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Very Low % Levain With LOOONNG Ferment Question

JamieOF's picture
JamieOF

Very Low % Levain With LOOONNG Ferment Question

I was thinking about trying this over the weekend but was wondering if anyone had any experience with it.

25 gms active mature starter (~ 6%) / 288 gms of water / 425 gms WAP unbleached and 6-8 gms of salt. That would work out to about a 68% hydration

What I'm looking for is a long room temperature bulk fermentation, 12-18 hours or longer, with proofing details to be worked out. Right now I just want to see what would happen with the ferment stage.

One of the things I'm concerned with is gluten degradation (don't remember the big word for that process, proto-something-or-other). Would that be a factor?

Jamie

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

That is why with very long fermentation time one would develop the gluten more slowly. For quick breads one kneads to speed up the process and for very slow breads one would increase the hydration and not knead at all. It's all about bringing the gluten development and fermentation into sync.

Look up 'Yohann Ferrant Do Nothing Bread'

JamieOF's picture
JamieOF

Thank you for posting the link. I guess it makes sense when one thinks about the strands in a jar of starter after being undisturbed for 6-8 hours. I just figured that was a very weak gluten and it needed S&F to strengthen it. 

One thing I'm curious about. They didn't show a round loaf in either of the 3 videos. Is that just coincidence or is dough easier to work in and out of oval bannetons? (Yeah, maybe overthinking again!)

jamie. 

JamieOF's picture
JamieOF

...... this was an impressive failure.

 

I've had almost no success with high % WW breads, so for my first try at this I thought I'd go all-white. Knowing WW is more absorbent than white, I dropped hydration down to 85% as a guess.

800 gms of white RH AP flour, 680 gms of room temp water, 16 gms sea salt and 15 gms of active mature starter.

I mixed it and left for 24 hours in a room that was ~ 70 deg F. When I uncovered it, it had risen nicely, more than doubled. But when I tried to do an S&F........., well, the results speak for itself, and a picture is worth a thousand words.

Imagine trying to S&F a thin pancake batter.

I guess I will try again with the 60% WW, just for another test. 

Jamie

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

That is a very thin pancake batter. Hope you haven't wasted it and have made pancakes.

Hydration can be altered for the flour used. My friend makes a lovely Do Nothing Bread using only white flour at 75% hydration. I imagine 85% hydration would be extremely liquid.

In the example recipe he goes for 90% hydration but 60% whole wheat.

And also, 15g is close to 2% starter and its warm where you are. Hydration was off, Starter percentage was off and it was warm.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

They do very long fermentations in the fridge for their breads. I have made them once or twice and they do taste just fine. 

JamieOF's picture
JamieOF

.....but part of my purpose is to keep away from the fridge. I'm trying to come up with a way to work 33 lbs of doough in a night in my home kitchen. 

Jamie

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

The difference between 6% pre-fermented flour and 24% pre-fermented flour is two doubling times at whatever temperature the dough is at. At 24% you might bulk ferment for 1:15 @ 83°F or 8 hrs @ 62°F (dough temp). With 6% you need two more doubling times (90 min to 120 min each so 3 to 4 hrs additional or 4:15 to 5:15 total time).  At a typical kitchen temperature of 70-75°F, if you want to run it for 12 hrs, you will need to arrange for an additional  3 or 4 doubling times which means reducing the inoculation down to 1.5 to 2%.  But remember that around 1% you have to give it an extra doubling time to begin exponential growth.  So it will take some experimentation (which you can do with small batches) to nail down the time/temperature combination that is workable for you.

You can also mix with cold water to slow things down.  That would be especially effective for your anticipated large batch size.

JamieOF's picture
JamieOF

..... to put that in simpler terms, given a room and dough temperature (let's say 70 deg F for argument sake), every time you halve the leaven percentage you have to double bulk time?

If that's correct, the rough schedule below should apply, starting off with my basic recipe (1:2:3 formula with a slight hydration variation):

16.6% prefermented flour is 4 hr bulk

8.3% will be 8 hours

4.15% will be 16 hours

(3% will be 24 hours????)

and ~ 2% will be 32 hours

My head hurts with the possibilities!!!!

Jamie 

 

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Every time you cut the pre-fermented flour in half, you have to add one doubling time to bulk fermentation.

For the sake of discussion use 2 hrs per doubling, so if you cut the pre-fermented flour from 6% to 3% you have to add 2 hours to BF.  If you go to 1.5%, then you add another 2 hrs.  If you take it down to 0.75%, it will take 2 hrs more (plus, because it is below 1% you have to add another 2 hrs, but only once, to account for how long it takes for the LAB to build a local environment in which they can begin doubling every two hours).

