The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Update 7 - Simple things - 1 2 3 Sourdough

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Update 7 - Simple things - 1 2 3 Sourdough

Hello friends, 

After 2weeks+ since i build my first starter i looked for a baguette recipe and decided to follow 36h sourdough baguette published by txfarmer - thank you! 

I starded building 150gr of starter and autolyse 425gr of AP flower with 300gr ice cold water . 

Next day i mix starter salt with the 12h autolyse dough and start bulk rise for 3h with SF from 30min to 30 min and i am here :

This is the momemt where i put it back in the fridge for another 24h. 

My question are about how it looks , and if the starter seems ok to use ?

Scaling

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

Your starter has expanded nicely and developed bubbles, both of which are signs of healthy activity.

(Floyd, is there a way to rotate his photos 90 degrees?)

Sorin's picture
Sorin

I am interested too...how to do it by phone. It depends on how i take the photo. Sorry if i disturb you. 

How about the dough? Looks right for a 75% hydratation? 

I really need to learn a lot about doughs...how it feel, how it look, when is proofed...ready to bake. 

About kneading i use slap and fold with quarter turn. Recently i  watch a video with Richard Bertinet and he don't make quarters turn and his dough is ready in about 5min of kneading. I am really scared about over kneading...so again...experience...experience...experience. :)

Thanks,

Sorin.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Sorin, I use an iPhone. If you keep the camera button on the right for landscape and the camera button on the bottom for portrait format the images should orient properly. I had the same problem a year ago.

You can also edit the image in your phone’s camera software in order to rotate it. Crop is also possible. 

I hope this works for you. I know how frustrating this can be. 

Dan

Sorin's picture
Sorin
Sorin's picture
Sorin

On the way....but...need a lot....and i mean....a lot of improvements : 

What do you think ...main problem was scoring and transfer to the oven...2nd was that baguettes was longer than my stone and i thing baking all 3 at once on a 30cm wide stone was a mistake also. Shaping was also another challange....

Do you think also the dough was underproof? After 22h getting the dough from de fridge, rest 2h, divide and preshape 40 min, shape and final proof only 30 min because my kitchen was verry hot - previously bake a pizza with 1h of preaheat the oven at 300C. 

Any comments will be greatlly appreciated! 

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Hello, 

I really enjoy baking and after baguette , next loaf was a 3 seed sourdough with 3 type of flower - AP , Rye and Spelt . Hidratation was 75% but the dough feels like 70- 72% i think and added a bit more. I bake it in the same day - couldn't resist to retard it over night - maybe next time. Autolyse - 30 min, fermentation 2h:30 min with SF from 50min to 50. Preshape, rest 30 min , proofing 6h at 22-24C cause lack of my starter activity. In my oppinion i thinnk i could push it another hour but my oven was heating by 2h or so...:) . Bake with injected steam at 230C for 15min  then dry heat at 210C for 20. I think next time i will bake at 200C for 25-30 min.

We never let it cool more than 15min and eat 3-4 slices of it right away :) 

Some pictures: 

Better and better in my oppinion - whats yours? :)

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

That bread is REALLY enticing. It keeps calling me to try a bite.

Seriously, that bread with all of the addins looks outstanding. If it was here, I’d be headed to the kitchen to get a slice :-)

You mentioned that your oven was pre-heating a long time. That is aa major reason why I like to retard the shaped loaves and bake straight from the refrigerator. No need to wait for the dough to proof. Scoring is also much easier.

You said you sliced the bread not long after baking.  Can’t tell from the images, but is the crumb a little wet or not?

Dan

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

you want bog holes or really bade for everything useful.  Love the seed add in bread too!  Real nice for your first two loaves.

Happy baking

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Thanks for all kind words...yes, crumb was a little wet. I will try to bake straight from the fridge to see the results. About proofing in to the final form i am scared about overproofing, i think is more safe to save the dough in bulk. My experience with baking is really low and need to learn a lot about timing and proportion of starter vs time of proofing in fridge. 

My oven have a special program wich allow me to low the temp to 30C . It have a food probe also wich allow me to read the temp from the core and i am really tempted to use it for bulk fermenting/final proofing next time to develop more lactic acid . What do you think? 30 celsius is too much? I think the core of the dough will be 2-3 degrees lower . 

