The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Percent Levain vs. Percent Pre-Fermented Flour

philm63's picture
philm63

Percent Levain vs. Percent Pre-Fermented Flour

I've done a fair bit of searching here and on other websites, and have come to the conclusion that there is little consistency in the interpretations of "% Starter". Seems some consider the % starter to include the water in the starter, and others consider % starter just the pre-fermented flour.

Somewhere along the line I have fallen by the wayside regarding the quality of my SD loaves; they're getting further and further from where I want them to be, and I have nobody to blame except my own recipes! 

Not sure where I fell off, but I think I finally see the error of my ways - the percent levain. As I look back at some of my original notes when I started baking SD, I can clearly see where I would've used around 160g of active 100% hydration levain for a 900g loaf, and now for some reason my recipes are showing around 210g of levain for a 2kg batch! Should be closer to 400g, no? Assuming I'm trying to stay right around that same percentage...

I did the math the other day and about flipped my cookies - I'd been making loaves with only around 9% fermented flour. I get almost no change after bulk fermenting for 4 hours with a bunch of S&Fs in the first couple of hours; insufficient rise during the overnight proof in the fridge (37 F); and very little oven spring. Loaves are dense. Yummy, but dense. Sometimes I miss the window and they over-proof because I was waiting for at least a 75% increase in bulk - wasn't happening! I know some folks use low preferment percentages with great success, but I guess I'm just not one of those folks, so I'm gonna shoot for a much higher percentage until I get a better handle on things.

This next bake I am rebooting - just drafted a recipe that gives me 30% fermented flour! Yes, I know; that's a LOT of preferment!! I'm looking to do a batch in one day starting early in the morning, and baking that afternoon, and I am pretty sure with this much preferment, I should see proofing times of 3 or 4 hours on the counter at 72 F.

I've begun refreshing the levain on the counter at room temp just to get it active (I normally store it in the fridge), and plan on doing a multi-stage build for this batch starting with a 1:2:2 feeding, then another 1:2:2 feeding to get the levain built to spec, then build the dough from that. Starting Thursday night - bake Saturday afternoon. I hope...

The recipe:

790g KA Bread Flour

450g Water

680g Levain (@100%)

23g Salt

Mix flour and water, autolyse 1 hour, add levain and salt, mix by hand for a few minutes - S&Fs every 30 min for a couple of hours, then rest it for a couple of hours (bulk ferment?), preshape, rest 10 min, final shape and in to the bannetons to proof on the counter - probably 3 or 4 hours. 

I'd like to see some sour from this batch but I'm not proofing in the fridge, so it will be real fast compared to what I had done in the past. I just want to see if I can get a loaf that rises properly, springs up in the oven like it's supposed to, has a nice even crumb, light and airy texture, and has a nice sour bite to it.

I'm thinking a larger percentage of preferment should at least get me closer to that goal, no?

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Flour and water as that is what starter is. It's more common to think of starter percentages this way too. It can also be thought of as pre fermented flour but the starter % will stay the same and the pre fermented flour will be less if re written to show this percentage.  

More starter does not necessarily mean more sour. It's how you keep your starter, what flour is used, how far you take the fermentation of the starter/bread, controlling the temperature and rise time etc.

I think your recipe would produce a mild tang. 

I'd drop the Levain to just 10%. So 1kg of flour and 100g very mature 100% hydration starter which has been fed some wholegrain. Bulk ferment will take longer then final proof in the fridge for 8-12 hours. You can start with that and see how you go. Then you can further manipulate your starters tang by changing hydration of the mother starter and if using a lower hydration levain then you can up the percentage.  You can also bring the levain to maturity then refrigerate for 12 hours before using. But one step at a time. 

http://www.culturesforhealth.com/learn/sourdough/how-to-make-truly-sour-sourdough-bread/

drogon's picture
drogon

I use 30% levian (@ 100% hydration) in almost all the wheat breads I make. Tonight for example - 3 batches of dough - 3Kg flour, 900g levian per batch. It's fermenting in tubs at room temperature and tomorrow morning I'll scale, shape, proof and bake.

Your recipe above is a bit over the top though - you have 86% levian in your mix (as a percentage of flour - usual 'bakers percentages'). For 790g flour, I'd only be using 240g levian.

Saying it has 30% fermented flour is also a bit odd - I'd make that 680g levian have 340g of fermented flour it in - that's 340/790 = 43% fermented flour.

