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Baking SD in hot weather, im desperate!!

trmmddkk's picture
trmmddkk

Baking SD in hot weather, im desperate!!

So, ive been attempting to make sourdough in indonesia, where its 30-32c everyday. i process my dough in 28c usually. im using 100% white levain with 100% hydration. The levain is 4 months old and always doubled within 4-6 hours.

 

my recipe of 100% white loaf is:

 

-make 1:2:2 starter (levain:water:flour), wait for 8-12 hours

-mix 100% of flour and 65% water, autôlyze for 1 hour

-mix in 5% water, 20% refreshed starter, 2% salt

-wait for 20 mins

-bulk ferment for 2,5 hours with 4 stretch and fold (30 min, 30 min, 30 min, 1 hr)

-preshape

-wait for 15 min

-final shaping

-15 mins room temp proof

-10-12hr fridge proof (4-5c)

-bake on 230c with baking stone setting for 20 mins (electric oven with fan)

-bake on 210c for 25 min

----------

so. my problem is that, somewhat during my last fold, the dough always always becoming shaggy. it seem to lost its elasticity. when baking, the oven spring is ok although not as much as id hope for; but the texture of the bread is always too gummy and never an open crumb. 

 

previously i was told to use the slap and fold method but im extremely bad at it, so it took me so long and it make the dough overproof, thus leaving me with minimum oven spring and flat loaf. ive been trying the stretch and fold method but it havent been v satisfactory for me either, although yes it has more oven spring! What did i possibly done wrong? help and input are highly appreciated! 

 

David R's picture
David R

Have you watched videos of some experts doing the different kinds of folding and shaping? Copy the way the experts do those things. I know that I am very clumsy and I do a poor job of anything physical unless I practice a lot. Watching people like Trevor Wilson is frustrating for me because I can't do it the same - but I have to try to do it the same!

trmmddkk's picture
trmmddkk

yes i have! and i have tried multiple ways of stretch and fold.  but so far, the last folding will make the previously easy to handle dough, shaggy. i am now baking once a week to train myself as well. I will check trevor wilson for sure! thank you!!

phaz's picture
phaz

Doing worry about slapping or folding, your dough will fully develope it gluten in the time it is sitting around (12+ hrs is plenty long enough to fully develope). At your temps, it may be that things are getting over proofed. Slack, sticky dough is a sign of that. What type of flour is used (protein content?).

trmmddkk's picture
trmmddkk

thats what i was scared of. i tried to cut to 25 mins in between stretch and fold, and the result is a little better but still not quite there. these are the specs of my flour. a lot of people told me that this flour is quite wet so ive been reducing my hydration from 75 to 70!

 

Protein (%)(db)

Moisture (%)

Ash (%)(db)

Water Absorption %

Wet Gluten %

 

Min. 13.0

Max. 14.3

Max. 0.64

Min. 60

Min. 30

 

 

 

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

I agree with Phaz that the dough is likely to be overproofed. Gummy crumb is a pretty good indicator for that. If you can’t keep the dough cooler during bulk fermentation, you may try mixing your autolyse with ice water so it starts off cooler. Another thought is that your levain may be too mature. At the temperature you are working, if you want to keep the same 8-10 hrs for the levain, try 1:3:3 ratio. Or you could reduce the bulk fermentation time. Watch the dough and not the clock should be a guiding principle. 

On a separate note, to get good oven spring you need sufficient steam during the first 10-15 min of baking. That is difficult to achieve if you are using a convection oven. If you have the option, don’t turn the fan on during the steam phase and have a good source of steam in the oven. A pan of hot water in the bottom will usually do, though you can read many threads on TFL about generating steam. 

-Brad

trmmddkk's picture
trmmddkk

thank you! ill probably try to reduce my time of waiting the levain to ripen. or reducing bulk ferment time. do you think by reducing the bulk ferment time, gluten can still form properly in my dough? i am fairly new to SD and still havent grasp how the dough should feels like in each stage (does it need to pass windowpane test? how much stretch and fold is enough per session? how vigorous?)

i only have convection oven but i can turn off the fan. do you think itll help with the oven spring? my setup usually is either putting ice cubes in the pan underneath the baking stone or hot boiling water. i tried spraying the loaf but it only made my "skin" and the inner part of loaf conjoined.