My particular starter is a litle slow if i feed it 1.2.2 or 1.3.3 without the addition of 25% rye. I like sour taste also but we are more with mild taste . So need to keep a good balance of lactic vs acetic acid and this is hard to achieve. 

Thank you, 

Sorin.

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Change only flower - 90% AP and 10% WW spelt, same seeds.

Bulk fermenting 2:30hour with SF at 45min interval, preshape, rest 30 minutes , shape and final proofing was in fridge for 22h - with minimum rise. Because of this i let it on the counter for about 2h . Preahet the stone at 300C for 50 min, bake with steam injected for 15 minutes at 230C , heat up and down for 15 minutes - no fan , and final 10 minutes at 210 with convection. If you have any recomandation to bake bread on a combi steam oven please do. I have so many options - 100% steam , 30 % steam - fan assisted , heat up-downd , no fan, heat up or heat down only , heat up fan assisted, heat down fan assisted, convection mode....and really don't know which one work best for bread baking.  

No more talking and here are the result - no crumb yet, it is still cooling :) :

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Firstly crumb is more open than my previous and taste is just a little more sour cause of the retarded dough at 3C .

And picture : 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

was because I couldn't taste it so I felt cheated :-) Normally I would deduct 5 for that but this one is just too good for such a  harsh no taste taste penalty .  3 B'S and OSM too!  Doesn't get any better than that. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

That’s amazing! Less than one month ago, you make your first starter. And now, you make this beauty.

Since you’ve bypassed the many failures most of us experienced in our sourdough journey, you’ll never know what it feels like to be a mere mortal. LOL

Outstanding, we look forward to seeing your future successes.

Dan

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Hi,

I am really honoured to get such a kind words from you guys. This is a huge  kick in my ass and motivate me to continue ! :)

Yes, I discovered sourdough baking 1 month ago from @Coduta blog and before that i never bake a bread before in my life. I have a great experience with cooking , i am not a proffesional...just pure passion. From 1 month my new passion is baking bread :) . I have a lot to learn but i am really happy that through @Codruta blog where i found a lot of valuables informations ..i found this wonderfull forum also. Hammelmans book is also a "bread Bible" for me. I am really interested to learn how the "chemistry" work in baking and how small adjustments goes to your desired results. 

Tommorow i will try Vermont but i don't know yet if i should retard or not? What do you think about retarding on this recipe? 

Thanks,

Sorin.

 

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

"Tomorrow i will try Vermont but i don't know yet if i should retard or not? What do you think about retarding on this recipe?"

Sorin, I agree with all of the above comments.  You are making fantastic progress.

I have baked Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough a couple of times, and I retarded the shaped loaves overnight both times.  It is a fairly stiff dough without a lot of extensibility,  Scoring was very easy because of the texture of the dough, especially when coming out of the refrigerator.  My suggestion is that you follow his recipe this time and then determine whether you want to make any changes the next time.

Happy baking.

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Hi,

Folowing this post: https://www.theperfectloaf.com/store-sourdough-starter/  i've been devolped 2 dry methods of sourdough starter storing - drying and crumble - . I will store crumble after complete drying with some extra flour to better absortion of humidity and refresh it every 6 months.

Here is what i got : 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

No need to refresh dehydrated starter, in my experience. If you want to backup your backup you can dehydrate a new batch a year or so later. 

Dan

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Hi Dan,

I was thinking of the crumble since it contain extra flower with an usual expired date of 6 months.

Sorin.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I have no experience with floured starters, just dehydrated.

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Hello again,

Today bake .... Hamelman recipe for Vermont with proofing time for about 1:30h then a retarding  for about 18h. Get the dough out from the fridge, preheat oven for 1h  and bake . 

My conclusion is that i like to work with more than 65% hydratated dough . This was too stiff and quite hard to work with it . Maybe next time i will increase 3-5- 7 % more to see the difference,   with a little more work of the dough , allmost fully develop gluten and bake in the same day....more like " Pain au Levain" from the same book. 

About mistakes ...i think i cut to deep this time and the dough was kneaded a liitle less as i want. Shaping wasn't good also...i think . Proofing was made in a couche and use as a support a  loaf pan 30cm long, 10 cm wide - still missing banettons :(.

This is the result....please feel free to comment, especially what could i improve : 

Thanks! 

 
Abe's picture
Abe

That is a lovely bake with a nice ear going on there.

