Correlation between starter rising speed and total dough fermentation
Hello, this is my first post, been baking for over a year with sourdough and still have many questions, even basic ones such as this.
We all know that each starter is different and they behave and respond differently, and a big part of baking with it is learning its rhythms and moods. So for you a 1:3:3 feeding might take 8h to double while for me, at the same room temp, it might take 12h.
However we still talk about bulk rise and proof time as abstract numbers, recipes will often include a rather narrow range of bulk rise time and then maybe a bigger range of proofing time in the fridge. But regardless, I see people recommend bulk times of about 4-6h lately at room temperature (with around 15-20% starter in the dough).
But I was thinking, if my starter, which is particularly slow, takes, say 16h to peak with 1:3:3 feeding, and then I go and do a 1:3.5:5 ratio for the dough (starter:water:flour) and with salt, both the lower hydration and the salt slow down the fermentation. And then I read a book like Tartine which says to do 3h bulk rise and 3h proof (both at room temp).
So TL;DR: are most recipes "wrong" in not taking into account or explaining well enough the correlation of the strength/speed of your own starter and the times for the final dough?
I agree. Timing is the most variable and least understood part of any wild yeast bread recipes. That makes it difficult to learn and maintain knowledge... unless one bakes a lot and often.
by encouraging more yeast growth. First make a back up starter if you don't already have one. Then give the starter a larger feeding ratio and up the temp to 26°C while fermenting. Try 1:8:10 S:w:f and wait for it to peak, level out. Take notes. Repeat. Wait for the starter to peak, level out, and start to fall before returning to 1:3:3 feeding.
Have a yeasted recipe handy to deal with the discard as there will most likely be 170g of starter to flavour a loaf. Can easily use a 1,2,3 recipe and drop in some yeast for quick timing while waiting for the upgrade.
Hmm I might try that, didn't even consider trying to speed it up, was just trying to adjust to its timing.
I have a loaf in the oven right now that once again barely got oven spring. This happens to me often and I have trouble diagnosing the cause, given what I've been reading I think it's underproofing, but I'm sort of cautious about going too far with fermentation.
Can very well be that the starter has gradually shifted out of balance with too much bacteria. Pepping up the yeast pop. might be just what it needs. A detailed feeding schedule might help pinpoint any week spots in the maintenance routine. Try to be as detailed as possible and include temps, type of flour and general geographic location. Is the starter refrigerated? How often is bread baked using the starter?
Feeding log is not as detailed as it should be, it's something I gotta work on. I pop it in and out of the fridge, usually about a day or two before I plan to bake and do 2-3 feedings before I prepare the levain. This about once or twice a week. I feed again and put it back in the fridge if I don't plan to bake within the next 2 days.
I tried what you said, made a few breads that were better than my previous ones, but I'm still not getting enough volume, and my starter still takes over 12h to double on a 1:2:2 feeding. This morning I did 1:1:1 at 36c for testing, it's been 5 hours and it barely moved. I'm not sure what to do about it and I'm considering throwing it away for the winter and making a new one in a few months. Do you have any feedback?
short on yeast. How about not chilling it and just leave it on the counter?
Let it take its time to rise at about 26°C. When it has reached its maximum height, give it roughly a 1:4:5 (s:w:f) feeding in a second clean jar and don't discard the old starter just yet. Cover both of them and find a temperate warm spot for them. Thicken up the older starter with flour to make a soft dough like paste. Then slow race them.
The Why's : Too warm a temp encourages the bacteria to replicate much faster than the yeast. A mildly warn temp should help the yeast increase against the increasing bacteria numbers. The bacteria will always outnumber the yeast but it may help. Be patient with the starter. It needs a grace period. Thickening a thin starter should help you see a rise easier. A 100% hydration can be tricky to watch when judging rises. It often can't trap gas, especially when thinned from lots of bacteria. the gas instead percolates to the surface were the gas escapes and no rise is detected.
Judge also aroma and sour taste of the starter. (Do spit it out.). A starter that tastes very sour and doesn't rise much is not balanced and favors the bacteria in the culture. A larger flour feed to the point where sour can no longer be tasted (wet flour taste) will raise the pH, which does encourage bacterial growth however, the yeast should be encouraged as well to speed up their activity, the extra food tells them they can use their energy now for replication instead of preservation which happens when food is scarce.
Because the starter has "stopped" rising, some yeast may have gone into self preservation behavior waiting for better growth conditions. They will need time to "wake up and get active. Keeping the temperature moderate around 25° to 27°C is cool enough to slow down the bacteria yet warm enough to encourage sleepy yeast. It will remind you of when you first started your starter. The only difference being, you already have a good number of helpful bacteria. You only have to wait for the yeast.
but I've been reading it, gotta find the time and motivation to do it (since it's cold, it's difficult to keep the temperature at around 26c stable). Made a few breads since then and I'm getting more convinced the starter is to blame for the fool's crumb I've been getting. Next time I will make a loaf with 30 or 40% levain, since I've seen Trevor recommend that, if I cannot find a good way to keep the starter at 26c.
or double bag and drop into a vest pocket. Body heat is good for starters. :)
That would be the epitome of a sourdough obsessed baker. I've taken the starter to my room for monitoring and temperature before.
I haven't tried exactly what you said but I've been paying more attention to it, and using less water. A few days ago it tripled, and then I used 40% instead of my usual 20% as well as using a smaller bowl for proofing I finally got some nice volume, might post a pic tomorrow. Ty for your suggestions