June 1, 2017 - 6:45am
Increasing sourness of sourdough
Sorry to dredge up a very old and hashed-out discussion but... I've read through many threads on how to increas the sourness of the dough and the amount of conflicting information is making my head spin. Some sources such as this https://brodandtaylor.com/make-sourdough-more-sour/ suggest that warmer fermentation/proofing temperatures and higher percentage of levain in the final dough make the final loaf more sour (something I agree with based on past bakes) while others suggest that lower temperatures and lower levain percentages slow down the whole rising process which leads to a longer fermentation time and thus a more sour loaf. Thoughts?
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I have found that a longer and warmer bulk ferment––really pushing it to the limit––produces a more sour loaf, whether the dough is retarded or not for the final proofing (though shortening the final proof by very careful shaping will limit sourness).
Additionally, I have found that using part whole wheat flour for the sourdough starter (or production levain) increases the sourness.
of lactic acid that LAB produce with no problem, thus their name. They like high hydration dough and high temperatures to really crank up the lactic acid production. The other sour is the 'tang' in sourdough and that is acetic acid. LAB also produce this acid but have to be coaxed into doing so with lower hydration and low temperatures for a very long time.
The famous Detmolder 3 stage levain process makes use of these ideas to get both of these sour components since many bread bakers think the best bread has both sour and tang tastes balance in their bread. A high temperature bulk ferment and low temperature retard in the fridge tries to do the same thing for the dough.
The other thing to remember is that starters have way mire LAB in them than yeast. A 10 to 1 ratio is the norm for a white flour starter maintained and stored on the counter. But there are starters that can have 100 to 1 ratios of LAB to yeast ratios in them. The more LAB in the mix, the more sour the bread. The bread has to be baked when it is properly fermented and proofed and it is the yeast that determines when the bread is properly proofed. There are three ways to increase LAB to yeast rations in a starter levain and dough. You can restrict the yeast reproduction rate, you can increase the LAB reproduction rate or you can do do some combination of both. With less yeast and more LAB in the mix it takes longer for yeast to proof the dough giving the more LAB in the mix more time to make acid and the bread more sour.
The other thing is that whole grains can also make bread more sour. Oddly, LAB are much more sensitive to low pH than yeast are and, as the mix becomes more acidic with LAB making acid, the LAB reproduction rate is restricted while the yeast can continue to reproduce. But, the bran in the whole grains acts as a buffer allowing the LAB to continue to reproduce at a lower pH than normal allowing a higher LAB to yeast ratio than normal.
Increasing the LAB to yeast ratio is the basis of the No Muss No Fuss whole grain rye starter I use. It is built at high temperature but retarded for weeks and weeks. Using retarded bran levain that is built at high temperature is also key. High temperature gluten development and short bulk ferment at high temperature followed by a retarded dough final proof before baking is also part if the more sour process. These things are the basis of Lucy's baking recipes that I use every week.
No Muss No Fuss StarterHappy sour bread making
Great explanation!
than I am to look at most always. and I like you too:-)
Woah. Thank you so much! I just built the first stage of the no muss no fuss starter. I live in a very warm climate (80-85F). Do you have a basic, low hydration recipe that employs those methods you talked about? I have been baking Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough and I'm wondering how to adapt it using these methods...
For posting the NMNFS link. I'm definitely going to use your method!
Well, I hate to be the "bad" guy on this but you can cheat... if you make a starter using regular package yeast, one packet, 1/2 cup flour, 1/4 cup water.... it will rise like crazy day 1. Day two: add 1 tsp lemon juice and 2 tbsp flour. Day 3; sour. follow directions for any other sourdough stater to keep alive but when you want to "sour" it up use lemon juice when you put in the new food...the flour you are using.
And boy...does THAT sour it up.
and winter comparatively. My kitchen is about 86-88 F, high temperature, in the summer. This weeks bake is pretty typical. I used 10 g of NMNF starter that had a higher LAB to yeast ration than a normal starter
I built a bran levain at high room temperatures and then retarded it for 24 hours. This allows LAB ti produce acid and reproduce quickly but also at higher acid environments and then gets them to produce acetic acid with the low temps. LAB always out reproduce yeast but at higher and low temperatures they really do so. At 72 F the LAB are out reproducing yeast at 6-7% but at 36 F it is 2 to 1 and tat 88 F it is 2 to 1. At low temperatures bit yeast and LAB are very slow so ti increases the LAB to yeast ration significantly you need to hold it there for a very long time weeks. But at 88 F things happen very fast and you can double the LAB to yeast ratio very quickly - in an hour.