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

The bulk fermentation time has some effect on gluten gluten strength but most of it comes from the stretch and folds. As for the windowpane test, it is helpful but not necessary, especially if using any whole grains in the dough, which would tend to make it tear. 

Being able to identify what doughs feel like at each stage is a matter of experience, so take notes and compare your results. In general, a fermented dough will feel puffy and airy, but will vary depending on hydration. 

For steaming, I would avoid ice cubes because it lowers the oven temperature. Even boiling water is below baking temperature but it won’t reduce it as much. Baking in a Dutch oven or covering the loaf with a roasting pan to contain the steam from the baking dough is easier until you get a bit more experience. 

Good luck. 

-Brad

phaz's picture
phaz

With my ap flour (10% protein), 4 hours is enough time to form enough gluten to trap enough gas to rise the dough. I wouldn't say gluten was developed to its maximum, but plenty enough for a loaf of bread. I'd say 6 hrs should be enough for you. Or, as mentioned, adjust formula and/or temps.

trmmddkk's picture
trmmddkk

do you mean 4 hours of fridge proofing or are you suggesting about the time i let my starter develop?

phaz's picture
phaz

The dough, not the starter

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Either it's going to be the temperature or starter/levain percentage or ferment time. If the equation doesn't work then it has to be changed. 

trmmddkk's picture
trmmddkk

Do you have any suggestion or tips to know whether or bot i have enough ferment time? ill definitely try to adjust them next time until something works!! 

seasidejess's picture
seasidejess

I'm just a beginner, so take this for what it's worth (maybe nothing!)

Since you notice that your dough has become sticky and shaggy at your last stretch and fold, take a guess that maybe your dough has already become over-fermented at that point and is starting to break down. That is after only 1.5 hours.

Remember that after your bulk fermentation you need time for a preshape and a shape and a short proof before you can begin your cold retard.

One thing to think about is that each time you're doing your stretch and folds (or whatever gluten-development technique you're using) you are deflating the dough, perhaps making it difficult for you to keep track of fermentation.

One idea would be to develop the gluten much faster/earlier so that you can better keep up with the fermentation and get the dough in the fridge before it breaks down.

If it were me, here's what I would try:

After mixing, I would do a full knead all the way to windowpane. No autolyse or anything. Just traditional gluten development kneading. Use a mixer or a food processor if you want.  

Then, shape it to a ball, put it in a clean bowl right-side up, cover it with something clear, and let it bulk ferment undisturbed while you watch it like a hawk. The moment it has increased by 1/2 (it might only be 15 minutes or 1/2 hour, or 1 hour, or 2) gently turn it out of the bowl on your workbench, right side down, lightly deflate it, do your preshape, and proceed with your method as before.

My idea is that if you get your gluten development done upfront it will be easier for you to watch the undisturbed dough during bulk fermentation and identify the right moment to move on. 

Let us know what you try and how it works out! -Jess

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven
  • get salt in right away to get control of the fermentation
  • Reduce the amount of starter. If using 20% reduce to 17%
  • if flour is bagged in plastic it will be dry upon opening and need more water in the formula. If flour is open to humidity, you will need less in the formula.
  • you may want to watch the starter, use when it peaks in volume, timing will vary with the amount of food fed to the starter.

try one or all the above. 

calneto's picture
calneto

Hi there. Good to hear from another dweller from the tropics.

Here in Rio, Brazil, I have similar weather conditions.

I do not think your dough is proofing for too long, but just the other way around.

I've never bulked for less than 4 hours and got a good result. My first loaves were made with essentially the same recipe as you use. When I did everything at room temperature, my total fermentation time (from the time I added the starter to the time I put it in the oven) was about 8h.

After I got another, older and more active starter from a friend, I've been bulking between 4h and 6h and then proofing overninght in the fridge. 

From your description, I'd say the problem is with the dough structure. 

I have baked decent loaves both with slap and fold kneading or without any kneading. The thing is, when I do not knead, I do a rather long autolyse. I either mix flour, water and salt and let it sleep in the fridge, or do as I did today: a 4h autolyse.

My suggestion is: keep the recipe exactly as it is, but try the method where you autolyse with salt overnight. I also did my folds spaced 45' apart from each other (also total of 4) and did a short bench rest (20' tops). The temperature has dropped consideraly today and it is only 25C, but I have been baking at 30C+ for most of the time. The method I suggest has the added bonus that it'll take a while for the dough to reach a high temperature. Whenever my dough reached 27C, I'd put in the the refrigerator between folds. 

