The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

A not so HOL-E war..

Bread1965's picture
Bread1965

A not so HOL-E war..

Wasn't it Einstein that said something like: doing the same thing, expecting a different result is the definition of insanity!?!   Well, that's what I feel like right now..

In my ongoing quest to figure out how to make a very open crumb bread per Trevor Wilson I gave this another go this weekend. I decide life is too short to eat white bread, so this time I made two loves with identical flours but slightly different hydration.

 

They have 350g bread flour, 100g whole wheat flour, 85g dark rye flour with 50g of a 100% hydration AP flour starter. Hydration in the first loaf  above was 65% and 70% in the second. I'm trying to work on my technique to see how hydration impacts how I deal with the process. The 65% hydration loaf was clearly stiffer than the 70% hydration loaf.

I was fairly aggressive in trying to incorporate the starter, etc. and then limited my stretch and folds. In the first 90 minutes I gave it three single sets of (four) stretch and folds - rotating the bowl a quarter turn on each.  Each of those stretch and folds were stiff and I felt like I was pulling the dough too much to make them happen. And then gave them another three stretch and folds over the next four/five hours. At the time I pre-shaped it began to FEEL more airy (but not too far) and was about at a 30-40% rise in the dough.

My starter was very active, well fed and kept in a warm (76-78 degree) spot as was the dough kept during bulk.

I didn't over work the pre-shape. I let it sit for half an hour and then did a final shape. Into the baskets and then I put them into the fridge for about 14/15 hours. Here's the crumb shots 65% to 70% respectively.. the first shot's colour is off just because of lighting when I took the picture..

I'm no closer to getting to a HOL-E crumb. But I'm waging the battle with good intention. The breads both taste lovely and toasted with 'chateau du bourgogne cheese' taste spectacular! The wine helps too! I think I need to go back and re-read Trevor's book from the start and see what I'm doing wrong. I'm getting better at developing structure of the loaf and getting a good bloom / oven-spring, but I wonder if I should have let the bulk proof run longer than to a 35ish percent increase in dough volume (which I think is what he goes for).. The dough didn't really expand much in the fridge.  I was rushed but perhaps could have left them out this morning to warm up and maybe expand more.. thankfully I can eat my experiments!  All advice and insight welcomed!

Bake happy... bread1965!

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

in the fridge. But the oven spring seems pretty good for the most part. 

I think you might have something when you mention the bulk fermentation. I let mine go until I see two or 3 bubbles on the edges and that the bubbles through the sides (I use a translucent cambro bucket) are irregular and there are lots of them. My dough yesterday hit about 50 - 60% rise by the time i seemed it ready to divide and shape. 

And speaking of shaping, what technique are you using? I don’t degas the way Hamelman does in this link but I do tuck the ends under a little more gently than he does and then I do that funny rounding thing that he does for boules. This seems to keep the gas in and make for a nice tight skin that stays nice and tight. 

https://youtu.be/PmxDKuGLWuE

Hopefully something helps. 

Bread1965's picture
Bread1965

I think you're right that I should let it proof longer.. maybe get to the 50% size increase and see how that impacts the bread's crumb.  I also think the fact the bread had such a strong bloom when baked probably means that the dough didn't bulk long enough (but then again you'd think the long fridge proof would have offset that).. 

And I think my shaping should be gentler too.. I looked around for a video to show you what I do.. it's a play on what trevor does  in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YSzK4_uM6s  I do everything he did in that video except the stitching as the dough was too firm for that.. Now here's one more thing.. I did that for the pre-shape and the shape.. I think I should do this for the pre-shape going forward as it's gentler : https://www.instagram.com/p/BH2JBsIg7So/?hl=en  and only do the shaping from the first video on the final shape.

I think next time I'm going to bake with 75% hydration and a longer proof... and of course go back and read Trevor's book again.. thanks!

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

It looks much better than what I get. 

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

In the video linked below with Trevor's artistry at work it is over 85% hydration and way less whole grains . Your crumb and crust pics are gorgeous !!  I wouldn't change a thing with bread that looks like those you just posted. If you want the look of Trevor's breads you should copy the following video. c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgz0oAhgwyg

Bread1965's picture
Bread1965

That's a great video.. in his book he makes a very open crumb with 65% hydration. .. but you're right he does it only with bread flour.. my hydration was too low for the level of whole grains I had used.. Thanks for the feedback!

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

to get feedback and a different perspective . Your breads are beautiful !!!   

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

hydration is the crumb you should expect and received.  Nothing wrong with that.  today I have less than half your whole grains at 72% hydration and it feels a little bit tight to me so I am upping it a bit to 74% but I am used to very high hydration breads.  For your bread I would start at 75% hydration and see how it feels during the first set of slap and folds.

I think your bread is pretty well done.

Happy baking

Bread1965's picture
Bread1965

I was thinking to go to 75% and see how it feels. I was also wondering about expansion.. how much of an increase in volume do you want to see in your bulk and then in your proof? I don't recall what you think is best..

And as I said somewhere above, I think the bloom I got was in part a function of not having let the yeast burn off some of that energy through bulk and proof, so it almost looks like it blew out a bit.. I think because I scored it well enough it came out fine.. do you agree?

Thanks for the feedback..

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I agree too that perhaps the bulk needs to go a bit more. I think my last lot was more like 50% but the appearance of the dough plays a part too.

I am re reading the book and after trying a few things it makes even more sense.

look forward to next bake with 75% hydration. these loaves look awesome though!

Leslie

pul's picture
pul

Very nice results and I like the crust on this one. The good thing about being a home baker is that we don't need to stick to standards. Experimentation is open. Looking forward to seeing your next result.

Bread1965's picture
Bread1965

Thank you pul..

I'm sure having fun along the way..

Bake happy..