The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

First Sourdough Starter - Type of Wheat to Use

johnhendrick's picture
johnhendrick

First Sourdough Starter - Type of Wheat to Use

My name is John. I am completely new to baking and I am excited to give it a try. For the past month, I have been attempting to use random methods to create a sourdough starter using Palouse Brand soft white wheat berries. It usually starts to smell like alcohol before I give up and try again. People on here say it is because it needs to be fed more often and is starving. 

I am wondering:

1) Is it even possible to make sourdough starter from soft white wheat berries?

2) Should I give up on using soft white wheat berries and use hard red winter wheat or rye? People on TFL have suggested that rye or hard red winter wheats provide more nutrition and are easier to use than AP or other whole wheat flours. 

3) Is it okay for me to mill the berries using my vitamix dry container? It seems to grind up the grain well. 

Thanks so much!

hreik's picture
hreik

site on the internet.  I do not have a home mill, so cannot answer your milling questions.  Four years or more ago I began my starter with bread flour. If the gurus here suggest a more nutritious flour, go ahead and use it.  Tho imho whole wheat should have plenty of nutrients to feed your starter. 

good luck

hester

johnhendrick's picture
johnhendrick

Thank you Hreik. 

hreik's picture
hreik

Weekends can be slow around here.  So perhaps post this same question tomorrow.

hester

Justanoldguy's picture
Justanoldguy

I've got no experience with Vitamix so its effectiveness for milling is a question I can't answer and I've also got no experience using soft white for a starter. I've got three starters, a hard white, a rye and a No Muss No Fuss which is rye. The rye starters came together faster and seem to have more oomph than the wheat but combining portions of both wheat and rye starters for a leaven is a good move as well in my opinion. Try rye. You may be amazed at its performance.  

johnhendrick's picture
johnhendrick

Thanks!

David R's picture
David R

You can use the soft white wheat ground in the Vitamix to make your starter.

Vitamix will not be good enough for making your own actual bread flour, but it's good enough for this. If you want to grind your own flour "for real" (enough to make bread with), you'll need a real mill.

 

HOWEVER... Since you're currently having trouble, I suggest that you switch to ordinary commercial flour. It works. You need to know beyond doubt that it's not your flour's fault, so use standard ordinary flour, the kind that you can buy a 20-pound bag of at any store. (I don't mean you're supposed to buy 20 pounds, I mean please buy the same brand that comes in the 20-pound bags, not something fancy.)

johnhendrick's picture
johnhendrick

Thank you for this. I am currently trying a store bought rye. I am on day 3 and it is still bubbly but a little funky smelling. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

"It usually starts to smell like alcohol before I give up and try again."

Um, if it starts to smell like alcohol, fermentation is taking place as alcohol is a byproduct of fermentation caused by yeast.  

You gave up too soon.  

Test: When it starts smelling lightly of alcohol, skip a daily feeding then take part of the culture (keep the rest as back up and continue as before) give the sample a big feeding at least twice as much flour food or more (3 to 10 x more) and enough water to make a dough like paste and see what happens.  Time it to peak. After it falls somewhat, introduce a maintenance feeding amount, something like 20g starter culture, 40g water and 60g flour.  Let rise to maximum, fall down a little bit and then feed again.  With repetition and temps between 73°F - 78°F the starter should be speeding up and feeds will get closer together.  A pattern sets in and you can adjust this to your needs ( and get more sleep) by feeding more or less flour to reach a peak in say, 6 to 8 hours, then feed at 12 hours.  This would be a twice daily feeding schedule.  It is not unusual with spring and fall to feed less flour at night when temps drop and more during the day when temps rise and fermentation is faster.  Be flexible and respond to the starter within reason. 

If the culture fails this test, go back to the back up which has been slowly brewing and is a day older and try again with a larger flour feeding.  Sooner or later, the bigger fed culture will take off and rise if you just be patient.  

johnhendrick's picture
johnhendrick

Thanks mini oven! This information is incredible. It takes scientific trial and error, patience and common sense - a lot of life lessons here. 