-Gordon

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Fast generally means less sour except for a short final proof at 90-92 F.  Abe's link above is a pretty good one.  Another way to get more sour is to use a bran levain too.  The key to getting a really sour bread is to increase the LAB to yeast ratio of he starter, levain and final dough.  Having mire LAB means mire sour.  Having less yeast means mire time for the LAB to make acid.  Making the LAB produce both acetic and lactic acid is the key to great SD bread with both sour and tang.  Temperature and hydration are the keys to getting both kinds of acid in your bread.

Having less pre-fermented flour means mire time and more time generally means a more sour bread.  If you use a huge amount of pre-fermented flour like you are planning to do means that you will get more sour in a fast time not more the more sour you would get overall with more time and different techniques..

It is combination of techniques, timings, hydration, flour and temperature that makes a great SD bread that has the best of everything.  Spring and bloom are nothing mire than fermenting and proofing a well shaped dough the dough properly.  Sour and other flavors that are well developed for the processes, temperatures and times used is what make the bread taste good and good tasting bread is the most important thing.

To make a fast bread that is more sour, then doing what you are doing should work for you but making a really great SD bread won't likely be the end result either.  I typically use less than 10% pre-fermentd flour in the summer and no more than 20% in the winter but the bread's taste has everything to do with the starter a NMNF whole grain stiff rye starter stored for up to 24 weeks in the fridge and a retarded whole grain bran levain made from it that is also retarded for 24-48 hours.  Building the starter and levain at high temperatures and higher hydration is also part of the process as is retarding the dough for final proof or doing  the final proof at 90-92 F. 

But if I need a fast bread that is sour then I do what you are doing.

 

philm63's picture
philm63

when I formulated that recipe. It's just that frustration is setting in - my loaves are getting denser and denser of late - I'm obviously doing something wrong, so I went back to my old notes and among them were suggestions of using a much larger preferment than I have been using.

Not that I necessarily need to be fast about it, just that I really really really want a batch that comes out light and airy with a good crumb, and I haven't been able to do that lately with a small preferment (less than 10%).

When I calculate my preferment, I am using the 340g of flour in the levain and adding that amount to my new flour (the 790g) giving me 1130g total flour. I do the same with my water, as bread is essentially flour and water (including the flour and water in the levain), no? This means I have 450g water in the recipe, and another 340 in the levain giving me 790g total water. The flour in the levain is used in my calculation of percent preferment - 340/1130 = 30% prefermented flour.

Agreed; that is too much - perhaps I'll drop it down to 20%. I know that 9% prefermented flour was not doing the trick for my loaves. I'm sure there are other fundamental issues I need to work on such as benchwork, bulk fermenting and proofing.

Assuming I tweak this recipe to have 20% prefermented flour, staying at 70% hydration, and using a happy bubbly levain built up over a few days, could I just stick to my usual bulk ferment as in my original post and proof overnight in the fridge to better develop flavor? Or is 20% preferment still too much for that - will it over-proof after 8 hours at 37F?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

have t make the bread and what kind if bread it is to determine how much pre-fermented flour to use.  It is 88 F in my kitchen.  Things happen very fast and the high temperatures favor LAB over yeast reproduction, in fact yeast reproduction is being restricted a small amount so any bench work for gluten development or bulk ferment will favor sour.  At 72 F LAB out produce yeast by 2% but at 88 F the yeast is reproducing at the same rate they do at 72 F but the LAB love the heat and are reproducing at 2.5 times faster than they do at 72 F.  This means the proofing of the dough or its rising is the same at 72 F as it is at 88 F and it ill take the same amount of time but the dough is gettig much mioe sour than it would at 72 F for that same amount if time.

SO if I was making a white bread,  I would be at less than 10% pre-fermented flour, would do 2 hours of gluten development and 1 half an hour f bulk on the counter and then either shape it for a retarded final proof in the fridge for 12 hours or just put it in the fridge for a 12 hour bulk ferment. with a final shaping and proofing the next morning.  The only difference between the two is that the shaped retarded loaf will have a bit more open crumb since it was handled 1 fewer time but the flavor of the bulk retarded loaf will be slightly sourer.

If was making a rye bread where the acid is what controls and hinders the amylase enzymes that break down the crumb structure in rye bread I would use 20% to get the acid up there pretty fast.  You have to remember that my NMNF starter hs more LAB to yeast in it to begin with and the my BRAN levain has a lot mire LAB to yeast in it so the acid and LAB to yeast ratio is pretty high.  So while some folks might use 30% or more pre-fermented flour in their rye breads I can get by with 20%, extend the proofing times, since there is less yeast in the levain and get a more sour and open crumb.

