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Making a New Starter — Alternative to Pineapple Juice

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Making a New Starter — Alternative to Pineapple Juice

I decided it was time to make a new starter.

My old starter had pooped out. I bake infrequently and my starter probably doesn't get refreshed as often as it should. It gets refreshed 8 hours before baking but most of the time it sits for months in the refrigerator where it makes plenty of hooch (ethanol). For my last two bakes I refreshed the starter as usual, 8 hours before making up the dough. After 8 hours there were plenty of surface bubbles and I thought I was going to have a good bake. What was missing, though, was the distinctive aroma I was accustomed to smelling from sourdough starter.

I baked the bread and got a nice rise and good oven spring, as well as some gas bubbles in the crumb. The problem arose when I tasted the bread. Unlike previous bakes which yielded nice, sour bread, these two bakes were completely lacking in sourness, and I mean completely lacking. Clearly the yeast were active in my starter but the LAB's were not, as they hadn't made any lactic acid to speak of. The taste of the bread told the whole story.

In teaching people to make starters I've had two failures. The starter gets to the leuc phase and doesn't recover. It smells like sour milk for several weeks and eventually gets discarded. This time I decided to try something different.

I had always resisted using the "pineapple-juice solution" because I didn't want to add fructose, citric acid, bromelain and other sugars and ingredients to my starter which are not endemic to a mature sourdough culture. I reread "The Pineapple Juice Solution" which describes Debra Wink's fine investigative work and experiments with acidifying starter water. Debra's intrepid investigators had tried several acids, two of which caught my eye because they are found naturally in sourdough cultures: lactic acid and acetic acid (vinegar). These two acids are the main souring agents in sourdough bread.

In their research, Debra and her team found that vinegar inhibited yeast growth so I discarded that idea. In addition, they decided not to experiment with lactic acid because they didn't want to deal with dairy products.

Having a pH meter and a supply of lactic acid powder on hand, I decided to do a little experimenting. I started with 100 grams of distilled water and calibrated my pH meter using pH 7.0 calibration solution. The distilled water had a pH of 4.3, a little acidic for water. Next, I added a small amount of lactic acid powder to the water, about one-half gram by my digital scale. I was measuring by weight but if I had to give and estimate of the volume I would say it was on the order of 1/4 teaspoon, maybe less. I stirred the water and the pH dropped from 4.3 to 3.5 — just the pH I was aiming for! I had been worried that it might take an impractical amount of lactic acid powder to bring the pH down to a level suitable for sourdough, but this concern turned out to be unfounded.

I added another 100 grams of water and enough lactic-acid powder to bring the pH down to 3.5. To this water I added flour until the mixture was milkshake-thick. I covered the vessel and left it to sit in an environment where the ambient temperature at this time of year is about 82 degrees F. I will stir it once per day, giving it no refreshments while it ferments. No starter will be discarded and no new flour or water added. I have successfully made several starters this way; naturally, the small number of failures have occurred when I was trying to show someone else how to make starter.

This approach is most assuredly for the purist who is reluctant to add pineapple juice to a starter. I paid $12 for a one-pound bag of lactic-acid powder, plus $15 for a pH meter, $8 for calibration solution and another $2 for a jug of distilled water. This adds up to $37 all told. You could save money by using pH paper instead of a pH meter and calibration solution. Still, the most economical solution remains pineapple juice.

Time will tell how this works out.

It's been a long time since I first tried making sourdough starter. It was rough going at first. The breakthrough came when I switched from whole-wheat flour to either all-purpose or bread flour with "malted barley flour" on the ingredient label. Malted barley flour is also known as diastatic malt and contains amylase which facilitates the breakdown of starch into simpler sugars. That really helped me get a sourdough starter going.

pmccool's picture
pmccool

If the addition of the flour to the acidified water moves the pH upward significantly, the mixture may not be as conducive to yeast and LAB growth as intended.  

Out of curiosity, what flour did you use?

this should be an interesting experiment. 

Paul

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Adding pineapple juice will affect the starter forever more. It just gives it a nudge in the right direction. After which you switch to water and the resulting starter is like any other normal sourdough culture.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

If the addition of the flour to the acidified water moves the pH upward significantly, the mixture may not be as conducive to yeast and LAB growth as intended.

The same would happen if pineapple juice were being used.

Out of curiosity, what flour did you use?