When you say take part of the culture and keep the rest as back up, do you mean about 50/50 of the starter? You mentioned going back to the back up if the culture fails the test you outlined. You earlier mentioned to keep the back up and continue as before. When you said continue as before, did you mean to not feed the back up like in the day before where you skipped a feeding, or did you mean normal feedings?

Everyone here is so helpful and amazing. 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Ive started a lot of different kinds of starters.  You can do this in less than a month.  If you are comfortable in a t-shirt and shorts, one week is all it takes.  Important factors (and maybe you'd like to share) are temperatures, rough location (climate)  water, flour and experience.  We know you are new to this.  You should also know that alcohol is a byproduct of yeast fermentation.  With raising a starter you are dealing with biology, the growth of bacteria and yeast, not one kind but a whole assortment of the little tiny organisms and it take a good number of them working together for us humans to notice what they are doing.  We can only presume what we see, taste and smell indicates the little beasties have been working along a chain of events that have and will  lead to a sourdough starter.  

Since we are not working with rain water in a harvested wheat field we can speed up a natural process in our kitchens by controlling the environment to encourage first bacteria, then later yeast.  Bacteria start to grow and make bubbles from the start and their byproducts slowly produce gas and acid.  As the acid level in the culture increases, different bacteria take over until there is enough acid in the goop to encourage the yeast.  It is a delicate amount of acid, too little or too much adds a time factor, yeast simply respond.  If conditions are good, it's s worth the effort for yeast to start multiplying.  Then they use up the available food. 

The difference between starting up a culture and maintaining one is to first get the yeast to multiply.  This is the tricky business that drives so many of us bonkers.  Once that goal is achieved, once we recognize the yeast are multiplying, the goal changes to maintaining and feeding the yeast to keep them active and concentrated. (And ready to die for us.) We want them more concentrated than they would be in a distant wheat field in nature.  It is important to recognize when the yeast become active enough to increase feedings.  They tend to show us with the aroma, the amount of gas being produced and a definite pattern in behavior.  All linked to the amount of food, water, temperature and other variables I can't think of right now.  They are alive and can be slowed down or sped up and they can also be forced back into a dormant survival mode if they find their conditions too stressful. 

Yeasts work with a special group of bacteria. Once that group of bacteria is growing, "backslopping" (the act of discarding & feeding)  decreases or dilutes the acid in the culture which in turn encourages this selective group of bacteria to multiply and increase the acid.  Bacterial activity encourages yeast activity, somehow.  No backslopping, results in slower yeast growth because too much acid built up in the goop doesn't encourage yeast either.  It's like giving the yeasts ideal survival conditions where they don't have to use their energy to survive.  So we encourage yeast growth by putting them under stress.  We do have to be carefull not to over stress them with too much flour which includes all naturally occurring bacteria, at least not before the culture is stronger and can defend itself from them.  So the question for us is to decide when to start backslopping and how much flour to feed?  The answer varies with the environmental variables.  That is why there are so many starter recipes.  All of them have different amount of water to flour ratios and estimate times of when a feeding should take place, how much, how often, bla, blah blah.  So what may work fast for one person, may take longer in another kitchen.  

Oh yes, and there are different ways to backslopping too.  The range goes from stirring up with flour and water to  just dumping flour and water into a jar and let the beasties sort things out as they need it.  There is even a starter made from taking a flour and water dough ball and dropping it into a bag of flour.  

What was the question?  

Test, how much to experiment with half or whatever?  Take what you want to.  Some amount between 10 and 20g depending on your temperature and location.  How much flour do you want to waste?  Lol

Keep the main goop, the goop you are taking a sample from, on your recipe schedule.  If you have been discarding & feeding it once a day then do so.  Whatever recipe you've been following.  The one day rest was to help the acid stay concentrated for just a little longer before feeding again.  

If the test fails and no big difference is seen then the main goop is most likely further ahead in culture development than the test.  You can of course hang onto both of them and watch them with daily feedings.  Race them so you're not too bored waiting for them.  

