Thoughts on CY vs SD Flavor
While baking the 100% WW Affordable Loaf on the latest CB, breads have been made using SD only and also a SD levain and a yeast kicker in the Final Dough mix. The flavor profiles between both of these breads are drastically different. The SD only version exhibits the deep, dense, complex flavors that are associated with SD breads. BUT the breads baked with a SD levain (25% PreFermented Flour) and are mixed with some CY in the Final Dough mix are no where near as complex tasting as the former loaves. To my taste this bread is boring and non-eventful. Although, the CY does greatly enhance the openness of the crumb.
Here is my question related to the SD/CY version
- It seems we should expect the SD levain to continue to ferment when mixed into the Final Dough, even though the CY is also causing fermentation. What is causing the flavor of the CY dominate over the SD?
- Is the gas and by products produced by the CY overwhelming the SD?
- Or is the CY rapid fermentation ending the BF before the SD can getup to speed?
Hamelman’s Five-Grain Levain has the option to spike the Final Dough with CY. IMO, this would be a sacrilege.
Dan
What is causing the flavor of the CY to dominate over the SD?
Dan, are you saying that you can taste the CY?
I think so, Hans, but it is more of the fact that the complexities of the SD is missing.
After I wrote the OP and read it, #3 really stands out. The BF and final proof times are cut much shorter because of the CY. Maybe the CY flavor is dominating because of this and also the time necessary to ferment the SD is not available because of the hyper active CY.
I am interested in the opinions of others.
MT, it seems from the few that tried the CY you mentioned, that it is not the real deal.
Danny
Maybe the best option is to retard the dough to slow down the yeast. The flavor profile of things like, no knead bread, pizza crust, baguettes, and others is improved by spending some time in the cold.
Dan, after reading your post I have decided to split today's bake. One will be with 27% Levain the other with 12% Levain and .9% IDY. Results later...
Hans, I used 25% PreFerment Flour for the levain and 0.8% CY. If I were to do the hybrid again, I would cut back the CY. Probably at least in half. My thinking is, it will allow the fermentation to slow down and maybe let the SD ferment longer in the Final Dough. But that is just a hunch.
Danny, my interpretation of the frustratingly overwhelming effect of CY in mixed levains is that CY has been stringently selected by microbiologists at Fleischmanns, SAP, Red Star and others to be unapologetically voracious. They are super competitors in mixed culture and effectively starve everyone else at the table by devouring available carbs at a rate our feeble 'natural' SD yeasts and bacteria cannot possibly compete with. The net effect is that the resident SD bugs stare at empty plates while the CY feasts, resulting in an overwhelmingly CY loaf in taste and structure.
It would be an interesting, if tedious, experiment to titrate the CY in a formula down to a level where their innoculum titre wouldn't put all the SD bugs at such a disadvantage. Like moving the starting line four miles back for all the CY entrants in the marathon. I'm not sure even our spoon scales are accurate enough for such an experiment. Better a laboratory microbalance (google Mettler balance -- only the Bread Lab and Nathan Myhrvold have tho$e in their kitchen$ ?). And our personal SD cultures are probably sufficiently diverse in their microbial profiles and activities that no single result from such an experiment would successfully apply to all our kitchens.
An interesting challenge.
Tom
Tom, allow me to challenge your interpretation.
I question whether the CY are exhausting the carbs to the extent that the sourdough’s food source is depleted. I say this because both the BF and the final proof are terminated way before the fermentation has come to an end. If that were the case there would be no available gas for the final proof and after the final proof, the oven spring.
What do you think about the idea that the CY accelerates the BF and final proof to the degree that the slow moving SD is unable to get in gear and do it’s thing?
I have an idea that seems to make sense to me. Just like the starter needs time and temperature to multiply yeast and LAB in order to build acids and flavors, so does the levain. AND, so does the dough. A highly acidic levain can be mixed into the Final Dough and still not produce a very sour tasting sourdough. I think that many of us mistakenly think that an acidic levain is necessary for an acid (sour) dough. My experience does not bear this out.
