermented and your core temp is perhaps too low. Should be about 92°C.

Making panettone is perhaps the most complex sourdough endeavours, since the fermentation needs to be just right! When cutting into the lievito madre that is suitably mature it should reveal a pleasant alcohol aroma with no discernible acetic qualities. And on the palate you should find a subtle lactic tartness and carbonic zing.

Sharing pictures may help with any further diagnosis...

Thanks for the complement and good luck with the next one.

Cheers,
Michael

captain.coriander's picture
captain.coriander

Thanks for your answers and words of encouragement :)

Below is the picture of said panettone's crumb. It makes sense if this is related to the starter - I did feed the sweet starter for 24 hours before using it, but the temperature was all over the show. I've now splashed out on a proofing box thing, so hopefully that'll help somewhat.

I also screwed up the first dough - I basically stirred it together without kneading it (misreading the step, and blindly following without thinking lol, my bad) - so while it *almost* tripled, I felt like she struggled a bit.

Also, thanks for the info about core temp - will use this as a reference for the next loaf.

p.s. any chance you may have the picture of your dough *before* it went into the oven? Was it just at the rim of the baking case? I just realised, I may not have got as good an oven spring as I thought, considering how much yours properly domed over the case!

 

first panettone

mwilson's picture
mwilson

This particular panettone of mine is in a basso type mould and I waited until the centre of the dough peaked a few millimetres above the top. Didn't take a photo of this one pre-bake but for reference here is another on my blog: https://staffoflife.wordpress.com/2012/10/01/veneziana-al-cioccolato-by-giovanni-pina/

According to Maestro Massari the final dough should triple, more or less, but the final product should be 5-6 times the volume of the mixed dough. Which means it should about double during the bake.

Thanks for the picture, it is very telling! First thing I notice is the structure is fairly weak. I think you need a stronger flour... What flour did you use?

Michael

captain.coriander's picture
captain.coriander

Thanks for the reference. Wow, yet another gorgeous panettone! I notice that one is fermented at 30C for both stages. Does that make any noticeable difference to the "normal" 26C?

I used Marriage's strong white flour for this one (which I'm running out of, so my next one will be Waitrose Canadian very strong flour). Thoughts?

I'm making another one this weekend, with the following changes:

- This time, I'll do a few feeds to convert my 100% starter to 50% starter. Last time, I completely missed this step, and made the sweet starter with 100% starter

- This time, I'll give the first dough a proper knead before fermenting. Last time, I just mixed it together with a spatula.

- This time, I'll be able to apply a consistent temperature control during all fermentation. Last time, it was a very manual oven-assisted temperature setup, which I'd say fluctuates between 10C - 40C (lol, my poor dough)

Hoping some combination of these will make a difference. Fingers crossed!

Please feel free to throw any more suggestions my way :)

mwilson's picture
mwilson

As a rule it would be best to make sure any dough at any stage never surpasses 30C. 28C is the optimum core temp but Massari has written of making panettone at home and he makes note of the mass effect. He describes how larger quantities of dough ferment faster and so while in the bakery doughs are kept at 26-28C it is better to aim for 28-30C in a domestic setting.

Based on a prior attempt where I used Marriage's Strong White flour, I would say it isn't strong enough! The panettone I posted here was made with Marriages "Superfines" flour which consists of 15% protein and is specially formulated for "longer bakery processes". Waitrose flour is supplied by Marriage's and so the very strong Canadian should be ideal and give good results.

Not sure about any suggestions but I was very pleased with my approach to mixing the second dough. My method involved remixing the leavened first dough, which took about 5- 10 minutes. Once developed I incorporated the flour and mixed to a very well developed but very firm dough. At this point I refrigerated the dough and put the dough hook in the freezer for 30 minutes before continuing. I did this to prevent the dough from warming too much during further mixing as this can negatively effect the dough.

Hope that is of some help.

Good luck,
Michael

captain.coriander's picture
captain.coriander

The loaf I made last weekend turned out beautifully! The texture is no longer gummy, it's very soft & fluffy - it's just so satisfying to eat!

Naturally, I'll be making more this weekend. I'm considering adding more fruits, maybe 25% more than the original recipe. Do you think I'm asking for trouble?

Also, I'll be making one loaf with glaze. Anything I should watch out for when applying/baking?

