The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

upper half of bun is gone!

Onlybuns's picture
Onlybuns

upper half of bun is gone!

recently been seeing these huge gaps and wonder what would be the reason.

fat 6~10 %

1.5~2% instant yeast.

sugar  .9~13%

gluten 1~2%

salt 1.5~1.8%

improver as instruction

milk powder full fat  3%

hydration 52~58%

dough temp after mixing 26-28c

resting 10 min and shape or divide and rest for 30  mim then shape.

proofer 33c   75~80humidity

been on this years now, but cant believe how persistant the problem is.

i make thousands everyday and post the variation to the recipe to let you know i changed  from less to more or otherway, still find this almost everytime.

i have two divider moulder with very different mechanism, happened on both and even with hand shaping and dividing.

anyone has experienced this before and probably know how to solve my problem ?

 

DeanSamson's picture
DeanSamson

Have you tried reducing the mixing time for the dough? Sometimes if the dough is over developed it can collapse. I had this problem while working on sourdough bread at another bakery. Took me a long time to solve. 

Onlybuns's picture
Onlybuns

yes i did today in fact, one with lower hydration 52%  and holes were less but still there. another one at 56% and the holes were quite bigger so i guess hydration+mixing time could really affect the internal structure.

wheatbeat's picture
wheatbeat

My first instinct is that your oven temperature is a bit too high and you are essentially getting a mini-Pita pocket in the middle. Have you tried reducing the temp and baking longer? I'm assuming these go in a convection oven with no steam?

Onlybuns's picture
Onlybuns

i bake with no steam at 200c

tried all the way down to 175 and still.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

To make pitas, an early dividing and shaping is essential to make the pocket.  Just like the recipe.  Try letting the mixed dough rest to rise some before dividing, deflating well and shaping and see if that helps.

wheatbeat's picture
wheatbeat

Then it could be several other variables. You mention an improver. What is it? Ascorbic acid? Do you know your percent protein with the flour and are you mixing to improved or intense? I know it's a bunch of questions, but so many different things can cause this problem. Right now I am thinking that if your protein is pretty high, plus an improver plus an intense mix, it all comes together creating this pocket. 

Onlybuns's picture
Onlybuns

actually all of your queations have crossed my mind, yes my improver has ascorbic acid.

i use as they asked, .3~.5% and used to put double that for yeaes with no problem.

i mix intensively ( the dough stretch real wide)

i live in very hot area and in the summer i tend to use more ice so maybe that had me mix even more before the dough got mature.

also i start to add vital gluten about 1% but that seems unnecessaryand will try tomorrow without. at least that what i was doing for long time.

lastly the flour protein is around 11% and its difficult to figure out exact percent as it filled in 50 kgs bags from the government who is importing from usa, ukrine, australia.. etc  

all i know is they list on their website spec for ot which is 11% sometimes little more.

 

wheatbeat's picture
wheatbeat

Yes, there is a lot here to consider. I would go with the idea that your dough is too strong and overly developed for what you need. If I were you, I would try an experiment on one batch to see if it gets rid of the problem and then bring things back to the way they were gradually until you figure out the problem (assuming the experimental batch had no hole). That means:

1. Increase your fat

2. Eliminate the improver

3. No VWG

4. Mix to improved not intense

5. Decrease proof time or proof temperature

Onlybuns's picture
Onlybuns

no vwg, different improver, more fat and mixed untill good enough windowpane but not extremly stretchy. i made one with no improver but tbis one should be okay. 

appreciate the help. it means alot!

wheatbeat's picture
wheatbeat

So what was the result when you made those changes? I'm curious, obviously!

Onlybuns's picture
Onlybuns

I'm sorry. should have posted the result..

made two batches; one with different improver and the second without an improver, both has no vwg and both came without gaps but honestly i think i havent checked all of them so my judgement was on a haste. next batches are sometimes with and somwtimes without holes.

i started to grease the parchment paper to make sure the surface isnt holding the bun and making it goes up instead of sides.

made the mix to developled only and rest for 5~10 min before put it into divider rounder machine. still there.

 

i have no idea if this is because of the beat up the dough? vwg? improver acting up? oven blowing the heat in a way that affect the bun?

if this keep going then my business is at risk.

DeanSamson's picture
DeanSamson

Hi onlybuns, 

I made bread rolls for years at my old bakery. Using a W P roll plant. I would say the best practice when we did them was soon as the dough has been mixed divide it straight away then let them rest for 10 minutes to relax the gluten and ready for pinning (if you flatten them). We never once seen flying tops on rolls. What's the scaling weight of the dough pieces. If your only seeing them intermittently it's obvious a process issue. The sugar in the recipe seems a little high to me i would cut that back to around 2 to 4 percent. Sugar will obviously give the yeast a kick. Perhaps your yeast is spent by the time it's going in the oven and not having enough life left. Where are you based? Thanks 

Onlybuns's picture
Onlybuns

I live in Saudi Arabia, my plant head from Trima (fortuna).

Ive been using sugar around 9% to 13% with no problems for years.

I mix and rest 5 to 10 min before using the divider and flying tops happen with 40 g all the way 110 g.

is 20g/kilo flour seems too much for instant yeast?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

yes.  14g per kilo for lean dough.  Try reducing it to 18g and see if it helps. 

Onlybuns's picture
Onlybuns

 those sample from today production,  after dividing then i rest for 30 minutes to reshape completely and degase well. still the devils presence on my site.

 

  • this one with 2% vwg
Onlybuns's picture
Onlybuns

the matter totally was about proofing time, i let it proof little extra and problem went away. the dough is expanding before it complete fully strands and oven heat will force it to expand and the rupture occures in that case.

hope this post help out anyone might go through the same.

Onlybuns's picture
Onlybuns

After searching many articles where it could be the same issue here, I have come to a conclusion and i feel ashamed of honestly .. baking for years and couldnt catch this (assuming it is the reason now)

I believe this is due to under proofing and my support to this theory will be: 

i stopped using molds and start using parchment and somehow i used to take the look as my sign of baking. though dent test always used but doesnt seem to give me exact answer since my dough condition (amountof fat and hydration level).

 

when i rest more it gives usually bigger volume and still baking it before it should will result in even bigger holes, and that what i noticed in the recent sample.

 

i will be posting my result after two days to confirm this.

Onlybuns's picture
Onlybuns

made this with

-54% Hydration

-no wvg

-not over mixing

-rest 10 min before divide and round

-yeast 15g/kilo (instant).

 

 

I use roll plant.

Onlybuns's picture
Onlybuns

more proofing countered abit the flying top  but not completely gone..