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Tartine puzzles

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Tartine puzzles

Hello all,

 

I'm working with Chad Robertson's techniques, with percentages from both books.  I have been away for some time and am concentrating on one bread - pain au levain.  I am accustomed to a Calvel, 2-stage levain build, with about a 70% hydration and 30% levain in final dough.

I'm sort of a "traditional" freak, interested in culinary history and lore, really, so am not sure "holes" were ever the concern they seem to be in a lot of modern makes.  The French makers' loaves I see have irregular holes, but a much more regular crumb.  That said, I love the breads I get from high hydration and fold-only doughs.

Couple of questions.

Autolyse with levain

In a word, I don't understand why you would do it.  I understand the acidity from levain can help development to some extent, but with such a variable time period - 1-4 hours, I think? - I would think you are effectively fermenting the dough.  Thoughts?

I should mention, I make a dough that is an attempt at cloning T85 flour with 37% sifted WW and 65% Central Mills honeybee.  This is James Maguire's interpretation of Calvel.  I don't add any other flour, with the exception of a small amount of rye (2%) in the second levain build, per Calvel.  I like to autolyse overnight - without leaven.

Low Levain Inoculation and Slow Proof

Going with his original tartine, using 20% levain inoculation (I allowed the levain to mature literally to the point of float test, no more.  "Sweet."), my proof proceeded like....not at all, or so it seemed as I waited the hours for action.  I could see it was developing but truly slowly....at 4 hours, it was nowhere near done. Finally at  4 1/2 hours, with a press test, I thought good enough and did it.  Tasty, but spring was nothing to write home about.

Does anyone else have this experience?  Have any thoughts?

 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

PS:  FWIW, I measured out tbsp's of levain and got two pretty wide readings:  12.9 and 19.1 grams.  I am just presuming an avg and going with 16 grams.  Or 1 tbsp, lol.

HansB's picture
HansB

If you want to follow Calvel, his autolyse times in printed formulas are usually between 13 and 30 minutes.

As for autolyse with a natural leaven, "liquid levain must be incorporated at the beginning of the mixing process even if an autolyse is done because their low yeast content won't really affect the dough strength. However, stiffer preferments with more yeast, such as prefermented dough, should be incorporated after the autolyse." From Advanced Bread and Pastry.

 

Robertson also adds the leaven prior to autolyse.

 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

HI Hans, thanks.

Yes, I have Calvel and I've never done any more than 1/2 hr autolyse myself.  I've also never autolysed with anything but wheat flour and water, so this intrigued me when I came across Tartine.

Do I understand you to mean that according to Suas, if using a liquid levain (such as Robertson's), it has relatively fewer yeast but something like a pâte fermentée will be higher in yeast, and therefore you truly are beginning a bulk ferment during autolysing?  I'm not clear on why that would be, but interested to find out more.  Am I right to conclude the early liquid levain will drop pH while relatively avoiding yeast fermentation?

I should note that I have done really long bulk ferments of 18 hours or so, very little (1%) levain seeding and monitoring pH.  I can't say I appreciated any better sensory characteristics from a standard 3-4 hr bulk ferments.  But I haven't done it enough to know.

Robertson quotes from 1/2 hr to overnight  - with overnight or longer autolyse periods being useful on hard wheat flours or high whole grain bills particularly.  It just seemed odd to me to see such a large window of times, all with levain added early, with apparently little difference in the final ferment.  I try to approximate a T80 with 10.5% protein white and sifted WW, then add 10% of the total wheat flour as WW.  So have enjoyed the long autolyse but never braved adding the levain early, until now.

HansB's picture
HansB

That is what I get from Suas. Interesting that Suas also recommends adding IDY before autolyse, writing that by the time the cells are dissolved into the dough, the autolyse will be almost over.

I have never checked pH, what is the easiest way to do that?

 

Thanks

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Hi Hans -

This is the first I used and likely only time I will use my pH meter for breadmaking - doing such a long ferment (levain built of 12-16 hours, 20 hours bulk + proof, no retardation), I just wanted to watch its acid curve and tried to cut it off at 4.1 or thereabouts.

Honestly I don't think I'll bother again, when it comes to breadmaking.  I like the feel in my hands, the aroma, the taste, as better guides, though they take longer to get a handle on, to me.

I am a true data geek when it comes to brewing and cheesemaking, but both are much tighter in pH optima, so it made sense.  For what it's worth, I use a Milwaukee MW-102, has two probes, one for temp and one for pH.  (It temperature compensates).

The Suas seems like an amazing book.  It's on my cart but afraid at its price point there are a few ahead of it.

Thanks!

HansB's picture
HansB

Thanks for the reply. FYI, I got the Suas ebook on eBay for $4.99. I thought it was a scam but it worked! I don't recall if it was this vendor as it was a couple of years ago. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Advanced-Bread-and-Pastry-A-Professional-Approach-electronic-book/383452457440?hash=item59478c29e0:g:vF4AAOSw2XteUqS7

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Ebooks are not allowed to be re-sold without publisher's permission.  If the seller was the publisher or author, then fine.  Authorized ebook distributors have their own web sites.  If it was some other individual, it was likely bootleg.

By the way, The Kindle edition has been withdrawn from Amazon. So something weird happened.