So, once again:

* mix flour, all water and salt and autolyse in the fridge overnight (70% hydration is a good number)

* add 100% hydrated starter the following morning (no need to wait; the liquid starter will be easy to incorporate)

* perform 4 folds at 45' interval

* at this point, the douhg has fermented for 1h30. Wait at least an additional 1h30 before pre-shaping

* pre-shape (20' bench rest), shape and back to the fridge

* the following morning take from the fridge straight to the oven

* bake as usual.

Keep us posted. Upload some pics, so we can see how things develop.

And, of course, good baking!

trmmddkk's picture
trmmddkk

thank you so much!!! this is tremendously helping me! ill definitely try your method next and will post result. 

How long did you put it in refrigerator between folds? ive been reading about bulking in fridge but have not get more info about this and whether or not this is necessary.

calneto's picture
calneto

Oh, another thing: is your starter still peaking when you use it? I ask because fermentation is crucial for the structure and if I want to wait for 8-10h before using my starter, I usually feed it at 1:3:3 or even 1:4:4. 

trmmddkk's picture
trmmddkk

it usually have deflated quite a bit! whats your time frame and ratio for your starter usually?

calneto's picture
calneto

As I said, I use a 1:3:3 or 1:4:4 refreshment if I want to use it the following morning, but you'd have to watch your own starter to see what works best. Maybe it's best to bake your next loaf when you have plenty of time. Refresh then with 1:1:1 and see how long it takes to peak (or say, double or almos triple in volume). Use it then. My most recent loaf was the best so far and I refreshed the levain while autolysing. I did a 4:3:3, since I wanted the starter to be more on the sour side in about 4h30. You can try 1:1:1 instead to see how it goes. The temperature here was around 26C, so I did it all at room temperature. Keep monitoring the temperature (I record it at every fold) and if it reaches, say, 28C, put it in the fridge until the next fold and keep doing that (as long as it is below 28C, just leave it at room temperature).

I did a 4h12 autolyse, followed by a 6h33 bulk, all at 25-26C. Then I put it in the fridge for 13h47.

Here is the loaf:

Sasaki Kojiro's picture
Sasaki Kojiro

Hi Calneto, 

Thank you so much for all the sharing and your bread looks fabulous. 

I live in Hanoi, Vietnam and the weather is constantly around 27-28oC inside the kitchen - 30oC during summer. Luckily it's getting colder as end of October approach. 

I'm a very much beginner and at the very same desperate road like thread owner to find a solution for baking sourdough in such a hot weather. Couple of information of what I have tried:

- My starter is at 100% hydration - 50/50 WW and BF, feed with cold water at 1:5:5 twice a day; it peaks/triples after 6 hours has a very light yogurt sourness after 12 hours). It normally just pass its peak a bit when I feed it. Very healthy and bubbly. 

- I followed Tartine country sourdough recipe, but reduce the hydration to 70% (20% levain + 10% WW + 90% BF). 

- My dough normally become very very shaggy and almost impossible to shape after 2 hours into bulk fermentation - like all the gluten built during autolyse destroyed. It's very sticky. I tried to shape some laves and bake anyway after short 2 hour final proof and as described above, it's pretty gummy - sign of overproof during bulk fermentation. 

- I have suspected the issue is with autolyse so I have tried: 

  • Autolyse with/without salt; 
  • Autolyse with/without starter; 
  • Long autolyse with/without salt inside a fridge overnight following Trevor Wilson's guidance. 

None of these works for me. As soon as the bulk fermentation starts, the dough becomes very shaggy after 2 hours - I tried being very gentle and do window pane test before each folds and it did not pass the test. 

- So I suspected it's the issue with hot weather: I looked up yesterday and found some sourdough bakers in similar climate in Malaysia and Singapore did very short bulk proof and long final proof here and here with very decent results. I particularly tried Nancy (Sun Sourdough)'s recipe: 

  • it follows Tartine recipe but calls for a 1 hour autolyse, mixed with cold water and put inside the fridge to give it a low temperature start. 
  • The bulk is at 30oC for 3 hours. 

I still failed this morning because my horrible hand mixing skills cannot get the levain in the cold dough properly - I find it hard to mix levain in such a well-built structure, yet to mention a cold dough. 