At 24%: lets say it takes 3 hrs @ 70°F

at 12% it will take ~ 5 hrs

at 6% it will take ~7 hrs

at 3% it will take ~9 hrs

at 1.5% it will take 11 hrs (or maybe 12 hrs but time is already very hard to predict accurately)

and you are now very sensitive to dough temperature because the 2 hrs can become 1.8 or 1.6 or 1.5 hrs (1.5 is about as fast as you can get under optimum conditions) which could make 11 hrs turn into 9 hrs (or 13 hrs if it gets cooler).

It is not actually complicated, but it is hard to predict accurately because of the high sensitivity to small changes in inoculation and temperature.

You can control inoculation size, time, temperature, and salt to get it to be ready when you want it to be ready.

JamieOF's picture
JamieOF

Thank you for the detailed explanation. Now I'll assume you've done this method several times so if you don't mind, here are a couple of more questions for you:

Is the early process the same, re: S&F every 20-30 mins, for the first couple of hours?

How is handling (Eg: pre- and shaping) compare to dough with a normal (3-4 hour) bulk ferment?

Jamie 

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Over the time from mix to divide/shape you have to do two things:

1. develop the gluten matrix

2. support and control the yeast and LAB population to produce the CO2 and acids that you want in the end product

The first is accomplished by both chemical and physical means

The second is primarily controlled by initial inoculation, time, and temperature

So you can do most of the mechanical mixing up front and then just manage the end point with some late manipulation, or you can let nature do its thing and add some stretch and folds along the way.  Some of this is determined by what you have in the way of mechanical mixing equipment. And some is how you want to manage your time.

I would suggest that you start by mixing two or three small batches that are slightly different and seeing which one works best, then use that as the basis for further splits.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

break down gluten bonds tat are formed in flour when it gets wet..  It is one of the 30 or so enzymes in flour that do all kinds of great and wonderful things.  A limited amount of protease action is wanted and necessary to provide the extensiblility in the dough that that allows the dough to rise and expand as opposed to being like a strong rubber band.  The priblem is that too much can destroy the entire gluten matrix.  In a normal yeast bread or SD  recipe this is never a concern because the recipe is crafted to make sure there isn't enough wet time for this to happen but enough wet wet time to allow some of this to happen.

The beauty of enzymes is that their actions, like yeast and LAB are slowed down considerably with low temperatures.  Every 18 degrees F less temperature, the enzyme action is cut in half.  So a cold room temp of 60 F, as opposed to 78 F will allow you to ferment and proof twice as long.  Cutting the pre-fermented flour in half will do the same thong for action for the yeast and LAB.

So a long ferment on the counter usually requires a temperature of around 60-4 F and cutting the pre-fermented flour to 6% or so.  You can accomplish the same thing by retarding in the fridge only you can take the process much longer since the temperature is 38 F and go for as much a 48 hours with a bulk ferment.

JamieOF's picture
JamieOF

You can accomplish the same thing by retarding in the fridge only you can take the process much longer since the temperature is 38 F

That is the thing I'm trying to get away from, cold ferment. If that's the case, I'm going to need a small fridge.

Jamie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

are temperature sensitive.  The warmer the environment the faster things happen.  Huge lumps of dough, 33 kg falls in that category easily, act much differently than a loaf in a bowl n the counter at room temperature. 

A huge lump of fermenting dough makes heat.  So if the air is 72 F the inside of the dough might be 78 F.  For you to get a huge lump of dough to sit out all night and not over ferment even at 70 F you might need to use ice water for the dough water and really get the lump very cold from the beginning 

Also remember that the wee beasties love the wet.  The more wet the dough the faster things will happen.  You are going to have to keep the room temp pretty low say 68 F, use ice water and keep the hydration in the 71% range to get a lump like that to be able to sit out on the counter for 12 hours fermenting away with no ill effects.  It will just take some experimenting and 33 kilos if dough is quite a bit to experiment with but there really isn't any other way to know what the dough will do.

JamieOF's picture
JamieOF

.... A 20 hour room temperature bulk ferment is next to impossible. 

For what it's worth, I do the dough in 3750 gm batches, 2 at a time each of 2 nights (the way I have to do it for lack of fridge space) it totals 33 lbs. 

Jamie. 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

flour, hydration and dough, water and room temperature.  You just have to play around with it.  I think it is possible and there are plenty of recipes out there that do it for even smaller blobs of dough