Here's a cheeky photo of my baby :)

mwilson's picture
mwilson

That looks fantastic!

You can add more fruits, the typical fraction is 20% of the dough weight (eg. 200g fruit per 1kg dough).

Really well done, keep it up!

Cheers,
Michael

carlos.ribeiro's picture
carlos.ribeiro

Hello Captain!
I came up with different values for water and yolk bakers percentages of these two recipes:

                              Water    Egg yolk     Sum
Susan (wildyeast):   74%       17%         91%
M.Wilson:                 52%       43%         95%


However, assuming the water content of yolk as 74% and 15% for butter, the total water content of both recipes are:
Susan:      74 + 0.74*17 + 0.15*44 = 91%
M.Wilson: 52 + 0.74*43 + 0.15*45 = 91%

IMHO, I guess the most significant difference is related to the fruit's content: 63% (Susan) and 72%(M. Wilson)

Manuel96's picture
Manuel96

I'm gonna try this week your recipe, but I've no panettone mold so I'll try to make it in a loaf pan. Can I use milk instead of water?

Manuel96's picture
Manuel96

This is a no knead version of this recipe, I don't know how did you achieve such open crumb, I used Farina Futura tipo 0 14g of proteins and a p/l 0.4/0.6. W isn't particularly high in this flour W280.

Thank you so much for your recipe is delicious 😍🤤

Manuel96's picture
Manuel96
Go0ley's picture
Go0ley
  1. Hi. I was Wondering if you have any insight on how to treat your pasta madre. I have had mine for 4 months which isn’t long at all and I’ve attempted panettone probably 5 times and they’ve come out ok and the first formula I did Was Andrea tortoras and then massaris and have been on giorillis formula the last two times because it is a great and easier dough to work with. I cant understand if my pasta madre is too weak or if I’m underproofing the panettone. It’s a learning process for sure but was wondering if you might have any insight. I’ve been experimenting with different flours and temperatures and lengths of time before I feed If and underfed it so I can understand it’s smell and texture better so I can understand what it should be when it’s actually ready. The photos are of my last panettone I made using giorillis formula and my pasta madre  
JeannieTay's picture
JeannieTay

Hello mwilson, would appreciate if you could explain further how you mix your second impasto? Thanks in advance. 
jeannie. 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Hi Jeannie,

The typical order of additions is flour, sugar (in stages) , 1/3 yolks, honey, 1/3 yolks, salt, 1/3 yolks, butter, water (if specified) and lastly the add-ins (fruit). It is always important to observe the dough and see if the gluten is forming before adding further ingredients.

Is there something more specific you wish to know?

NB. I know from experience that this mixing stage can instil much trepidation, the slightest error in fermentation usually reveals itself at this stage.


Michael

JeannieTay's picture
JeannieTay

Thank you for your prompt reply. 

I always have problems on second dough so hope will be better on next try. 

thanks again, appreciate it 😊

Jeannie. 

JeannieTay's picture
JeannieTay

Thanks Michael, for the recipe..I tried and this is the result... 

amandaharumi's picture
amandaharumi

This looks great! What do you think can interfere to get this kind of crumb other than strong flour? I tried to make a vegan panettone but i only got really small and tight holes and not very "shreaddable". I don't think is the flour because i've made a traditional panettone with the same flour and it was great. Fermenting in a too warm place can interfere? I've used Martino Beria and his panettone pics are amazing, looks just like a normal one

AlehCemy's picture
AlehCemy

I'm planning on making Panettone for Christmas. I want to do a small batch run test before, with Caputo Manitoba flour.

1. Would it be okay using paddles instead of dough spiral? Every time I tried using the dough spiral, no matter hydration or weight of dough, it'll always climb up and become one with the head of the mixer. Or would it be better to use a bread machine for kneading? (I can configure how long it mix and knead for, it's two different phases for the machine). 

2. I suppose the usual order of mixing for the first impasto is flour, sugar water and once it's well mixed, add butter, egg yolks and LM. Correct?

3. Then the order of mixing the second impasto is mixing in very well the flour, then add sugar, egg yolks, honey, salt. Once it's mixed in, add butter in steps. Then at last, water. Once it's well kneaded, then add the fruits. Would that be correct?