That said, there's a few things I desperately hope to get your advice on: 

- I intend to try again tomorrow - this time mixing all water, flour, levain, salt in and do a 1 hour cold autolyse (this may not be called a proper autolyse I know). Since I struggle with mixing the levain (and/or salt) into autolysed dough - I'll try this way first.
- I still want to try the method you suggest as well: long cold autolyse - then mix in the levain and salt. Can you help me understand how can you mixed the levain into a cold dough? Is there any video/guidance you can share? I'm struggling with it. 
- One way you suggest is to monitor the dough temperature and move it in the fridge if the DDT gets too high. I'll notice and try this as well, even though I think it's pretty troublesome, especially in the summer time - I think I'll keep moving it in and out of the fridge and the dough temperature will be up and down all the time. Not sure how it will affect the fermentation though. 

Again, Thank you Calneto. I'll update on this thread how my tropic sourdough going, in case there's anyone in the future as desperate as me :) 

Howard Wong's picture
Howard Wong

Another suspect could be the starter. I live in Hong Kong and during one summer I had doughs breaking down towards the end of bulk and eventually I narrowed down to potential thiols in my mixed white / WW starter. Switched to a rye starter and that never happened again. Might want to keep this in mind in case none of the above helpful solutions seems to work for you, especially if the dough smells weird, somewhat rubber-like, when it starts to break down towards the end of bulk which was a sign I noticed with my thiol-infested doughs.

jey13's picture
jey13

Four things: (1) as an experiment, make your Levain during the day taking a photo of it each hour. Find out how long it really takes to rise. in the heat, it might be rising too fast. If so, slow it down by upping it to 1:4:4 or 1:6:6 even for 8-12 hours. That way it will be at it’s peak rather than on its way down when you use it.

(2) For autolyse: try dissolving the starter in the water, add flour, then autolyse. Saves you the step of adding it later, and gets things going faster as it spreads the yeasties around. 

(3) Have you tried baking your bread in a Dutch oven? Your dough may not be getting enough steam on that stone. Try Dutch oven (which holds in the steam and bathed the bread in it) for 30 minutes lid on, then 20 minutes lid off. 

(4) Coil folds. I was in the same boat as you. Slap-n-folds turned my dough into a saggy mess that was unusable. And Stretch-n-Folds never really worked. Coil folds were what did the trick for me. Check out this video: https://youtu.be/OAH28Hm81FQ

NOTE: Watch it only for the lamination part and the coil folds. You can try her method if you like—example: autolyse for 3 hours then refrigeration overnight (I see a recommendation to do that; try it and see if it helps! If it does, note that down and do it from now on. If it doesn’t, go back to 1 hour autolyse). Also, she uses way too much flour at the end and shapes only once. Use a spray bottle of water to wet board and hands to keep the dough from sticking during first shape. Then minimal flour on the board and on the “outside” of the dough for second shape. If you use too much flour, it the dough stops sticking to itself, and it needs to do that to hold a good tight shape.

As for that second shape, check out this video and the “lace-up” method. https://youtu.be/sZP3TKWlGnA

Here’s the most important thing to remember: Whatever you do that results in soft, gassed-up, elastic dough, tightly shaped, that bakes  up into a puffed up loaf of good bread is “RIGHT.” Don’t be afraid to mix and match methods till you find the magic formula that works for you. Hopefully, coil folds will help with at least part of that. Please let us know if they do. 

calneto's picture
calneto

This particular loaf I baked was kept at 25C pretty much all the time. 

Here are the times/temperatures during the folds:

D1: 15:56 @ 25,6C
L2: 17:07 @ 25,5C
B3: 17:57 @ 25,4C
B4: 19:07 @ 25,0C
B5: 19:55 @ 24,7C

I'd say you can put the dough in the fridge between folds. 

When I autolyse during the night, I just add the levain and mix (always by hand) until incorporated. About 5', probably. Or even less.

Once I add the salt, I mix for another 5' or so.

I had a harder time when I was using stiffer levain, but once I switched to 100%, it was fine. 

You can check my instagram account. I think I have some videos there, but you'll have to browse through 160+ loaves. It is calneto70.

Good baking!

Sasaki Kojiro's picture
Sasaki Kojiro

Thank you Calneto again, I'll go through your video on instagram :) 

One thing though: Can you help me understand what "D1, L2, B3" stands for in your note? 

calneto's picture
calneto

Oh, these are just what kind of fold it was: regular stretch and fold (D), coil fold (B) or lamination (L).