The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Tartine bread help!! Please

Thalia0503's picture
Thalia0503

Tartine bread help!! Please

hello 

i used tartine bread recipe for country bread and taste is great but it collapsed when I tranfered though from Basquet to Dutch oven, it had at least 19 hours fermentation 

any idea to how to get taller loaf and bigger wholes? 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

In the fridge I hope.

Thalia0503's picture
Thalia0503

Yes in the fridge

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Now for recipe and method followed and how the dough handled until refrigerated.

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Most people on this forum have to change the timings for the Tartine breads to work. Generally they are hugely over-proofed (and yes, collapse in the oven) if the method in the book is followed. There are a few things you can change (but then, of course, it's not strictly a 'Tartine' bread anymore):

  1. Change the hydration (many people lower the hydration to 72 to 75% with success)
  2. Make a stiffer starter. Keep the overall hydration of the dough the same but put more of the total flour (or less of the total water) in the starter. This should give you a 'taller' loaf
  3. Download and read "Open Crumb Mastery" from Breadwerx.com, to find out all the things you can try to make bigger holes. :)
not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Hi Lazy Loafer,

I am intrigued what you say about the 'stiffer starter' but could I clarify using Trevor's Tartine Country Loaf as an example?

250g Bread Flour
96g Whole Spelt
48g Whole Rye
330g Water
9g salt
75g Starter @ 100% Hydration (half all-purpose flour, half water)

 

What would be the best way to create a stiffer levain and how would this change the grams in the above recipe.?? I am very sorry for the hassle and need really to look more at baker's percentages... Kat

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I’ve also heard that stiffer starter/Levain makes for a stronger dough, but I have no idea why. I’d also like to know the thinking behind this.

I have also heard that a stiffer autolyse with a double hydration (bring the dough to the proper hydration) results in stronger gluten. The claim is, if the dough is too wet it hinder the gluten development. But I have no working experience with either method.

Dan

”inquiring minds want to know”

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

i actually started a reply this morning. In it I wrote that it was simple to figure out the calculations. As I started to explain how t was done I couldn’t figure it out :-) . So I cancelled the post.

So here it is over 12hr. later and without consciously thinking about it; it popped into my mind. (Even when we are not thinking, our minds continue to process our inquires”. Here goes.

Let’s  say we want to use a 60% Levain instead of our original 100%. And we want 100g Levain. A starter or Levain ratio of 1:3:5 will get us 60%. (3 is 60% of 5) In that ratio there are 9 parts. 100/9=11.11 . So, 11.11 (11g) starter + 33.33 (33g) water + 55.55 (56g) flour

Now a 100g of 100% starter/Levain contains 50g water + 50g flour.

For the water, subtract 33g from 50g = 17g water that will be needed to add to the final water

For the flour, subtract 56g from 50g = -6g that will need to be subtracted from the final flour.

Math and formulas aren’t a strong skill for me, so I use common sense for things like this. Maybe someone will chime in with a more simple explanation. 

But the Dough Calculator can figure all of that for you...

Danny

If you want we can FaceTime tomorrow. That way we can get more confused Hehehe...

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and I fed the starter twice now using the 60% hydration formula 1:3:5 and was ready to use this morning with the Tartine Country. I let you know the result but the dough did feel a bit firmer although I had to add more water to make up the water from the starter...we shall see...all worth trying......   Kat

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Looking at the crumb, you might not be far off.  It's beautiful, and I bet it tastes amazing.  This is pretty close how Tartine's bread's crumb actually looks.

Handling high hydration dough takes a lot of practice in itself, and then add in Tartine's relatively high temps and long fermentation times, and you could find your dough over-proofed.  I'm not convinced yours is by the look of it, but it's certainly one possibility.

It would be helpful if you gave more detail about what you did, including hydration, time, and temperature at each stage.

Thalia0503's picture
Thalia0503

I do not remember exactly but the first day I mixed and did an autolyse for 1 hour or so, then I did  a bulk fermentation for 3 1/2 hour also the first day from 3-6 pm then I left it overnight in fridge in bowl before Bench rest, the next day I took dough out of fridge at noon and gave it its bench rest, but I noticed that the gluten was tearing and it was very wet and hard to shape. So it might also be in the shaping that I did something wrong? After shaping I put in banneton and put it in fridge for overnight rest. The next day, which is now third day, I baked it at 7am 

Thalia0503's picture
Thalia0503

Hydration is 75 % I used the tartine country bread recipe 

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Why did you think to do an overnight cold bulk ferment and another overnight cold final rise?  It's not the usual practice, but sounds like an interesting experiment.  The typical practice, and what Tartine does (I recently asked a baker when I was there) is a warm bulk ferment followed by a cold final rise.  (Aside: this surprised me because I read somewhere that they did a cold bulk and warm final rise.)  This long a ferment risks over-fermentation.  The tearing and wetness could be from the over-fermentation and resulting breakdown of the gluten structure.

You don't mention stretch and folds.  Did you not perform any?  Periodic folds are an important part of shaping, as Tartine and other instruct.  This isn't to say that you can't have success without them as some no kneed person will shortly tell me.

Since over-proofing is a possibility and you have done an unusually long proof, and shaping is also in question, I'd eliminate some of the time and bolster your shaping.  Try a warm bulk proof, with folds every 30 minutes as per Tartine, do both a pre- and final shape, and then proof overnight and bake straight from the fridge.  Unless you're generally comfortable with very wet dough, lower hydration a bit just to be sure you tackle the structural problem.  My sense is that you aren't far off from greatness.

 

Leticia's picture
Leticia

Hello, I have the tartine cookbook and have loved the results so far, although the height hydration recipes have been a huge learning curve for me!

As per the recipe, the bulk ferment is followed by initial shaping and bench rest (20-30 mins). After the bench rest, the dough is then given its final shaping (using the specific folding techniques explained in the book, which Chad refers to as ‘structural folding), after which the shaped loaf is placed into a banneton. Then it is left for final proofing either at room temp for 3-4 OR in the refrigerator overnight.

So it may be something as simple as misreading or misinterpreting the recipe. Hopefully you will have more success in future. I also found this video helpful:

https://youtu.be/cIIjV6s-0cA

Here you see Chad in action with his folding!!

 

happy baking

Leticia's picture
Leticia

*high hydration