Then at high room temperatures the higher LAB to yeast ratio of the levain is really out reproducing the yeast during the 3 hours of gluten development and bulk ferment. Then I retard the dough for 12 hours to get the LAB to make acetic acid to give the dough its tang remember the dough is low hydration which promotes tang and the levain is 100% hydration which promotes LAB reproduction. This is how you make bread mire sour and for whole grain breads, where the grain flavor is so powerful, more sour is a welcomes addition to balance the flavor of the breads.
If you know the science you can craft a SD bread, white or whole grain and anything in between to have just the right amount of sour. For rye breads where the crumb is nit dependent on gluten but controlling the amylase enzyme action of the dough, acid is what strengthens the crumb structure and reduces the action of amylase enzymes that can destroy the crumb structure. Acid is like a control rod in a nuclear reactor when it comes to rye bread, Rye breads also are very powerful flavor wise and need the extra sour to compensate.
I will be posting a bred today that uses all of these techniques to make one tasty bread in the end
I would love to try your recipes but I can't get sprouted flours here easily :( What I have in my pantry is bread flour, dark rye and whole wheat. I'm thinking of tweaking the so-far-reliable Vermont Sourdough with 15% rye formula:
416g bread flour
74g rye flour
11g salt
333g water
total weight: 834g
It usually calls for 196g of 125% hydration white levain. Do you think it would work if I swapped it for 81g of white levain built using your 3 stage formula? The temperature here is around 80-85F nowadays. I think I should try a bulk ferment at room temp, then a cold retard in the fridge after shaping for about 12 hours before baking immediately. Should I let it proof a bit at room temp after the cold retard?
to make the least sour white bread possible, Most people don't like sour bread so it is a very popular formula. To get a more sour bread make the levain a 3 stage one using the dark rye flour only at 100% hydration and then retard it for 24 hours before using. You can sift out the bran from the 74 g of dark rye flour getting about 10 g and use that as the first 4 hour feeding.
Depending on how much it proofs in the fridge will determine if it needs to be proof at room temperature before baking but if you use a 2 hour gluten development stage and no more than a half hour bulk ferment at room temperature before shaping and proofing in the fridge I would just take it out of the fridge when you preheat the oven and bake it when the oven is ready to go. It should work fine and give you a better tasting white SD bread that is more sour.
Getting sprouted grain isn't easy and if you can find it it is really expensive which is why I sprout and dry my own grains for bread.
I'm trying to extend the time that it bulk ferments at room temp though (that will increase the LAB right). Is the levain:final dough ratio of 81g:915g (about 8.8%) a good place to start?
year is about right, When it get hotter I will move it down to 6-7%.
The reason is to extend the retard time for the shaped dough. With a larger levain the dough over proofs in the fridge as I sleep.
Hi just to check the "2 hour gluten development stage"refers to the autolyse (30min) + kneading (10min) + 2 stretch and folds (at 50min intervals) + pre-shape and shaping (taking about 30min because of my inexperienced hands and resting time). Which is around 2h 50min in total spent at room temperature according to Hamelman's method. Am I correct to say this? How should I shorten the time frame just in case I see the signs of over-fermentation?
Also, would changing the levain's diet (first feed: rye, second and third feed: bread flour) during the build affect its strength? That's what I've read... Secondly would adding a smidgen of olive oil (about 2 tbsp) throw any wrench into the works? And thirdly, what's the ideal dough temperature during the gluten development stage/bulk ferment? Do you try to decrease the initial temperature with, say, chilled flour/water?
and the seeds were wet for 24 hours before drying and milling I do a 1 hour autolyse and 2 hours of gluten development which is usually half slap and folds and half stretch and folds at 20-30 minute intervals for 2 hours. Depending on how much ferment took place and how much the dough has risen during gluten development I will decide it I want to do a short, up to 1 hour, if it looks to be slow - usually in the winter when the kitchen is 64 F and the dough is slow to ferment.
...... an experiment I did supports this snippet from dabrownman's first post in this thread:
I did a 1500 gm batch @ 65% hydration, 22 hour ferment in the fridge, out for 2 hours, pre-and shape then directly into the fridge again for 24 and baked directly out of the fridge.
I enjoyed it but my dearest wife couldn't eat it because it was too sour, and the tang was significantly increased from what I normally do.
Jamie