The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

I finally got my hands on an Ankarsrum. Fellow bakers, request your help

Brotokoll's picture
Brotokoll

I finally got my hands on an Ankarsrum. Fellow bakers, request your help

Hi everyone, 

I got the Ankarsrum assistent today. Request fellow bakers to help me understand how to use it to mix dough. Roller scraper is the best way or use the dough hook? I will be watching the videos available on YouTube, but people who have been there done that, your inputs would be greatly appreciated. I will be using it to make dough for Bread. Especially Sourdough. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Have you mixed dough with your Ank yet? If you have problems, let us know what they are.

It seems the typical problem is getting the ingredients to initially mix. I love Ashley McCord, and she has been extremely helpful to me. But her YouTubes didn’t help me much.

Doc, aka Doc.Dough taught me something recently about mixing with an Ank, that was super nice. Let me paraphrase. Use your scraper and roller.  Set the roller so that is is off the rim. Put your dough water and levain in the bowl and mix until incorporated. After add the flour in the bowl all at once. Start on the slowest speed (to stop ingredients from flying out) and then quickly bring the speed up to the sixth mark on the speed dial. Mix until a shaggy mass is form, approximately 1 minute. Put your salt on top of the fermentolyse dough so that you don’t forget it. Then (this is important) let the dough rest covered for 20 minutes. Finally finish mixing the dough on speed 3 for 3 minutes or so. Timing can and will vary slightly. It depends upon how quickly your scraper and roller sync. Or until medium gluten development is attained. This is the best mixng instructions I have ever used for my Ankarsrum.

Maybe Doc will see this and add something or make correction if needed.

Let us know how we can help. You’ve got a great mixer...

Danny

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

With total dough weights below about 1800g, the roller and scraper work fine.  At around 1800g the dough may start climbing up and fouling the roller drive wheel.  So if that is a problem, switch over to the dough hook.

Dan's description of my approach is close.  I weigh the levain, water, and flour as I put them into the bowl.  Then I transfer the bowl to the mixer and install the scraper (only). Turn on the motor and set it to a low enough speed that you don't get flour flying all over (typically 2 or 3) for 30 sec or so (just until the flour is fully wet), then turn up the speed to 6 and mix (still with the scraper only) for the remainder of 1 minute.  Now remove the scraper, put the salt on top of the dough so you don't forget it and cover it with a shower cap or bowl cover.

I then let it sit for a 20 min autolyse before I do the final mix at speed 6 (with both roller and scraper) for however long it takes to get a dough that has pulled itself off the side of the bowl and is almost totally smooth.  This may be 3 minutes (rarely and only with low hydration dough), to a more typical 6-7 minutes for a ~70% hydration dough and a fairly strong flour, to 12-18 minutes for a sloppy high hydration ciabatta or coccodrillo (80-100% hydration).

Expect to take 6 months to convert your formulas over to the new mixer.  It is a different beast and without some experience you can't predict exactly how it is going to work.  You can see an interesting instability that developed while I was mixing a small batch of bagels at 55% hydration with the roller and scraper at this YouTube link.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I am going to have to try the scraper only for the shaggy mass. I may have misunderstood the instructions you sent. I love learning...

Broto, when watching the video, keep in mind that the dough is 55% hydration. Wetter doughs won't behave exactly the same way. At least not in my experience. What do you say about that Doc?

Great video, Doc!

Brotokoll's picture
Brotokoll

Thanks again for being so helpful Dan! That's why I love this forum. How has your experience been with mixing 100% WW? I am very excited about getting this machine, just need some hand holding to get a hang of it. The last batch was mixed for 30 minutes until the machine became warm which made the dough become warm. Then it was back to good ol' Slap and Folds to get desired results. Was hoping that the machine would do all the work. Hopefully you won't mind me picking your brains for tips on the Ankarsrum or Sourdough (I promise not to go overboard.) 

Brotokoll's picture
Brotokoll

Wow! Thank you so much! I had put in a kilo of flour with 90% Bread Flour and 10% WW. Hydration was 68% and salt at 2.3%. It mixes dough beautifully but the machine became warm after 30 minutes and the Gluten had medium development. I did 15 minutes of Slap and Folds to get the dough to the required suppleness. I was hoping that the Ankarsrum could get me the desired Windowpane. Have you been able to achieve great Gluten development with the help of the machine itself? 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

30 minutes is way too long.

Please answer the following questions to help us understand your situation.

  1. Have you successfully used a mixer before to develop gluten to your target stage
  2. What stage of development are you attempting to achieve
  3. How are you determining the stage of gluten development 
  4. Have you used your present flour to develop the gluten you desire in the past

If you are accustomed to mixing dough with another type of mixer, there is a definite learning factor to using an Ank.   I don’t foresee any scenario where you would mix a dough for 30 minutes. After using an Ank for +2 years, I’ve never had it run warm.

Allowing the hydrated flour to rest a while before final mixing will make the kneading process much more efficient.

Let’s FaceTime today at 11:30. Maybe you could mix some flour and water while FaceTiming and I can watch and comment. 

Like anything else, it is only difficult until you learn...

Danny

Brotokoll's picture
Brotokoll

Oh wow! Yeah we could FaceTime and mix the dough. 