Gold Medal bread flour.

pmccool's picture
pmccool

The point that I did not communicate well is that you measured the starting pH of the water in the starter but did not measure the pH of the water/flour mixture.  Therefore, it is unknown whether you achieved the desired pH in that mixture.

Since I never measure the pH anyway, it's more of a pure knowledge interest rather than something that I expect to use on a regular basis.

As long as you have all of the setup, why not do a comparison run with either whole rye or whole wheat flours?  It would be interesting to see whether their incubation times are significantly different than the white bread flour.

Paul

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I get it about measuring the pH of the flour + water mixture.

I'm basically duplicating Debra's experiment, using an acidic liquid of 3.5 pH, same as pineapple juice. One thing I was curious about was whether it would take an impractical amount of powder to bring the pH down to 3.5. Apparently it does not, but the distilled water was pH 4.3 to start with, a bit on the acidic side.

The tap water here comes out at 7.7 pH, much more alkaline, so it would be interesting to see how much lactic acid powder is needed to bring that down to 3.5 - 4. That will be the next experiment.

My interest is in replicating San Francisco sourdough, so I don't keep whole-wheat or rye flours in the house. We know that in S.F. they used clear or "first clear" flour for the sponge/starter and patent flour for the dough, both of which are white wheat fours.

A few hours after starting this there were some surface bubbles, but those could be air bubble from the flour rather than gas bubbles from CO2.

I use lactic acid powder and vinegar for my main sour bread recipe, which I'm very pleased with. See my blog for the recipe.

Fatmat's picture
Fatmat

I just use organic flour and water. Works for me every time. Am I missing out by keeping it simple?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Allow nature to do the work. Flour and water is all you need. 

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Flour and water is all you need.

Read my original post again.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

... there are no bubbles anywhere and no leuconostoc odor. It smells like wet flour.

It's only been one day. I'm sure it will come around.

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

 
I stirred the water and the pH dropped from 4.3 to 3.5 — just the pH I was aiming for! I had been worried that it might take an impractical amount of lactic acid powder to bring the pH down to a level suitable for sourdough, but this concern turned out to be unfounded.

Surprising to many, but lactic is a stronger acid than acetic, so it has a much greater impact on pH.

 I will stir it once per day, giving it no refreshments while it ferments. No starter will be discarded and no new flour or water added. I have successfully made several starters this way

I've made starters this way too. Works just as well as feeding the first 3 days, and less work even if no faster. About the same time from start to finish. The important thing is not to forget to stir every day to keep mold from getting started. After 3 days it is usually acidic enough for yeast to activate, but may need a refreshment for them to germinate and take off.

I switched from whole-wheat flour to either all-purpose or bread flour with "malted barley flour" on the ingredient label. Malted barley flour is also known as diastatic malt and contains amylase which facilitates the breakdown of starch into simpler sugars.

Whole grain flours don't need added amylases for this, because they're already there naturally. Enzymes are present in the outer layers of the grain, but because they get stripped off in the milling of refined flour, the miller makes up for it by adding malted barley flour or another source of amylases. Just as enzymes are stripped away in the milling of white flours, so is the biofilm on the surface of the grain. This leaves the flour with much fewer microorganisms (about 200x less) to seed each stage of the succession in turn.



This photo shows a test I ran to demonstrate how much more effective whole grain is to the process. This was with just plain water --- no pineapple juice. The left jar is 100% white flour. The right jar is 100% whole wheat, and the middle jar is a 50/50 mix of the two. On day 2, all grew gassy bacteria, but the 100% whole flour started rising first, and you can see by the stair-steps that their starting times and progress were evenly spaced --- like an escalator going up. By the end of the day, they had all peaked at around the same height but at different times. The gaps in progress just magnified from there. The whole grain started growing yeast on day 7, while the 50/50 mix took 10 days. The all-white still wasn't growing yeast at 14 days and I stopped there. It would probably have taken off sooner or later, but the point was already demonstrated. For fastest results, use 100% whole grain flour until yeast show up, and then switch to or add white flour if you want a white starter or a mix.

If the addition of the flour to the acidified water moves the pH upward significantly, the mixture may not be as conducive to yeast and LAB growth as intended.

