The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Bread not soft once cools down and crust issues

giraffez's picture
giraffez

Bread not soft once cools down and crust issues

I have two problems, they are sort of the same issue so I've lumped it to the same post:

1. I've been trying to make soft buns with fillings. However, every time, the top of the bun turns out crusty and hard, not the soft texture I was expecting. The body is soft, just a hard layer of crust surrounding it. This is just a white bread flour bun.

I bake at 145 degrees celcius with the fan on. Initially i though my oven was too hot (I was doing it at 165 degrees celcius), but even at 145 degrees, its still hard.

I don't brush the top with anything before baking. Should I be?

2. Another problem I have with my dinner rolls is the crust is not hard, its leathery. Out of the oven, its soft but as soon as it cools down, the entire roll firms up. Until its warmed up again. How come dinner rolls I purchase don't do this. This happens with the loaf of bread I make from the bread machine, when it cools down, the insides firms up considerably. Its not edible without toasting first. This is wholemeal bread flour or a mix of white bread flour and wholemeal plain flour.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

try raising the temp to 200°C or 210°C  

With the fan try 175°C.  See if you can bake the first five minutes without the fan with a higher oven temp.  Are you using any steam in the oven?

Four more questions:  exactly what flours are being used?  In what part of the world are you baking?  The room temp when the loaf cools down?   The bread being toasted, how Is the bread stored?

giraffez's picture
giraffez

Hi

I've tried 170 degrees Celsius previously and the top of the crust was burnt and even harder.  Not using steam, should I be?  is it better to use fan or no fan?

 

thanks

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

in the oven during baking.  For starters, position the loaf so that the top of the finished loaf would be exactly in the middle of the oven.  The loaf should sit on the lowest or next to lowest shelf from the bottom of the oven.  Heat should be under the loaf predominantly.  Sometimes it may be necessary to cover the loaf to prevent burning in small ovens.

Have you got a recipe? 

giraffez's picture
giraffez

no, not that either.  The loaf is on the second rack of the oven, it's quite low.  I would say it's even below the middle.

funnily enough, my loaf of bread recipe that I bake  in the bread machine is the same firmness.

if I remember correctly,  it's,

340 ml of water

100 g honey

400g of wholemealbread flour

1.25 teaspoon of yeast

it taste delicious when toasted, just hardens when cooled

giraffez's picture
giraffez

Sorry when I say the loaf in the oven, I meant my dinner rolls/ buns

 

 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

can't be right.... ???   what is that... 25% honey?  That seems so high to me.   And this recipe makes for the buns too?The water amount is more for 500g flour so I'm guessing that the 100g is AP flour and the honey is much lower.  

drogon's picture
drogon

My standard sticky bun's are baked at 180°C for 12-14 minutes. That's a fairly standard flour, milk, egg, sugar, butter, salt + yeast mixture. I make 4 or 5 different types of 'bun' with this base. I make (& sell) a couple of dozen of these a week. Dinner rolls about the same - bit of milk in a standard flour/water/salt/yeast mix makes for a slightly softer crumb.

If you're really using that much honey in a loaf mix, then it'll burn as the honey will caramelise and blacken fairly quickly. My honey spelt loaves have 1.5% honey in them.

-Gordon

giraffez's picture
giraffez

Maybe I got the honey wrong, I have to check the recipe tonight. Yeah this one has little fat content, about 1 tablespoon of oil. It's baked in the bread machine.

The leathery buns recipe which I mix in the bread machine but bake in the oven is

1 1/4 cup water
Egg
140g honey
3 tablespoons oil
2 cup plain whole meal flour
2 cup white bread flour
1 tablespoon sugar
2 tablespoon cocoa powder
1 teaspoon salt
1 tablespoon milk powder
2 1/4 teaspoon yeast

Bake at 150 degrees Celsius fan forced oven. I've tried 170 degrees no fan oven as well, same result.

This I make all the time, it's delicious when hot but still hardens after it cools. It's a bit leathery. I found turning no the temp down makes it softer

giraffez's picture
giraffez

Sorry my loaf recipe was incorrect, should be 50g honey not 100g.  This is the loaf I bake in the bread machine.

 

 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Strong bread flour has a high gluten content. Try using an AP flour and most of the leatheriness will go away.

You need to describe the technique you use to assemble this dough. You already said you mix in a bread machine. Do you knead it? Stretch and fold? Use a sponge? Let it sit overnight? Rise to double? Rise once,twice or 3 times? Are you baking in a small oven or full size? Where are the burners in the oven? Are they shielded in any way?

Technique is as important as ingredients and probably what needs to be adjusted. Whole meal flour is thirsty but needs time to absorb water. A sponge or cold retarded fermentation (in the refrig ) usually works well when a dough has any wholemeal flour in it. If it hasn't been given the time to absorb water as a dough, it will rob the moisture from the crumb as it bakes and afterwards. The result is usually a lot of crumbliness or dryness. Or with a high gluten flour being used, it can result in leatheriness.

