The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Confused about Dough Development

texasbakerdad's picture
texasbakerdad

Confused about Dough Development

OK... I know that many commercial artisan bakeries use dough mixers to produce their loaves. Hence, I can conclude that excellent artisan loaves can be produced with mixers.

I own a KitchenAid and an Electrolux Assistant. I also own two hands, a bit small for my size, but they are mine.

Here is my confusion:

99% of the loaves I have ever made were made using either the KitchenAid or the Assistant. I relied on them to both mix the ingredients and completely develop gluten. Recently, I have been reading about tartine loaves, open crumb, lacy crumb, molten crumb, etc. and I have been reading how to achieve that crumb. The way I understand things is that when doing artisan loaves by hand, part of the gluten development occurs during the initial mix and the rest of the gluten development occurs during the bulk proofing process.

So, now, if I want to switch back to my mixer for larger batches or to save time, am I supposed to mix less so that I don't fully develop the gluten? By fully develop gluten, I mean, make the dough too elastic and risk having a difficult time executing folding intervals during the bulk proof.

OR... am I just confused, am I supposed to always mix to window pane prior to moving on to builk proofing?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

that mixers tend to rush the mixing process unles carefully watched and stopped.  Gluten development is dependent first on hydrating the flour so mixing other than to moisten the flour is a waste of time and only heats up the dough causing friction. Continual mixing too early is not good.

 My most eye opening discovery about that initial mixing up the dough happened when my son was a toddler.  Always interruptions!   Kids come before baking.  I had started to mix up a dough and sure enough, as I was just getting all the flour wet, had to leave the dough.  It sat for roughly 20 minutes, can't quite remember exactly, but the dough didn't suffer for it.  In fact, I changed to repeating this, had no idea it had a name... so I called it my "mix and leave it alone for a while" method.  

Anyway, using a machine mixer tends to rush one into the next following steps.  Perhaps unwittingly forcing one to add more flour (dryer loaves) to get through the procedure to develop the dough before it is ready to cooperate.  I found that by the time the flour had properly hydrated, the rest of the mixing and kneading was so easily, grated I only mixed a kilo of flour at a time, but I simply  stopped using a mixer.  Time was my friend.  Interruptions made my bread texture better and I wasn't so stressed during mixing.  I had more time to notice the dough and learn from it.

so that is my take on the subject... 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Here is what Hamelman has to say about mixing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnxiawZoL4A  

texasbakerdad's picture
texasbakerdad

That video thoroughly answered my question and confirmed my suspicion. So you don't have to watch the video if you are reading this thread, the master baker, Hamelman, says that in the King Arthur bakery they use their mixer to properly mix the dough and then continue mixing to partially develop the gluten. He says the remaining gluten development happens while folding the dough during the bulk proofing stage. Or... just watch the video, it is great and you can see the mixing and the folding during bulk proofing.

texasbakerdad's picture
texasbakerdad

I mixed 2 doughs yesterday. I decided to autolyse the dough/water that wasn't in the poolish. I just barely combined the water and flour and was careful not to do any kneading or stirring as I didn't want to develop gluten without any leavening in the dough. I stuck the autolyse in the fridge while the poolish was growing. When the poolish finished I pulled the autolyse out of the fridge and wow... so much gluten had developed, I had to work it really hard to get the poolish to penetrate the autolyse. I was surprised.

Lessons learned:

  • Make your autolyse really watery, or your hands and arms will hate you when it comes time to mix it back in.
  • No-knead gluten development happens a lot faster than I expected (4 hours in the fridge). I wonder if the lack of salt contributed to the speed of the gluten development.
Empire's Chef Chris's picture
Empire's Chef Chris

I have the luxury of using a spiral mixer daily and that just does wonders when mixing. I work with a lot of different bakers and have seen a lot of methods. I use a mixer but only mix for a total of about 6-7 min and then let the gluten develop of a long bulk fermentation with a couple of folds. I recently worked with someone that mixes for a total of 19-20 min but then no bulk fermentation. He let it sit for a half hour, pre shape then another half hour rest, final shaping then half hour proof then into the oven and everything came out beautifully (but in my opinion lacked flavor) so there are different ways to approach it but its what works best for you.

texasbakerdad's picture
texasbakerdad

Regarding the baker who did all gluten development in the spiral mixer, did you get to see the crumb of their loaves?

Empire's Chef Chris's picture
Empire's Chef Chris

I did get to see the crumb. It had a decent crumb, a little more dense then what I would have liked but for all that mixing it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be.

texasbakerdad's picture
texasbakerdad

thanks for the additional details!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

doughs may also be tricky to epoxy together.  The cooler one may be stiff, the Poolish runny. 

Lack of salt may speed up fermentation but hardly help gluten development.  In fact if a familiar dough seems sticky and slack, double check the salt (taste the dough) to make sure it wasn't forgotten.  :) 

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I usually make batches from two to 14 loaves (I bake for a small customer base and my wee bread shop). I have an Ankarsrum and a 30 litre commercial planetary mixer (Univex). I also have small hands and some joint issues, so very seldom mix by hand (unless I'm making one loaf of something). I usually mix either flour & water, or flour, water and levain, in the mixer then cover it and let it rest for 30 minutes or so. Then I add other stuff (salt, etc) and mix for anywhere from four to eight minutes, depending on the dough. I almost always stretch & fold the dough every 30 minutes for the first hour or two.

I think the bigger impact on the finished crumb comes from the fermentation, personally.