Dough didn't rise, despite levain looking good. What to try changing next time?
I followed txfarmer's sourdough sandwich bread recipe, using a levain built with KA bread flour and dabrownman's NMNF 100% whole rye starter and levain build instructions.
Levain looked nice and active. Doubled after the second and third feedings. NMNF starter was active too, although I should note that this was my first time using it, and it was built a few days ago from a new 100% whole rye starter, that was also nice and active.
First sign of something unusual was that the dough didn't seem to rise much at all during the 2 hr bulk ferment on the counter (~76 degF as measured with an accurate thermometer), during which I did 3 stretch and folds. Similarly, no signficant rise overnight in the refrigerator.
I kept it refrigerated for ~22 hours due to my schedule, then shaped per the recipe and proofed at 76-77 degF. I saw very little rise, even after 16 hrs. Hard to say how much, maybe 10-15%. For the last 5 hours I moved it to a warmer spot, 78-80 degF, but it didn't seem to make a difference.
I went ahead and baked at this point, and actually saw quite a lot of oven spring, as you can see in the photos, which went on further into the bake than I'm used to seeing.
This is the dough, just before baking.
For reference, I often make a similar yeasted loaf in this same pan with approximately the same total weight of dough. It rises 1-inch over the top of the pan in ~3 hrs.
Just out of the oven:
And finally here's the crumb:
So, my question is, what happened here, and how to fix it?
I know the next thing I have to do is try again, but it would be great to have an idea of what I should change, rather than guessing blindly.
Alpaca, you wrote, “the dough didn't seem to rise much at all during the 2 hr bulk ferment on the counter (~76 degF as measured with an accurate thermometer)”
The transition from commercial yeast to sourdough takes some adjustments. The biggest adjustment is fermentation timing. Sourdough is much slower than commercial yeast. 2hr BF at 76F is not nearly long enough. Even though your dough spent 16 hr in the fridge, the cool temps slowed down the fermentation tremendously. If. Had to guess, I’d say that the 2 hr BF at 76F was not long enough to get the yeast activated. Then the unactivated yeast were placed in semi hibernation for 16 (or 22) hr.
Next time watch the dough during the BF. Once it has risen ~50% from it’s original size then move it to the f4idge to retard.
Better yet, why not BF to 50% then pre-shape and shape, then placed covered dough into the fridge. That way when you take it out and score, go straight into a preheated oven to bake. Most of us on the forum use this exact technique.
HTH
Dan
Not knowing any better, I was following the recipe. I'll definitely try a much longer bulk ferment next time and watch the dough.
One question. You wrote "Better yet, why not BF to 50% then pre-shape and shape, then placed covered dough into the fridge." So there's no 2nd rise after shaping? Is it all left to the oven spring? Or you expect it to rise slowly in the fridge over many hours?
Depending on how cold your fridge is, the dough may or may not rise at all. 40F or higher, the dough may rise to the degree of the temperature. Warmer = more growth, but don’t expect much in the fridge. It is fermenting slowly. Remember warm gas expands and cool gas doesn’t expand at all or very much.
Have faith, even though it defies common sense.
See THIS LINK. Notice the size of the dough in the third image from the top. All doughs on that page were baked cold, right out of the fridge.
Yes, the gas will expand in the hot oven, causing the much desired oven spring.
Wow, that sure is a difference from commercial yeast. I'll try to keep the faith on my sourdough journey!
I wanted to come back and update this thread as I've managed to arrive at a schedule that works well with my starter for this type of white sandwich bread.
First off, I think I can confirm that Dan was right the fermentation was too short. I had half of this dough left over in the refrigerator, so three days later, I took it out and bulk fermented at room temp for another 6 hours, then shaped and placed in pan to proof at 76-77 degF. It was still very slow, but I gave it time, and 20 hrs later (!), I had a nicely proofed dough which baked up very well with good oven spring.
bake2_tiled.jpg
% of total flour in levain
Proof temp (degF)
Time to proof (h)
10
75
20
19
76
14
35
71
9
(Two notes are that I moved to a slightly different recipe for the 19% and 35% lines - essentially this one, just with levain substituted in place of the poolish, and dropped the temperature for the 35% bake to try and reduce the sourness. I'm sure the reduced temperature slowed things down a bit, but I don't think the recipe change had any effect on the timing).
This 9 hour proof seems reliable as I've baked it a few times now, and it works very well for me as I can start proofing late in the evening and then have bread ready to bake the next morning.
Based on what I've read, it seems like my starter is quite a bit slower than average, but it doesn't matter since the above schedule suits me.