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What are the benefits/drawbacks/effects of doubling or halving the amount of starter?

Morus's picture
Morus

What are the benefits/drawbacks/effects of doubling or halving the amount of starter?

I have only baked sourdough breads 5 times so I'm very new to the witchcraft (sort of hahaha...) of sourdough and I'm quite new to baking in general. I have searched our excellent forum but couldn't find good answers to my following questions (or my searching skills are sub-par...).

Suppose I know how to make a sourdough bread along the lines of the formula 1:2:3 that I'm fairly content with in terms of taste, rise, air holes etc : 

  • 100 g starter (50 g organic wholemeal rye, 50 g water)

  • 200 g water
  • 300 g flour (50 g organic wholemeal rye, 250 g bread flour) 

 

Suppose I would double the amount of starter (maintaining hydration and flour proportions, resulting in a formula 2:1.5:2.5):

  • 200 g starter (100 g organic wholemeal rye, 100 g water)

  • 150 g water 
  • 250 g flour (250 g bread flour) 

Q1: What can I expect of such a doubling of starter?

 

Reversely, suppose I would halve the starter (maintaining hydration and flour proportions, resulting in the funny looking formula 0.5:2.25:3.25):

  • 50 g starter (25 g organic wholemeal rye, 25 g water)

  • 225 g water
  • 325 g flour (75 g organic wholemeal rye, 250 g bread flour)

Q2: What can I expect of such a halving of starter?

 

 

Thanks :-)

 

BaniJP's picture
BaniJP

If you maintain hydration and proportion, primarily you should just experience a faster or slower rise, respectively.

However, if a larger or smaller part of the dough is prefermented, that will affect how extensible and elastic the dough is, due to more or less developed gluten. Keep in mind that too much can weaken the dough, though.
Also it affects a little how digestible the final bread will be.

My standard recipe has a 1 : 1,2 : 2 ratio (starter : water : flour) and it's a great dough to work with. Though I could probably reduce starter amount a little and improve the overall strength, but then it would take even longer (takes about 5-6 hours BF in the winter).

Morus's picture
Morus

Thanks... What can be expected in terms om taste change in the two scenarios?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The longer the fermentation, the better the flavor. UP TO a certain point. Over-fermenting will over acidify your dough and may degrade the gluten.

Morus's picture
Morus

Great... Now I think I'm getting to understand...

 

Would you say that the halving of the starter I outline for Q2 is too little starter which gives too long fermentation time which in turn, as you say, will over acidify my dough and degrade the gluten?

 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

You can overferment a dough with any amount of starter. Smaller amounts will take longer to overferment and larger amounts faster. 

What is your goal in changing the levain percentage? 

Unless you are experiencing great success after only 5 bakes, you would probably succeed faster if you stayed with the formula.

Morus's picture
Morus

Well, my goal is not to change the amount of starter, I just want to know what the effects are if I do....

If I for instance read, here on TFL or elsewhere, "that's too much starter"... I want to know how much is too much and what happens if too much starter is used,

And specifically, suppose I have only half as much starter or double amount of starter compared to the amount of bread I want to make and the formula I want to use - then, if I have good answers to Q1 and Q2, I could make educated alterations of the formula (times, temperatures, hydration level etc.) and hopefully still make a success of it.

 

 

BaniJP's picture
BaniJP

I have seen recipes that call for 100% starter, so there doesn't seem to be a limit. In the end, it also depends on your starter, your environment etc., so we can't answer your questions for sure. 
Doubling the starter will mostly result in a faster rise, maybe also a better gluten structure and chewier crumb.
Halving it will mostly result in a slower rise.

I would simply do a few test batches and see how they go. That's the only way you will know for sure and experience the effects first-hand.

 

Maverick's picture
Maverick

There is a surprising difference in flavor between those (if you use a mature starter). If you use a young starter, then I am not sure only because I prefer the flavor a mature starter gives. This is because of the difference in bulk fermentation time and the lag of the activation of LABS (Debra Wink discusses these things here http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/14913/very-liquid-sourdough#comment-99010). I also found the crumb to be a little chewier when more starter is used, but that might just be me. If you look at basic sourdough recipes, you will notice that hydration and flour from preferment are the main differences (with hydration being less varied these days).

The interesting thing here (at least to me) is how people spend a lot of time discussing the treatment of the starter changing the sourness of the bread. But really the dough can be manipulated in either direction of sourness with the starter being less of a factor (except the difference between a young starter and mature starter being quite different to me). I suggest you try out different amounts of starter and see which you like more.

Morus's picture
Morus

How would you then describe the surprising difference in flavor between those (if I use a mature starter)?

 

(Thanks for pointers to Debra Wink; I am interested in controlling (well... I'd settle for affecting in desired direction) the acidity and the rise of my loaves ). 

Maverick's picture
Maverick

The main difference is the sour flavor. Generally, the smaller the amount of flour from the starter, the more acetic acid type of sour you get (like vinegar sour). There is a range where the bread seems more mild. But the strange thing is that at a certain point it seems to get sour again. But it is more of a lactic acid type of sour I guess (like yogurt sour). Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between these sours though. I have rarely (if ever) pushed my bread past 30% flour from the starter. Note that I am not talking about percentage of starter, but the amount of total flour that comes from the starter (I think you understand that based on your first post). I regularly use a poolish of 35%, but never a sourdough starter for some reason.

One thing I haven't played with for a while is firm vs liquid starter along with varying the percentage of flour from the starter. I seem to remember DiMuzio giving two different amounts based on the type of starter for his SF sourdough bread (like 30% preferment flour for a firm/60% hydration starter, but 20% for a liquid/100% hydration starter). His hydration stayed the same for both though at 68% (and 2% salt of course).

I guess it is time for me to start playing around with this again... lately I have been more focused on increasing whole grain, but I think I might go back to the basics for this week's bake.

Morus's picture
Morus

Interesting. More is less... Well more starter speeds up the risetime and reduces time the LABs have to produce acids, right? (Its not all clear to me yet, I'm still reading what Debra Wink and others have to say on the topic.) 

Doubling (as described in my Q1) is about 30% fermented flour. I guess I should try that and see where it takes me (hopefully less sour and at least less acetic sour according to what you say, right?).

About stiff and liquid starter, Wink writes that stiff will favor yeast and a liquid will favor LAB, but that is probably something you already know.