If you happened to still have some ditched starters you threw into the back of the fridge, do tell.  You might have one growing there already.  It only needs some warmth and food encouragement.   

First the update on the rye starter goop.     Temp, good and bad aroma, does it taste sour (by all means don't swallow! Spit!) or bland, before and after feeding. All the gory details...color changes, texture changes :)

 

breadyandwaiting's picture
breadyandwaiting

Check out "The Pineapple Juice Solution" authored by Debra Wink on this site -- follow her instructions and you'll be set! 

David R's picture
David R

Besides it being true, this little post contains one of the most important concepts in making a starter successfully - following the instructions. Whatever method you end up using, it's important not to try variations of the instructions, but to just do exactly what they say. (For example, the simple word "flour" without any description attached, would mean "plain ordinary flour that you bought".

Regrettably, this is because not everything about sourdough starters is known yet. It's not known precisely completely 100% what happens in every case, and straying from the instructions for any reason in any way means giving a chance for unexpected results. It's kind of scientifically embarrassing I guess, that some of the ways it can go wrong are a bit hazy on facts, but that's where things stand.

There are two closely-related questions that intelligent people often ask themselves, or ask others, when baking: "Why?" and "Hmmm, what if I just...[change one little thing]?" Perfectly natural questions, both. But when making sourdough starter for the first time, that second question can't be part of your vocabulary. It's a time to not be creative. Curious, yes - creative no. ?

johnhendrick's picture
johnhendrick

I agree. I need to just follow the tried and true instructions. In some cases, it must have taken years of trial and error to perfect these varied starter recipes with different methods and flours and climates - so many incontrolled variables!

It would be fun to experiment, as long as I realize it could take months and years to figure out how to make a starter using a unique flour like soft white wheat. I am going to follow the exact advice of a few recipes. I am going to start with a simple rye recipe. 

I will keep you posted what I tried and if I have success. If baking bread is my goal, I need to first shadow the given techniques and then after many years, I would have more hope tweaking recipes and trying to be creative. But I imagine even some of the best bakers just followed in the footsteps of giants and contributed only a few small ideas to the baking community. These small contributions seem to add up and “enrich” our understanding. 

johnhendrick's picture
johnhendrick

Thanks.

johnhendrick's picture
johnhendrick

Thanks, breadya. 

johnhendrick's picture
johnhendrick

This April 11, 2019

I felt like giving up hope again. It started to smell like alcohol again, maybe because I missed a feeding. I realized that I needed to be patient since even though my starter lived on top of my gas stove, it had been under our AC vent!

I put it outside 3 days ago. It was very humid today and warm outside. I put it in the shade. Out of nowhere, it doubled in size!! It also passed the float test. After a month of trying, persistence and patience paid off. 

I have a soft wheat flour that I am experimenting with using 15 grams of water and 15 grams of flour each day. I will let you guys know what happens. 

How many more days of feedings do you guys think before my goop is mature and ready to bake with bread? I am so pumped! 

By the way, every time I tried creating a starter, it smelled almost like vomit on day 2 or 3. It had a great rise then too and bubbly. Maybe it would have made bread rise, but I am guessing that people wait until day 7 or later to wait for the healthy and sour bacteria to take over. My starter smells nice and sour now and no alcohol or vomit smells, just bready and sour. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

keep it going with twice a day feedings, more or less flour and water depending on the temperatures.  To start another starter, take a spoonful of the rye starter and inoculate the soft wheat starter.  It will be up and running soon sooner.

Vomit smells are typical of the first bacteria that can be encountered when initiating a wild culture.  As soon as they have built up enough acid in the culture those stinky bacteria subside as another bacteria flourishes.  Read Debra Wink's post already mentioned.

Test the starter by taking 20g of it and feeding a basic 1:2:3 ratio.   One part starter 20g: two parts water 40g: and three parts flour 60g.  Stir well, flatten out in a tall narrow glass, mark the level and let it ferment and rise until it starts to flatten out and perhaps fall or deflate somewhat.  If it more than doubles in volume, the starter can raise a loaf.