The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Lactobacillus

plevee's picture
plevee

Lactobacillus

I joined the Dunn lab Sourdough Starter project and recently received the results on the bacteria present in my starter. It apparently has a vast preponderance of Pediococcus whereas most others have mainly straightforward Lactobacilli. Can anyone comment on how this might affect taste or rise?  Patsy

 
Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Mine too! I googled this bacteria and taste profile is rather like Chardonnay :) 

A drink to our starters. 

It might be handy to know how to make the most of our starter profiles so looking forward to answers. 

plevee's picture
plevee

My starter rises the dough well, even at low temperatures. It produces a loaf with no distinct sourness - but that might be because it is refreshed several times before each use. I haven't noticed the taste or effect of Chardonnay.  How does your bread turn out?  Patsy

   
Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

It is a strong starter. Doesn't need as much refreshment as others put theirs through to get a healthy growth and my fermentation times often seems be quicker than the recommended times in recipes.

Many people here seem to get ridiculously long fermentation times out of seemingly too much starter in my experience. I often have to tread more carefully otherwise it would over ferment.

Getting tang out of my starter is no easy task. My breads are often flavoursome but doesn't have that tang often associated with sourdough. The flavour I often get is a very flavoursome biga.

From Wiki: (and chardonnay is the typical type of aroma)...

Food processing

Pediococcus is, along with other lactic acid bacteria such as Leuconostoc and Lactobacillus, responsible for the fermentation of cabbage, making it sauerkraut. In this process, the sugars in fresh cabbage are fermented to lactic acid, which gives sauerkraut a sour flavour and good keeping qualities. Pediococcus bacteria are usually considered contaminants of beer and wine, although their presence is sometimes desired in beer styles such as lambic and Berliner Weisse. Certain Pediococcus isolates produce diacetyl which gives a buttery or butterscotch aroma to some wines (such as Chardonnay) and a few styles of beer. Pediococcus species are often used in silage inoculants. Pediococci are used as probiotics, and are commonly added as beneficial microbes in the creation of cheeses and yogurts.

plevee's picture
plevee

It doesn't sound like the best bug for bread but I'm happy with the results!  Patsy

 
Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Why should it be any less good for bread then any others. And if the others have the more common bacteria doesn't that make ours special and unique? 

It may not be tangy but it is tasty and the main thing is you're happy with it. Ours seem to be stronger than the more common strains so that might work in our favour. 

Perhaps all we need to do is learn how to bring out the best of our starters. 

1: my first theory is a high hydration levain.

2: use less starter to make up for it being stronger. Increase the fermentation time. 

That's it for now but something to think about. 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Besides SD bread, I make kimchi (it has been a while,tho), some pickles, kefir and yogurts. I imagine that some of my cultures move around. My SD is also not at all sour/tangy and is very wine-like in aroma when it is at its best.

Interesting!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

I think some of your culture made it's way across the ocean to mine :)

Our starters sound very similar. I don't get a pungent aroma in my starter. Others I have come across can smell quite strong. Wine-like is a good description - with floral notes.

It's got me thinking about when we make starters. We have to rely on whatever takes up home. There is no picking and choosing.

Although I will say this... My starter smells best when making a 125% hydration levain Hamelman Style. Really brings out something in my starter.

plevee's picture
plevee

I am British too. Maybe it's a lifelong skin inoculant.....

 
Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

An interesting theory. And why not? You could be onto something there. 

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

BUT they only total 0.2%. how come?  you guys must be special! I surely don't taste chardonnay either.  

It is facinating to see what is in our starters :)

Leslie

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

and how might one change it? Or is it all predetermined when the starter is made and there's nowt one can do about it.

Mine is predominantly Pedicoccus (can't remember which type 1,2, or 3 whatever the difference is) but there are others in smaller percentages.

I wonder if starters which have this should be used to make bread to go with a fish meal :)

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)
Gluten breakdown by lactobacilli and pediococci strains isolated from sourdough.Gerez CL1, Rollán GC, de Valdez GF.Author information
1
Centro de Referencia para Lactobacilos (CERELA-CONICET), Tucumán, Argentina.
AbstractAIMS:

To evaluate the growth and metabolic activity of lactobacilli and pediococci strains in a gluten base medium (GBM), formulated for a proper selection of proteolytic strains to be used in sourdough fermentation.

METHODS AND RESULTS:

Proteolytic activity by lactic acid bacteria (LAB) was evaluated by SDS-PAGE and by the amino acids released determined by reversed-phase high-performance liquid chromatography. Only 13 LAB (nine lactobacilli and four pediococci), among the 42 evaluated were able to utilize gluten as nitrogen source and to grow in GBM. Pediococcus pentosaceus CRL 797 showed a similar proteolytic activity to lactobacilli strains. In the majority of the cultures, basic amino acid group increased (c. 80% after 12 h incubation) mainly due to the release of ornithine, a flavour precursor of bread. Lysine, a limiting essential amino acid in wheat flour, increased by 150% in cultures of P. pentosaceus CRL 797.

CONCLUSIONS:

This study allows selecting P. pentosaceus CRL 797 and L. plantarum CRL 759 as potential starter culture for type III sourdough fermentation. It is shown for the first time that pediococci strains isolated from sourdough are proteolytically active on gluten.

SIGNIFICANCE AND IMPACT OF THE STUDY:

The physiological studies on gluten breakdown by LAB will contribute to the better selection of strains to produce breads with enhanced organoleptic characteristics.

plevee's picture
plevee

I'm afraid I don't understand the significance of this. I thought it was the action on carbohydrates that produced gas and acids and alcohol which were responsible for rise and flavour. This suggests that amino acids contribute too. I've always considered proteolysis undesirable. For the record, my starter is 99.22% Pediococcus!

 
Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Pediococcus pentosaceus CRL 797 showed a similar proteolytic activity to lactobacilli strains. 

Doesn't this mean they're similar? 

We sent in our starters more than a year ago. Since then I've made many new starters from many flours. They have all been amalgamated into my main starter. I have been told this adds character and health to the starter as it won't be so in-bred. It is believed that starters can change over time too (this has to be studied more though). I wonder if my starter has still the same specs as it did a year ago. 

Can't remember off hand but I think my results were very similar to yours. 

plevee's picture
plevee

Perhaps Debra Wink could help...

 

 
Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Some of which I added to my mother starter but I've kept it going for now. It's much slower then my normal starter and I'm sure it's different. Taking time to get used to it. 

Perhaps drop her a message.