In the case of pineapple juice, it's there just to inhibit the leucs and company (which stall other LAB in the succession). That is accomplished as long as the pH stays less than 4.8 from the start. Pineapple juice gets a whole-grain flour batter down to around 4 (a stiff dough to around 4.5). It may get a white flour batter a little lower. But I find that wild yeast don't activate until the pH drops to around 3.5, or at least less than 4. If you wish to speed things up, try adding enough lactic acid powder (a little at a time) until you get the pH of your combined flour-water paste/batter down to 3.5 to activate the yeast. If you do that though, you should feed 12-24 hours later with plain water and flour to bring the pH back up above 4 again to give lactobacilli some latitude to grow. I got yeast activation on day 2 that way with citric acid.

About 24 Hours In
... there are no bubbles anywhere and no leuconostoc odor. It smells like wet flour. It's only been one day. I'm sure it will come around.

No bubbles or odor is what you want. It will take the bacteria about 2-3 days to drop the pH enough to activate yeast. After 3 days, feed it even if you haven't seen anything happen. Resources will likely be running low by then.

dw

doughooker's picture
doughooker

At 48 hours there were still no bubbles or leuc odor, just the smell of wet flour.

No bubbles or odor is what you want.

OK, cool.

All it gets is a stirring when I peek at it, to keep things dispersed.

Whole grain flours don't need added amylases for this

Wouldn't that depend on the falling number of the whole-wheat flour? All I know is that I didn't have any success making starters at all until I switched from whole-wheat to all-purpose flour, using the same distilled water for each.

There have been two failures when others tried to make plain flour and water starters. Maybe they would have had better luck using pineapple juice?

The all-white still wasn't growing yeast at 14 days

That's a lot longer than my all-white plain-water starters have taken (they usually start to smell yeasty within 7 - 8 days).

Here's how I prefer to make sour bread now. The finished product turns out quite well with an authentic and satisfying flavor, so what's the difference if starter is used or not?

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/49375/san-franciscostyle-sour-bread

phaz's picture
phaz

It works, it tastes good, who cares how it's made. I may even give it a shot some day. Never had real sfsd from the 70s so if that is a true representation of the flavor, it may be worth a try. 

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

Wouldn't that depend on the falling number of the whole-wheat flour? All I know is that I didn't have any success making starters at all until I switched from whole-wheat to all-purpose flour, using the same distilled water for each.

Was it multiple ww flours, or just one? Do you know the falling number of the flour in question? Did it also fail in breads leavened with commercial yeast? Answering these questions will help you rule in/out the flour as the problem. There are other possibilities for lack of success. And there's also a degree of statistical variation that comes with the process. Occasionally, a flour just doesn't have enough viable yeast --- more often with white flours; rare with whole wheat, but it can happen.

Here's how I prefer to make sour bread now. The finished product turns out quite well with an authentic and satisfying flavor, so what's the difference if starter is used or not?

If the bread is just the way you like it, that's good enough, no? And it's easier. Maybe even lighter. Is there a difference if starter is used?  Yes. There are many, many substances consumed and created during lactic acid fermentation besides lactic and acetic acids. Are they worth the extra effort? No one can decide that for you, but you.

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

Cook's Illustrated also uses vinegar to simplify the bread-making process, although they it as an improvement to Jim Lahey's method. They also use beer because they find it adds that yeasty complexity that is otherwise missing from commercial yeast.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

It works, it tastes good, who cares how it's made?

if that is a true representation of the flavor, it may be worth a try.

I like the way you think :)

If I couldn't get it to taste just like the real McCoy I would have given up on it and I sure as heck wouldn't continue to use it to bake for myself, and I double sure as heck wouldn't have published it. One advantage is that I have complete control over the sourness, but I don't recommend exceeding the B.P. values I have given or it will taste pretty odd.

I'm hoping one or more commercial bakers would take it up. I'm not sure about the economics for a commercial operation of lactic acid powder and vinegar as added ingredients, but the fact that there is a grand total of 2 hours of proofing time vs. 16 hours (8 hours for the sponge and 8 hours for the dough) must count for something. That's my theory for why SFSD isn't popular among bakeries any more -- that and the relatively short shelf life.

We have a grocery chain here in so. cal. which makes bread this way but they add fumaric acid, a common food souring agent, so that's cheating. Fumaric acid is not found in a natural sourdough culture. This grocery chain ships parbakes to their stores and bakes the finished loaves in the store. Another bakery sells the frozen parbake loaves directly to customers and the customer bakes it at home, but what they call sourdough isn't the least bit sour and is lacking in flavor.

