To knead or not to knead... that is the question!!
Is it better to knead by hand or mix with a machine with doughs ranging between 70% - 80% hydration? Im in the process of developing my techniques (standards) to making bread and Im not entirely sure which is best for my application; the home baker. I was hoping the advanced bakers can shed some light on the matter.
Forkish is a proponent of the pincer method + stretch and fold. The results have been satisfactory. However, Advanced Bread + Pastry emphasizes that hand mixing cannot yield proper gluten development and proposes the short mix ( 5 mins on 1st speed) no 2nd speed), Intensive mix (5 mins on 1st speed, 8 mins on 2nd speed) and improved mix (5 mins 1st speed, 5 mins 2nd speed)
Im more than happy to experiment, thats part of the journey but I would love some insight :)
Thank you all,
Theo
Here's my understanding, based on watching (the videos of) and reading bakers like Steve Gamelin ( www.youtube.com/user/artisanbreadwithstev/videos ), Francois/Hertzberg (book/videos Healthy Bread in 5 Minutes a Day), Peter Reinhart, Ken Forkish, Chad Robertson, and my TFL role-model DanAyo:
Time + a few stretch and folds ~~ (more or less equals) developing gluten via a mixer or hand-kneading.
I also recommend watching DanAyo's video on the "slap and fold" technique:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7mXjnPpTDoVJxRdrG3ZeYw/videos
Search for Richard Bertinet (french baker/author) on youtube, and watch his slap-and-fold video. Might go by a different name, french folding, french mixing. It's just a backup or second-source to Dan's, illustrating that it really is a traditional technique.
This "slap and fold" can both mix and develop gluten. But I'm too lazy to do all that.
I usually only want to bake 1 big loaf at a time. I have a mixer, but I'm short on counter space, and have to take it out, and put it away every use. Plus the paddle and dough hook are extra stuff to clean.
So, for me, hand-mixing/waiting/stretch-and-folding is something I can do when I'm home in the evening and can revisit the kitchen several times, do a short bulk, and retard-proof overnight in fridge, and bake in the morning. Or, bulk ferrment overnight (possibly in the fridge), and do a short proof in the morning and bake.
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So, as I see it, using the mixer, and then letting the dough just sit undisturbed during the bulk ferment until you go back to fold/shape/put-in-banneton may save the baker the steps of having to revisit the kitchen 4 or 5 extra times.
The stretch and folds don't take much time in and of themselves, (do it during the TV commercials) but it means you can't go away for more than 30-45 minutes at a stretch over a period of 2 to 3 hours, If you're going to be home anyway, that's fine.
Net-Net: It's all about your personal schedule. And whether you are in a machine-using mood, or a by-hand mood.
(In other words, Do you cut up firewood with an axe and wedge-and-sledge-hammer, or do you use a chainsaw?)
What idaveindy said is accurate. Hand mixing can yield proper gluten development if it is done for long enough. I'd love to see the quotation from advanced bread and pastry that suggests otherwise. If you have enough patience and forearm strength you could mix a high butter content brioche to full development by hand. It just would be a massive work out. There is nothing fundamentally different between the action of a hand and the action of a mixer other than time, effort, and the consistency of the action. Both actions are stretching, folding, and organizing the gluten network while incorporating oxygen.
I tend to make bigger batches and have a 20qt hobart in my house so I typically do a slow or intermediate mix and finish off the development with folds. Other times I'll hand mix just so that I can feel the dough through every step of the process; it's a little more intimate. But it really is a matter of timing and available equipment. You can get pretty similar results both ways.
Its located on page 64. The author of advanced bread and pastry states that hand kneading requires long bulk fermentation time to achieve gluten strength. I've attached a screenshot for your view. Thank you both for the detailed answers. I will watch the videos and incorporate what I learn. I have a kitchen aid 6 qt stand mixer as well.
Screen Shot 2020-01-15 at 3.04.40 PM.png
I think the author is saying "hand mix (or short mix) + ferment time" yields the same result as "machine mix + machine knead (w/dough hook) + a shorter ferment time." Hence.... it's about scheduling and personal preferences.
another factor to consider: extending ferment/proof times also affects flavor. You can get things done _quicker_ with machine-mixing/kneading, and increasing the amount of starter, but you may be sacrificing flavor... all those various acids, esthers, and what-not that get developed by the action of the lactic-acid bacteria and wild yeasts.
There's another trade-off too, in that too long, or too powerful a ferment causes gluten and carbs to break down too much.
The book seems to be saying that hand mixing requires a long bulk ferment to have good gluten development in the bread. Many people on this site are doing hand mix + long bulk ferment and autolyse so there's really no discord.
thank you :).
Like the others have alluded to the author is talking more practically than theoretically. Practically speaking it doesn't make sense to try to reach full gluten development through hand mixing. In general if you are hand mixing it probably means you are doing longer fermentation and using folds to develop strength. Theoretically speaking, however, it is entirely possible to mix to full development by hand. I have hand mixed brioche once...it was a pretty long process. I probably got the dough to the high end of an intermediate mix, gave it 1 hour of bulk fermentation and then made doughnuts out of them. They came out great, but it was a lot of effort. I suppose if the author wanted to be extremely accurate they could re-word the statement and without changing the overall message it could be made a little more close the the theoretical truth of the matter. It's accurate enough and conveys the right message though. Not too many people are stupid enough to hand mix brioche, I'm just special like that ;)
Sometimes if I'm working with a formula in a home setting for the first time I prefer hand mixing just so that I can get a good feel for the dough and make water adjustments. Of course you can make these adjustment while using a mixer as well but you have a little more time to do it when mixing by hand and are more in tune with the dough since your hands are constantly feeling the development.
