Advice on a Rye Bread
Hello all,
I want to bake the Auvergne Rye bread described here by the Rye Baker.
So far I've only baked breads from FWSY and I've had a lot of success with them with very decent crumbs (not very dense but not super airy).
I want to try this 73% rye bread because I want to work with higher proportions of rye but I'm surprised by how roughly this recipe proposes to handle the bread. After a stage 1 and 2 sponge, the recipe suggests mixing the bread with the dough hook 4-5 minutes, proofing it, kneading it, shaping and then proofing it again right before baking.
Is it necessary to be so rough with this bread? I notice the crumb in the pictures is very dense, could I treat this dough much more gently and get results with a more open crumb?
I assume I'll have to be rough with it during the mixing even if I do it by hand, but for the kneading right before shaping, could I skip the kneading and just gently shape it before proofing and baking or do you think the dough would collapse in the oven if I don't knead it back down after the rise?
Thanks!
I can't say anything certain about the bread, but I can say that "The Rye Baker" is not generally known for making major mistakes and then not correcting them. Rye bread being his particular specialty, and that recipe obviously having been on public view long enough to be well tested, I would be inclined to make it his way first.
He is already what might jokingly be called "lazy-smart" - eliminating useless busy-work and so on. I don't think he would include steps in a recipe unless they had a good reason to be there. BUT... Anybody can be wrong, even an expert.
Make one batch per the recipe's instructions.
Make another batch with your adjustments.
And, please, let us know what you find.
Paul
so you will likely not get the "open and airy" crumb you are thinking of.
I follow Stan's methods when I bake his Rye breads and it works. No worrying about being too rough. As for being gentle, Rye is typically very sticky and difficult to work with, which makes it even harder to be gentle.
David R and pmccool offered sound advice above, try it the authors way first. Then experiment...
Jeff
EDIT: edited for content
if you skip the last kneading because open crumb is not a characteristic of high % rye bread. However, I don't think the dough will collapse in the oven if you do so. Give it a try and let us know how it turns out.
Yippee
I've made this Auvergne Rye bread a few times and I'd have to say...next time...I will knead on 2...for the time he says. I was worried about my old 60 year old KA...that likes to slip speeds...so I went for doing it on 1 throughout...for a min or two longer. It needed more if the video of Mark Sinclair's handling of his rye breads is an example. I didn't do anything close to what he does in his bakery.
The spread was significant...and I think it was due my being less rigorous with speed and shaping. It wasn't too far from the pics ( of other related loaves) in the book...but I still wanted less spread. Could have been the rye I had to use...a name I won't mention but won't buy again. I suggest always buy small amount of rye and test it out before buying a case of 5lb bags.
Tastes very sour IMHO...
4-5 minutes on a KA speed 2 is rough treatment?
Interesting that there has been a fair amount of discussion lately among some very good professional bakers I know, working on 100% whole grain rye breads, concluding that a long slow mix (~20 minutes on 1st speed with a spiral mixer) yields a more open crumb (along with 90F+ dough temps). Of course, that "open crumb" is relative, since we are talking all rye...
Apparently the web site recipe is not the same recipe as I was looking at in the book...the one on page 111 is only a 50% rye and the web link above is a 73%. So of course my results won't match the link above. I had no idea he had different Auvergne rye recipes.
Anyways...I will have to try this one...since I do like higher percentage ryes... and unlike the one I just pulled out of the oven...you can trust the recipe.
BTW the book says for the recipe I had experience with...KA2 6-8 mins...and I clearly did NOT use the speed long enough for that recipe. The link above says 4-5 mins KA2 for the one with 73% rye. I'd say from my experience with the many recipes in his book...I am probably under kneading cause I am going slow at KA1...sometimes KA2 but it tends to slip back and forth...so who knows really.
I didn't know either, about the differing recipes.
One thing that's certain, regardless: If your bread is good to eat, then you've already succeeded in the most important and useful way. Any other definitions of success are optional.
Appearance is nice...but taste is more important. Spreading...well I don't make many sandwiches...so a bread that spreads is just easier to dip into my bowl of soup. Or that is what I tell my sons. At least they were raised on breads that don't look like they came from the store...so they are willing to try it all. Now my DIL's aren't convinced I'm not trying to feed them a mistake. LOL!