If you go to San Francisco hoping to find authentic gold-rush-era sourdough, you're not going to find it, not at Fisherman's wharf, not at Tadich Grill or any of the smaller bakeries. Acme sourdough is close but not quite.

I do recommend glancing over that paper:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjb_46t9dfUAhVN82MKHbYGAwEQFggoMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aacc...

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Was it multiple ww flours, or just one? Do you know the falling number of the flour in question? Did it also fail in breads leavened with commercial yeast?

I was happy just to get a starter going. I would have to send flour samples to the California Wheat Commission to get falling numbers, which I did at a later time. I tried whole wheat and white whole wheat with no success in either case.

What I didn't do was to add a bit of diastatic malt. That may have helped things along and is a worthwhile experiment in itself. There seem to be a lot of unknowns associated with the flour.

This latest experiment, acidifying the water with lactic acid, is irresolute. The starter is bubbly but there is no discernable yeasty aroma. I smell a little bit of ethanol and that's it. It is unlike other starters I have successfully made in the past.

When I had the Gold Medal Bread Flour I'm using now tested, the falling number was 241.

If the bread is just the way you like it, that's good enough, no?

Yes it is. As the paper I linked to indicates, there were other acids present in the Larraburu sample in minute quantities. Lactic and acetic acids predominate and seem to be the most responsible for the flavor/sourness. If I served you my sour bread together with old-school S.F. SD (which is no longer available anywhere) or some sourdough made with a traditional starter, I very much doubt you could tell the difference.

Still and all, I would like to have a healthy starter in the house.

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

I tried whole wheat and white whole wheat with no success in either case.

If it was 1 of multiple flours, I might suspect the flour; but if all whole wheat flours, I suspect the method or the conditions. This, because many others in your state have successfully created starters with whole wheat flours. A negative control is always a good idea.

This latest experiment, acidifying the water with lactic acid, is irresolute. The starter is bubbly but there is no discernable yeasty aroma. I smell a little bit of ethanol and that's it. It is unlike other starters I have successfully made in the past... Still and all, I would like to have a healthy starter in the house.

It may just need more time to develop the aroma and acidity. It takes weeks of regular refreshing for a new starter's microbial community to completely transition and stabilize no matter how you create it.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

My lactic-acid starter experiment continues to languish. No bubbles, no foaminess, just a faint smell of ethanol.

One day ago, just for fun, I began yet another starter. After one day it is already bubbly and foamy and smells strongly of leuconostocs, i.e. spoiled milk. What did I do differently? For this new starter, instead of the distilled water used with the lactic-acid experiment, I used "mountain spring" water. I also added 1/4 tsp of diastatic malt. This bubbly/foamy/smelly phase after one day is more in keeping with starters I've made in the past and it inspires confidence. I have a feeling that in a few days I'll have a nice, yeasty-smelling starter. Whether the different water used plays a part is anybody's guess.

In an attempt to revive my old, pooped-out starter, I added more flour and 1/4 tsp of diastatic malt. It is starting to bubble and foam, too, and is giving off the smell of ethanol. The problem with the old starter was that it seemed to have plenty of yeast activity and would raise a loaf, but the loaves were completely lacking in sourness. This leads me to think the LAB's, if any, weren't actively producing lactic acid.

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

The problem with the old starter was that it seemed to have plenty of yeast activity and would raise a loaf, but the loaves were completely lacking in sourness.

I find that my firm starter loses souring activity after months in the fridge too, but that it's a temporary condition. If I keep it at RT for several refreshments it comes back. (But don't keep feeding if it isn't rising.) If you want LAB to come back faster, you could try reseeding it by refreshing a time or two with whole grain flour.

More time in the fridge requires more time to bring it back to full power.

Best wishes,
dw

doughooker's picture
doughooker

The lactic-acid starter experiment never really took off and has been discarded.

The diastatic-malt experiment, OTOH, started out very nicely. It was bubbly with leuc activity on the second day and is still bubbly and vigorous after a week and a half. It and my old refrigerated starter smell strongly of ethanol, so it's difficult to discern a yeast aroma. I won't be able to judge the souring power/lactic-acid content until I actually bake with them.

My sour-bread recipe using lactic acid powder and vinegar is a lot more convenient from the standpoint of not having to maintain a starter.

The big San Francisco sourdough factories used to refresh their sponges every eight hours, yet they never discarded any. They used it all up either for baking bread or for propagating the sponge.