I would stick to 20% if I were you and remember that the times ill be roughly the same as before if your kitchen is the same in temperature in the summer as it is in the winter - unlike mine.  But if your kitchen is warmer in the summer like mine, things will take mush less time.  I personally think you are just over fermenting and and over proofing your dough if your spring and bloom is now non existent.  Get those right by watching the dough instead of the time and all will be well again.  In my house, where the temperature go from 68 to 88 F, things take less than half the time they do in the winter.  

philm63's picture
philm63

in an all KA Bread Flour recipe at 70% hydration in a 72 F kitchen, could I still expect a reasonably short proofing time considering I'd also have done a 4-hr bulk ferment in those same conditions?

Or should I cut my bulk ferment as you'd hinted at to, say, 3 hours total (including a bunch of S&Fs) or even 2 hours? Any idea what I could expect in terms of proofing time for this one?

I'm trying to time my bake to either squeeze it all in on Saturday, or do a longer cold proof and bake on Sunday. Depends on what 20% preferment in this particular recipe would do at 72F...

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

on 30 minute intervals and let it sit of 45 minutes.  Pre shape and then 10 minutes later final shape, wrap it in plastic and pop it in the fridge of a 1-12 hour nap.  If it over proofs while you sleep all you have to do is let it sit for 10 minutes and reshape it again the next morning and let it proof perfectly.

If it proof perfectly i the fridge you can bake it straight out of the fridge or if it is not quite risen enough let it warm up on the counter while the oven heats up.  The fridge is your friend and gives you all the flexibility to get the bread perfect.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

on 30 minute intervals and let it sit of 45 minutes.  Pre shape and then 10 minutes later final shape, wrap it in plastic and pop it in the fridge of a 1-12 hour nap.  If it over proofs while you sleep all you have to do is let it sit for 10 minutes and reshape it again the next morning and let it proof perfectly.

If it proof perfectly i the fridge you can bake it straight out of the fridge or if it is not quite risen enough let it warm up on the counter while the oven heats up.  The fridge is your friend and gives you all the flexibility to get the bread perfect.

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

You might also try keeping the low percent of levain, and leaving the dough to bulk ferment on the counter overnight instead of popping it into the fridge. I'm not sure what 'room temperature' is where you are right now. I have the luxury of a relatively cool basement, and some low-inoculation doughs turn out to be really beautiful when left down there overnight. In the morning they are soft, jiggly and puffy, and ready to shape, have a short proof and then bake. Might make it more sour too!

missylab's picture
missylab

So I know this is a little late and curious what your results are. When I heard 20% levain example 200 grams of total (100 grams of water and 100 grams of flour), I thought it was 200 grams of this per 1000grams of flour (I guess depending on whether you count flour and water towards the total flour and hydration). But, in Jeffrey Hamelman book, he uses % of fermented flour, not the total weight of the levain, around 15-50% depending on the recipe. Basically I have been putting way less levain than I should be, I think? And my bulk times are never what everyone else’s are, despite an active starter!

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

If you don't like what you are making, then change it.  Flour is cheap, time is expensive, so run multiple small batches in parallel and pick the best of the bunch around which to center the next set of trials.  There is another currently active thread that is debating how little levain you can use to initiate a batch.

Hamelman is one of the local gods so I view his guidance as a great place to start.  But it is only a suggestion.  If you have a good reason to deviate, then do it your way. You may come back, but you also may be off on a new adventure.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

the flour adding to 100%  If you have 500 g of flour total (including the levain) then a 10% pre-fermented flour levain would be .1 times 500 or 50 g of flour in the levain the formula would look like this at 70& hydration overall and 100% hydration levain using 5g of starter.  since the starter has both water and flour in it iwhen you start it is is the percent of total weight of the starter based on total flour.  This is the conventional way bakers use baker's percent but even some celebrity pro bakers like Chad Robertson don't use it  correctly but master bakers do like JH.  Better to use it correctly so everyone is on the same page, no explanation necessary and there is never ever any questions or confusion  - that not following the rules always happens.  Chad should know better.

Levain

1% starter - 5 g 

10% flour - 50 g

10% water - 50 g

Dough

90% flour- 450 g

60% water - 300 g

2% salt- 10 g

Total Dough

173% - 865 g

missylab's picture
missylab

And that’s my problem, I’ve always used the chad way...until I reopened my dusty JH book and realized, I wasn’t adding nearly enough levain. Thanks for clarifying!