The only advice I could offer is perhaps be a bit more adventurous in the bulk ferment. It certainly had enough time in the final proof stage as long as the bulk ferment was utilised to its full potential. But other then that that's a good bake.

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Thanks Abe, bulk was 2:30 min ...as always, with only 2 SF at 50 min interval. I agree that didn't see much activity on bulk, that was the reason i let it proofing 1.30 min on the counter. Do you feel is underproofed? 

Sorin.

Abe's picture
Abe

I think somewhere long the line the ferment wasn't done fully. Be it levain, bulk ferment or final proof stage. I'm thinking you could have left it longer at the bulk ferment stage (obviously taking into account that the levain build went well) till you noticed more activity. This would have given a open and even crumb.

Sorin's picture
Sorin

I am thinking about levain , was my first time when i work with 125% hidratation - built it over night and in the morning i found a lot of activity ...smaller bubbles than a 100% ..."soap" bubbles on top...but it was raise like 1/3 . Could be over ripe ? Usually my 100% starter raise like 2 1/2  - 3 times before is fully develop.  I will make another experiment tommorow with 125% levain to see how is develop over the day.  

Thanks! 

Abe's picture
Abe

will not rise as much as a 100% hydrated levain. It should be full of small bubbles and frothy when ready. Will smell lovely too. If left for the full recommended time then that should be fine. 12-14 hours if I remember correctly.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I've been working a fair amount in the past year with 125, white as well as rye flour levains.  If the levain was "over ripe" you would see it start to recede down the sides of the vessel. This is for a white levain.  A rye version of it would grow way more and there would be visible alveoli/gas bubbles throughout the levain.

If you really want to experiment, make each side by side to record the differences.

Your Vermont SD looks just dandy.  Very nice indeed.

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Some " rat holes"  : bad shaping ? 

Abe's picture
Abe

This could be down to an uneven crumb more than shaping. Your shaping looks fine.

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Hi,

Is this look right to you guys to use it ?

It is double in volume , not colapsed and i see some bubbles too : 

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Hi, 

Hamelman version of pain au levain but like 70% hydration . I start from 67 but i then i add another grams after autolyse. My goal was some of like thinner crust , "mild" taste and a crumb more open than yesterday Vermont. I use AP flower and 5% rye and after 45 minutes autolyse i add salt, stiff levain and a little bit more water. I was thinking to do more like 200 slap and fold on the table ....but i was having a big surprise : my dough start to disintegrate - like over kneading...i said ...OMG...i destroy it. :( . I put it imediatelly on a boal and start bulk...no more kneading. :) 

Happy baking! 

Bake it in same day and got this : 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

That is a beautiful bread. You really never know how the dough will turn out until you bake it. 

It is standing tall and proud with great ears. The crumb looks wonderful! Your crust looks pretty thin to me. Did the crust turn outlike you wanted?

Dan

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Quite so, much thinner than Vermont but i wish a little more :) . I am thinking to short the autolyse to 15-20 minutes and do more slap and folds. What do you think? 

Thanks,

Sorin.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I don’t know how to bake super thin crust. I am under the impression that ultra thin crust is baked in commercial deck ovens with steam injection. But I hope I’m wrong. I’d love to produce that in my home oven.

I find that baking at lower temps makes for softer crust. If I bake hot, the crust is thick and the bread chewy.

Danny

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Here i am at 6th time when i bake a bread :) 

Today baking is sort of pain au levain formula from Hamelman but with some changes - 90AP and 10 WW spelt flour , 7% toasted sesame seeds added and increase water to 72% . Because of WW and seeds dough feel like under 70% maybe 67- 68% idk. :) Total dough was like 1150g and was intended to shape a boule but since i want to get more experience , divide in 4 and make mini batards :) .

Taste is verry good, my wife said that are the best since now. :) . I don't like sesame too much ...so for me is no 2 or 3 . 

Again scoring was a mess! :) Shaping was much better than previous time . 

I followed : https://youtu.be/PmxDKuGLWuE and this one  : https://youtu.be/xUeS2PSXtP8 ...helped me a lot. 

Results down here : 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Your breads look great to me in all respects.

Your crust looks better. Did it turn out thinner, like you wanted?

Great Job!

Danny

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Hi Danny,

Thanks for you kind words! Crust was thinner , like it but i think it was also because baking time was reduce with 10 min and also use higher temp. I want to make again roasted potato with herbs since i did that formula only with pate fermentee and try bigger loafs - like 2kgs - " Miche style" . 