I am not implying that starting out with an acidic starter or levain will not have impart more acid (sour flavor) to the final dough. Only that it is important to allow the actual dough the proper time and temperature (warm for lactic, cold for acetic). This is my reasoning for thinking the CY is preventing the time necessary for the SD to do it’s work.
I have a theory that, if almost any healthy starter is used to build a levain and that levain is mixed into the Final Dough, AND left to ferment in a warm environment for a long time, sour flavor will result. Even if the levain was not highly acidic. Exactly as the starter or the levain becomes acid if over fermented or fermented to the max, becomes sour, so does the dough. I inadvertently stumbled upon this while utilizing Teresa Greenway’s method for San Francisco SD.
I welcome the thoughts of others...
Danny
seems we should expect the SD levain to continue to ferment when mixed into the Final Dough, even though the CY is also causing fermentation. What is causing the flavor of the CY dominate over the SD?
I think it is because there are so many more of the CY cells than wild yeast cells -- a higher population.
Is the gas and by products produced by the CY overwhelming the SD?
Yes, In terms of the CY producing more gas/byproducts than what the less populous SD cells produce.
Or is the CY rapid fermentation ending the BF before the SD can getup to speed?
Perhaps not in terms of eating up all the available sugars, but in terms that the CY "got the job done" (ie, enough gas produced) before the wild yeast created sufficient flavorful byproducts to make a taste difference.
But, that said.... I think there does come a time when the CY has multiplied to the point where they can collectively eat sugar faster than what the enzymes can make out of the starch, and like Our Crumb said, they could be out-competing the wild yeast and LAB.
Dan, I think with CY your BF time decreases and LAB do not have a chance to reach their full potential. Most of the flavors you are seeking come from bacteria, not yeast. I think one reason to spike a sourdough with CY is to speed things up, thereby toning down the stronger flavors some folks don't like. It's a matter of preference. You could overcome some of the effects of the CY by sticking with a hand mix, autolyse, multiple folds an extended BF along with a long cold proof. Or...just leave out the CY and let the bacteria have more time to do their magic.
Zuri
Thanks, Zuri. I heard Daniel Leader on a podcast today. He claims that CY can be used in SD with no discernible taste affect, if it is between 1 and 1/2 gram (0.1 x 0.05%) per kilo. The formula I tried called for 0.8%. At that rate the fermentation was too quick. He claims you can’t detect the CY at that small amount. He did claim that the CY did enhance the crumb.
I may give that a try with 100% WW. I don’t foresee this being a regular routine for me. At this time we are featuring 100% WW for our Community Bake.
I am not sure what it means to "enhance the crumb". These things can be so subjective! :)
Makes the crumb more open.
I posted this on the Approachable Loaf bake as well but it explains a lot about how fast the yeast is reacting for some of us. This was copied from The King Arthur Website
Keep in mind, also, the characteristics of your own kitchen. If you bake bread all the time, your kitchen is full of wild yeast, and any dough you make there will rise vigorously. If you seldom bake bread, or are just beginning, your kitchen will be quite “sterile;” your dough won't be aided by wild yeast, and will rise more slowly than it would in a more “active” kitchen.
Here are some guidelines to get you started. If you're an occasional bread baker, cut back the usual 2 to 2 1/2; teaspoons of instant yeast to 1/2 to 1 teaspoon, depending on how long you want to let the dough ferment before the final shape-rise-bake process. 1/2 teaspoon would give you lots of flexibility, such as letting the dough “rest” for 16 to 20 hours; 1 teaspoon would be a good amount for an all-day or overnight rise (10 hours or so, at cool room temperature).
If you're using active dry yeast, which isn't as vigorous as instant yeast, we'd up the range to 3/4 to 1 1/2 teaspoons.
We've found that here in our King Arthur kitchen, where we bake bread every day, we can cut the yeast all the way back to 1/16 to 1/8 teaspoon in a 3-cup-of-flour recipe, and get a good overnight or all-day rise.
Use your judgment in rating your own kitchen as to “yeast friendliness.”