dough with 80% starter
Did anyone try this before? building a sourdough starter in steps until 80% of the final pizza dough's flour is used in the starter, leave it to over ferment a bit, then mix in the remaining 20% flour, ball, rest a bit then shape and proof in trays ?
I'm trying this today. I started with 10g seed taken from a NMNF jar of a stiff mother that I leave in fridge for months with no feeding. Then build up my starter from there in several steps. I usually prepare a 20% starter this way,but this time I'm trying the opposite: 80% starter
The idea is to get max sour taste. But the problem is that when I leave the dough to reach that sourness, it looses the rise effect in oven and comes out tasting rich and beautiful, but flat. The more complex taste, the more flat it gets.
So I thought.. why not leave aside 20% of the flour, so that when the dough over ferment (and consequently loses its power) I then add that ramaining 20% flour to re-feed the dough to regain its strength , and I want to catch that strength in the same oven trays so as not to loose the rise from the new power obtained from those 20% food.
I'm curious if anyone tried this technique before ?
This is a common practice. The first stage is also known as a sponge, biga, poolish, levaine (pardon any spelling errors) and other names. All basically a stage of fermentation for flavor, and then the rest of the recipe for structure. Works well.
Yes, but is it common to use 80% of the recipe's flour in the preferment ?
You'll have to try it and see if it gives the results you're looking for with your particular ingredients. If not, adjust as needed.
How did it turn out?
Well FWIW, the FWSY book has a recipe for an 80% biga bread that is amazing but that is obviously made with yeast. Another thing you could try is using the Pate Fermente or “old dough” technique of continuously using leftover dough to develop flavor over time. You can even freeze the old dough so it won’t over ferment and also to extend shelf life.
I applaud your spirit.
The problem I see is that 20% fresh flour will not contain enough non-degraded gluten to make it have the rise you're looking for.
Here's an idea, just spitballing: you know how people make marble breads, like marble rye? Do that with the overfermented dough, and fresh dough. You may have to use like 60/40 instead of 80/20. I've never tried this, but it seems logically sound.
Thanks for your kind words
I have no idea about marble bread. What is it?
you mean I make 2 doughs, one over-ferment and mix it with another dough at peak time?
No, more like a braided loaf, like a challah. Except that instead of using all the same dough, you use half overfermented dough, and half nicely fermented dough that will alllow the other dough to ride on it as it rises in the oven. So, maybe make thin strands, but more from your nice dough, and thicker ones but less from the overfermented dough. I think that will give you a structure that will work for this experiment.
I recall trying exactly what you recommend here, after reading the method that a pro baker, who used to post here, applies in his successful bakery, couple of years ago. When I tried his method, the overfermented dough seems to have had dominated the final dough, so oven rise was less than noticeable. But I forgot whether I allowed the mixed doughs time to ferment together. Perhaps If I use it immediately, after mixing both, it could succeed.. but then again, I must allow final tray proofing.. where the overfermented could perhaps has enough time to dominate all the same!
I asked the pro baker to explain his method, but unfortunately he left TFL.
Just spitballing here, but how about chilling the overfermented dough. That way, it won't catch up with the strong dough by the time IT is done proofing. You only need the strong dough to proof, because that will carry the loaf.
Great idea..! I should try it.
I've just read about a method that professor Raymond Calvel uses which is similar to your idea.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/32747#comment-32747
Your overfermented retarded half dough idea is the same, only he calls it pate fermente or old dough from the previous batch. Same concept, don't you think ? only difference is that I'll put that half in the fridge for probably a week since I don't bake daily like bakeries do. I might have to retard it once mixed, since it will overferment in the fridge for a whole week.
By the way, I posted a couple of questions to you in the other thread, waiting for your kind answers :
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/60631/what-difference-between-retarding-bulk-or-balls#comment-437088