Since Advanced Bread and Pastry is targeted more towards bakeries or larger scale bakings (I own it too), I would always take these statements with a pinch of salt.
In the end I would say it depends on the amount and type of dough as well as your strength/patience. Brioche dough with hand? No way! Standard sourdough bread or baguette? Sure (if it's not like 3 kg of dough).
But even an autolyse + no kneading + a lot of stretch & fold can yield great results. Another advantage of hand kneading is that it's basically impossible to overknead since you will give up way before that happens.
Personally, I would always prefer my KitchenAid because I just can't be bothered to knead it per hand :D And I have a feeling it's more consistent. I would say, if you have a machine, why not use it? ;)
sentiments exactly I have a Kitchen Aid as well. I do enjoy learning the feel of the dough with hand. Also, I think mixing the floud, water and IDY + autolyse by danish dough whisk is the best way. Great insights from you and everyone
Hi Theo, You have rec’d some very good replies, but there is one consideration that most often causes me to avoid machine mixing. That is taste. If your dough is mixed too much, it will oxidize. Over oxidized dough will lose enough flavor to be very noticeable. It is often written that it is almost impossible to over oxidize dough when mixing by hand.
Don’t get me wrong. It is very possible to use a mixer and not harm the flavor of the bread. But if you mix your dough in a mixer to complete gluten development as described in Advanced Bread and Pastry you will compromise the flavor.
So, a mixer is nice, but if you are willing to give the dough time and throw in some stretch and folds, slap and folds, or some similar manipulation you can make fantastic bread in every respect. For many of us, who are obsessed sourdough bakers, the whole hands on process is part of the mystique...
The great thing is, you can produce fantastic results using a machine or your hands. You get to choose.
Danny
Thank you Danny.. Also great videos on youtube. I hope to start sourdough baking soon. Just trying to get my feet wet on the simpler straight doughs
Great thread, thanks. I posted a related question (to my query) on another thread, but I'm trying to emulate Calvel closely, from his Taste of Bread.
His pain au levain gets 5 min. hydration, 30 min. autolyze, 5 min. mixing w/o levain, rye, salt, finally 6 min. mixing. All on 1st speed. I find the dough is so sticky and slack I want to go another two minutes, again on low. It strengthens some, but not enough for my taste.
I'm looking, but can only find one cursory reference to folding in his book, and that's just a photo caption. He has a short bulk (50 min.) and a long secondary (4-5 hours), with no folding anywhere (at least not listed).
I find I need at least one fold during bulk, so I do it at 25 minutes. Today, for whatever reason, the dough felt lower in strength and I did two folds, 25, 50 then extended the bulk to 75 minutes before pre-shaping, molding and proofing. My calc of the overall hydration is quite modest (60.6%) so I'm a bit perplexed at the slackness coming out of the mixer, with this length of mixing times - admittedly at low.
I have a KA, can't recall model, but I think it's 7 quarts or so. It's been my workhorse over many years.
Perhaps the book's times are based on another method, e.g., spiral mixers?
At any rate, 3 questions. I'm still digging to find more.
Calvel doesn't really get into folding from what I can tell. Folding is traditional, yes? Any thoughts on Calvel's views on folding for artisanal breads?
Any thoughts on folding midway on a short bulk ferment like this (i.e., usually only 1 fold midway, at 25 minutes)?
FInally, not directly related but it relates as I usually rely on Hamelman, a longer bulk with folds, and a shorter proof. Any thoughts on why one would vary times between bulk and proofing? I.e., it's all fermentation - why would one do 50 min. bulk/4-5 hour proof for a pain au levain, and not the other way around, or close to it? My estimation is this dough would benefit by at least 3 if not 4 folds...hence wondering why such a short bulk.
FWIW, just finished rest of 30 minute and the dough shaped up beautifully. 2 fold, 75 min. bulk and into proof now.
Long, sorry. Thanks again for the thread, OP.
As you guessed, Calvel was probably using a spiral mixer. There are some videos of his breadmaking on Youtube which may give clues.
Planetary mixers aren't as good as spiral ones at developing gluten, so you will need to increase mixing time considerably - maybe double, plus define "1st speed" on a planetary mixer - on a spiral it is traditionally 100rpm spiral speed.
I think stretch and folds are probably a relatively recent invention - perhaps hand in hand with the trend towards higher hydration doughs.
Lance
Thank you albacore, makes perfect sense. I'd forgotten the total revolutions comparisons. Somewhere I had this KA's rpm figured out, but all my bread stuff (french alpine cheese logs, brewing logs, pics of all these.....toast when hard drive crashed on previous computer. Awesome).
I'm looking at the Ankarsrum, though it will be awhile. I can't recall the make but years ago I had an Italian make planetary, run by straps as opposed to gears. Very much prefer the durability. I also like to make at least 2 Kgs dough, and I'm really pushing it on the KA.
Thank you again.
New here... getting back into baking after a long hiatus and wondering...
are there quality differences that we can ascribe to kneading methods? Specifically between no-knead (but 18-24 hour ferment), slap and fold or other hand kneading and using a mixer?
I get the practical differences and of course a lot of other things will affect loaf quality, but presuming those are held constant, what do folks here find gives the best result for what I think of as basic breads (flour/salt/water/yeast)? No brioche, no other additions, just good basic stuff.