Wish me luck! :) 

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Hello friends,

This is my 7th attempt trough the magic of baking. :) . I was thinking to do 1 2 3 sourdough recipe and started from 200g sourdough starter. Flour 100% AP. 

Autolyse 30 minutes, then slap and fold until the magic was happened - yesterday i was feeling for real how the dough become lighter, smoother ...full of air and - i did like 300-400 SF - you can't immagine how happy i was . Gluten was allmost fully developed. 

Bulk 2:30h with 2 SF at 45 minutes then retarded for 17h . Rest for 1h on the counter with minimum preshape just after i take it out from the fridge , shaping and proofiing for about 1:45h . 

Again, scoring was a mess. :( 

Preheat oven at 300C , steam injection for 15 minutes , conventional 15 minutes at 230C then convection for 12 minutes at 210C. 

This is my nr 1 for taste !!! 

Rest for 30 minutes to cool and then eat allmost half of it : ) :) :) 

Pictures : 

Before final proofing : 

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

Sorin, you have made such great progress in a really short amount of time (but you are also practicing, which is part of what is required to improve). You clearly have so much enthusiasm for baking, and for me the joy and pleasure of working with dough is one of the main reasons that I really like to bake bread.

Your loaves look fabulous (including the sesame loaf above).  Thanks for posting.  Keep baking!

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Thanks,

Today i also make some sandwich rolls with stiff levain , 15% preferment flower, 72% hidratation , 2.5% extra virgin olive oil , 2.5% sugar and 0.5% herbes de Provence , sprinkled with sesame seeds - my wife preference.

I was so excited to bake them ...this was translated in a big fail => underproofed . :) . 

I am confident that the result with a retarded dough or a finished proofing will be amazing .

Result down here

 

 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The holes in the crumb in the bottom image look like flowers. So, you're an artist :-) I dig the little breads...

I have noticed in my breads and also in a number of images on the TFL a particular crumb structure. It is pictured in your bottom image. The crumb in tight near the crust and has large holes in the center. I am trying to learn what causes that.

My interest in the crumb as it relates to under and over-proofing have lead me to start an experiment. I don't think that troubleshooting crumb is a skill in which many of us are proficient. I often an image of a crumb and some replies say, it's over-proofed while others (looking at the same image) claim it is under-proofed. I know for a fact, I am clueless in this area. If interested, here is a link to my present testing. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/57309/experiment-learn-under-and-overproofed-dough . In that post I link to a YouTube video that I published detailing some of my findings.

Danny

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Trying to save this one but no succes . This is how is looking an overproofed loaf? I slap and fold this dough untill i had a smooth windowpane with 45 minutes autolyse . Hidratation is 71% , bulk 3h and final proofing 2h...but i forgot to preaheat the oven and put the dough in the fridge for another hour . Could be anything else also? 

Picture : 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I think your dough was under-proofed

Dan

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

because you have a few big holes but surrounding them the crumb is tight with very small holes. 

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Agree with both , but poke test and raise during final proof tell me the oposite. That's why i retarded for 1h after 2h of proofing ,  until the oven was heaten. Maybe i was fooled because the dough was softer than other days. 

I want to understand if an intensive kneading with a verry good gluten developement could lead to that result or anything else. 

Thanks,

Sorin.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

If I understood correctly, you did a finger poke and the dough was sluggish to recover. If that is the case, you may have pressed on top of a large pocket. There does appear to be a small void under the dark spot on the right side of the crust. Maybe next time depress the dough in several places. 

If you look at the image above and notice how firm and tight the crumb is, it is difficult to image that the skin wouldn’t recover from the poke. The bread bloomed very well, indicating that excess gas was available at the time of bake. An over-proofed bread has exhausted all possibility of additional gas. It is in decline, it can’t rise.

After completing a number of proofing test I have started placing a firm hand on the top of the dough and lightly pushing down. The dough should resist the pressure and be bouncy. If it gets to the point that the dough offers very little or no push back, it is probably over-proofed. The dough should mantain a lively feel. At least that is my present thoughts.

Dan

Sorin's picture
Sorin

Thanks Dan, i will be more carefull next time :) . If i remember corectlly more than 75% ( 3 or 4 ) of the loaf bake in same day was a fail for me ...so it is time to change something . :) . I will pay more attention to final proofing - it is diffrent from a retarded dough . 

Sorin.