The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Stretch & Fold...?

Stig's picture
Stig

Stretch & Fold...?

I see in many recipes that during the bulk fermentation stage it requires a series of 3 or 4 sets of "stretch & folds" at say 30 minute intervals. 

My question is...

For how long would you typically stretch and fold or for how many folds would you do?

As I understand this develops the gluten an also incorporates air in much the same way as folds and butter do in puff pastry, so my train of thought is thus...

In puff pastry it's usually around 6 folds to get a nice amount of layers going. So does similar apply here with bread ?

 

Thanx in advance 

Stig 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Typically a stretch and fold consists of 4 folds. 1 set of 2 letter folds going width ways and another set of 2 letter folds going up and down. 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Here's Forkish with a demo, plus explanation of how to see/feel the parameters of how far to stretch and how many S&Fs to do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQHuWDEo3SA

Here's Forkish's entire 11-video playlist showing his method: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWqTac5vy0cfmXcQgnMAZl6z69kpmUzBI

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Here's a "_slap_ and fold" kneading technique that replaces the 3 times "wait-30-minutes-then-stretch-and-fold" technique, less time, but more physical work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euPwDmgF5lQ

old baker's picture
old baker

Perhaps I should change my name from Old to Lazy.  I readily admit to being both old and lazy.  I firmly believe that if a task can be accomplished by a machine, better to use than do it by hand.

I was researching the difference between hand kneading vs using a mixer.  In every case I found online, the conclusion is that there is NO difference in the end product.  Two minutes of kneading with a dough hook on a planetary mixer (speed 2) is equal to 10-12 minutes of kneading by hand.  Saves the wrists and time.  The only caveat is not to overdo it and heat the dough too much.

If you're of the Mother Earth school and love the Zen of hand kneading, do it.  Me, I enjoy the final product more than the process.

Also, when I feed my starter, I use a small hand-held electric mixer to incorporate the added flour and water.  It certainly works better to break up and incorporate those flour balls.  If the container is small, I use a single wire beater rather than both.

BaniJP's picture
BaniJP

It really depends on how strong the dough is and how strong you want it to be. Not only the amount of folds depends on it, but also how often you do stretch & folds. Especially if you are working with high hydration or low quality bread flour, it might need a few more folds.
One set of stretch & fold usually means folding the dough over itself four times, from top, bottom, left and right. 

Folds for puff pastry and croissant dough have a completely different purpose, you can't compare it with bread dough.

old baker's picture
old baker

But I don't do fluffy pastries nor other special things.  Only basic breads with FWSY.

BaniJP's picture
BaniJP

I would just start out with doing a set of folds once per hour and see where that leads. You need a starting point and from there you can decide if future doughs need more folds or less :)

Stig's picture
Stig

For all the info and thank you too idaveindy for the vid links I will look at them later.

old baker's picture
old baker

To test my lazy method, I made two loaves of SD bread, one kneaded by hand, the other by a mixer.  I couldn't detect any difference in crust, crumb, or flavor.  The dough from the mixer method may have been a little slacker, but that's all.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

How much did you develop the gluten in the mixer?
Is it possible you over mixed causing the slack dough?
Did you do anything to the dough after mixing? Such as stretch & folds, etc.

Can you provide images of both loaves?

I’d like to learn from your work.

Danny

Stig's picture
Stig

Yes very good point  DanAyo I would also like to see a comparison if you managed to get images. 

How long also was a typical knead in the mixer ? 

Stig

old baker's picture
old baker

The first loaf (hand kneaded) was eaten a few days ago without taking any images.  The second loaf was machine mixed for about two minutes compared to 10-12 minutes by hand in the first.  Both loaves followed the recipe by Alex, the nutty baker.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APEavQg8rMw&feature=youtube  Both doughs were somewhat slack; the second maybe a tad slacker.  It would be interesting if there was a means to measure slackness.  But the end results were the same.  The loaves looked exactly like the bread Alex made.

Maverick's picture
Maverick

If you don't want to do as many stretch and folds then I would recommend that  you do your 2+  minutes with a mixer (after and autolyse), then do a couple stretch and folds during bulk fermenation. This is still a pretty relaxed way to do it. The dough  won't be as slack that  way and you get the best of both worlds.

old baker's picture
old baker

Sounds like a plan.  But anything to eliminate 10-15 minutes of hand kneading.  I have tendonitis in one wrist and don't know if the other can go for that amount of time.

Maverick's picture
Maverick

I don't use a mixer most of the time but I still don't do hand kneading any more. Between the  autolyse and stretch and folds, time does the work for me. The one nice thing about  a mixer is you can use the paddle to get the initial flour and water together and then the hook (or paddle if wet enough) for incorporating the salt after the autolyse. I do use  a mixer more often when I do commercial yeast doughs though. But I almost always do sourdough these days.