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

for your 1Kg of flour + 680g water you are under the notional 1800g and can use the roller and scraper. Is that what you did? And at what speed did you run it for 30 min?  That sounds extraordinarily long. Should be at speed 6 and it should take 6-7 min. 

Brotokoll's picture
Brotokoll

I ran it at speed 6,got medium Gluten development and okayish Windowpane. Bread Flour has 12% Gluten. Yes it went on for 30 minutes and became really warm. I know this machine takes time to get used to, so I thought it best to ask for advice on how to run it. Also I didn't Autolyse the flour before I switched on the machine 

Brotokoll's picture
Brotokoll

Yes I used the Roller Scraper 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

First,  congrats on the mixer, it is a beauty.  As Danny says,  30 minutes is far too long.  Unlike some,  I didn't find it was that difficult to get used to the Ank,  I had used a KA, and a Bosch Universal before, and every mixer has its nuances.

Nearly everything I make is 100 % whole wheat ( home milled ).   I normally autolyse for 1 hour, then knead in the machine for 4 to 6 minutes.  What I am looking for is for the dough to go from a rough shaggy appearance to getting a smooth exterior.  One of the best  signs that it is done is when you go to take the dough out of the bowl  ( I lift it out , with the bowl sitting on the counter ) is for the dough to come  out in one mass, with nothing stuck to the roller.  I normally do a cold bulk ferment - 8 to 10 hours at 52 F  ,  so even if it is not a window pane coming out of the mixer ,  it develops more strength in BF.  I sometimes do a S & F or two at 20 minutes intervals after coming out of the mixer, sometimes not -  depending on how much time I have on hand, and how the dough feels

My use of the mixer is different from Doc and Danny,  I dump everything in, usually flour first, then turn on the machine at the slowest speed, and push the roller to the center a few times during the first minute or so to make sure it has picked up all the flour.   I then increase speed, and when I have the time, once or twice during mixing I either use a spatula to flick the dough off the back of the scraper, or I push the scraper in so that most of the dough ball goes behind it and drags the little that is stuck behind the scraper.  Neither of these is necessary, but without it,  the small amount that sticks to the back of the scraper doesn't get kneaded as well.  Most of the time I just set it for 4 or 5 minutes at kneading speed and just come back after it has shut off to see if it is done.

You are right that if it goes too long, and 30 min is definitely too long, the dough will start to get slack and gooey .  I can usually rescue it with a series of 4 S & F. 

 

Brotokoll's picture
Brotokoll

Thanks Barry! Yeah, I will definitely take all this into account. I don't know if the ambient temperature might be an issue too since I'm in the tropics. My Mockmill 200 is about to reach me in a day or two so that's when I start milling my own Wheat. Hopefully I could pick your brains too to understand the nuances of this Stand Mixer when it comes to mixing WW

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Yes,  ambient temp definitely plays a role in kneading.  Some mill and use directly from the mill, others mill and freeze the flour, then use it from the freezer.  I normally keep some in the freezer and find that holds its structure much better, at least during kneading, never paid enough attention to see if it has an impact on the final loaf. 

Brotokoll's picture
Brotokoll

Thanks Barryvabeach. Appreciate your help :)

bigcrusty's picture
bigcrusty

Dear Brotokoll,  I've been using my Ankarsrum for about 9 years now and made many loaves of sourdough breads including Rye, Polish Country (mix of white and rye sourdoughs), Wheat, Dark German Pumpernickel, and the Pompeii recipe(British Museum) for spelt and buckwheat bread the Romans made.  I've also made straight breads Ciabatta, Cinnamon and Kaiser Rolls and Cinnamon Raisin.  You've got a great machine for mixing large amounts of dough ( I do 4 loaves c.1.5 lbs.)  Here are a few things I found out that were different with the Ankarsrum.  Start with the liquid Water (first), then add the Leavens and do a gentle mix.  After that then add the flour and salt.  I get it thoroughly mixed and then speed it up quite a bit (⅔ rd - ¾ of max and watch for the dough to come off the bowl.  I then wait 15 - 30 min. and put it onto my dough onto the board for several folds.  I then put it into a well oiled bowl, cover with plastic and put into my bread refrigerator/proofer for 2-4 hours at 43degrees F.  Then I soaked the bowl with liquid dish detergent, clean and dry it and put it away.  After proofing it goes back onto my board to slice the dough, work it into loaves and put into bannetons (again covered in plastic) for 1 - 1.5 hours.  Prior to coming out of the refrigerator I place my baking stone and a metal broiling pan in the oven while bringing it up to temperature (most breads between 460 - 500F.  After getting the oven to temperature and bringing out the bannetons. I turn the loaves out onto parchment paper on my baking peel, score them and put them in the oven. Just prior to that I put 2 cups of boiling water onto the broiling pan to generate some steam in the oven.  After putting the loaves into bake I seal the oven with bungee cords to keep as much steam in there as possible.  If I haven't bored you too much with the details I am happy to share my recipes.  Let me know if you want them and Good Luck with your Ankarsrum.  It's a wonderful matching and will give you many delicious breads.       Big Crusty

Brotokoll's picture
Brotokoll

Thanks Bigcrusty! You fellas have been a huge help. With this beaut, I believe it is practice makes perfect. So yeah, it's time to make my hands doughy.