Bread is a mix of gluten strands (like a netting) in a starchy gel of the crumb(the skin of a balloon). The yeast gives off gas that fills the balloons which are held in place by the gel and the netting. Changing the number of gluten strands, the amount of starchy gel and the amount of gas is what produces the characteristics of any given loaf.  The balancing of these 3 things (netting,gel and gas bubbles)give a loaf its character and that can be changed in SO many ways.The way to change the character of the loaf is:

1. Change the ingredients (AP flour,wholemeal,spelt,rye,etc) or change the technique used to handle the ingredients. (mix in a bread machine, mix to windowpane, sponge, preferment, double hydrate,etc)

2. Add other ingredients so their unique effect can influence the dough.(oil,butter,sugar,salt,acidity),

3. Manipulate temperature in the dough during mixing, fermentation, proofing and baking

4. Mechanical effects of shaping

5. Change times/timing during assembly (sponge, preferment, retarding, bulk fermentation and proofing)

 So besides being a food with some of the simplest ingredients (flour,water, yeast,salt), it is also one of the most complex and understanding it teaches us many of the rules of science.

2 things that will really help us to help you are 1. a full recipe which includes a description of technique and 2. pictures (if you are able) as often a single pic of the crumb can diagnose many a problem.

Bake some delicious fun!

giraffez's picture
giraffez

Thank you for those suggestions, I will definitelt give it a go.

 

the full recipe for the buns are:

 

1 1/4 cup water
Egg
140g honey
3 tablespoons oil
2 cup plain whole meal flour
2 cup white bread flour
1 tablespoon brown sugar
2 tablespoon cocoa powder
1 teaspoon salt
1 tablespoon milk powder
2 1/4 teaspoon yeast

 

Put wet ingredients first then dry.  Yeast last. Using bread machine I put it on the whole meal dough setting which mixes for 3h15mins.  When it's done I leave it in the bread machine to rise for another 3-4 hours.

i take it out and knead for about another 2 mins.  At this point the dough is not super  sticky to work with. I dont need to dust it with flour.  One point to note here is when I try to stretch it out, it doesn't stretch very far before it tears.  Is this an indication that it's not kneaded enough?  Bearing in mind this is half wholemeal.  But the dough does spring up when I press with finger.

I then roll into circular bun shape and let it rise for another hour.

oven preheated at 150 degrees

Bake at 150 degrees Celsius fan forced oven. I've tried 170 degrees no fan oven as well, same result.

its a full oven, electric.  I put it on the second rack from the bottom. Bake for 25 mins

I'm not too fuss about the leathery aspect, I'm more want to fix the denseness of the buns when it cools.  The texture isn't fluffy and soft when you tear it in half.  

thank you 

 

Ill add  photo tomorrow, 

 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Better info to work from. My opinion remains that you should change to AP flour instead of bread flour. You will lose the chewiness. I would also possibly increase the water a bit. Your dough may be able to relax a bit with a higher hydration level.

When you use a bread machine, you are locked into the cycles of the machine and there are trade-offs for the convenience. The fact that it has a wholemeal cycle and mixes for 3 hours makes me hopeful that there is some time built in that allows the wholemeal to absorb the water. Normally, I would tell you to mix all the wholemeal and all the water and let sit for a few hours before mixing the other ingredients but I don't think the machine would like that sequence.

Try a few different things but definitely try regular all purpose flour instead of bread flour and see if you like the results.

giraffez's picture
giraffez

Thank you

at the moment the recipe calls for 2 cups white bread flour and 2 cups wholemeal plain flour.  Are you suggesting me to replace two cups of white bread flour with ap flour?  That would mean the recipe would have no bread flour at all as the wholemeal is just the plain stuff , not bread flour.

 

also the white bread flour I'm using is actually bread mix, this stuff:

http://www.laucke.com.au/Catalog/breadmixes/crusty-white-mix-24

I'm just assuming this is equivalent to bread flour.  May be the culprit.

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

which is primarily the lack of common terminology from country to country for baking!

When you see a recipe originating in North America calling for "All Purpose" flour, it is referring to what you would see in Australia as "Plain" flour --- a "white" flour made using only the endosperm of the wheat berry, and with a protein level usually in the 8-11% range.  A recipe calling for "Bread" flour is referring to what you would see in Australia as "Strong" flour or "Strong Bread flour" --- a "white" flour made using only the endosperm of a different variety of wheat berry, and with a protein level in the 11-15% range.  The higher protein level (gluten is a protein) means that there is more gluten available when making the bread, so the crumb will be stronger but more chewy.  For either of these, what you are purchasing should only include the wheat flour, maybe some vitamins / minerals, and perhaps a "dough enhancer" such as a malt or ascorbic acid, but definitely no yeast or baking soda or baking powder.  You do NOT want to be using what is called "self-rising" flour.

What you are using in your recipe is actually a bread MIX, which includes the flour but also includes the yeast.  It is formulated with a blend of wheat flour for crunchy crusts (which you do not want) and already includes the yeast (so you are, in effect, using double the amount of yeast, which is definitely going to have a negative impact on the quality of the bread). 

For your recipe to turn out with the softer crumb and crust that you desire, you should be ditching the mix and using the lower protein "plain" flour.

You might find these sites helpful to you:

https://theneverendingcookbookbymum.com/tag/bakers-flour/

https://donisbaked.wordpress.com/2012/02/14/key-ingredients-to-quality-pastry-at-home-flour/

https://www.thespruce.com/all-about-flour-995124

Hopefully these will help you have more success with your next bake!

giraffez's picture
giraffez

Thanks for clarifying that.

This bread mix doesn't contain yeast, apparently the mixture is made such that you only add water and yeast on top of the flour.  Even oil isn't required.  

Once i finish with the bread mix i brought recently, i will experiment using real bread flour and/or plain flour.  They did call it crusty white for a reason lol :)

Maybe what i will do is try 1 cup bread mix, 1 cup plain flour to start with and see the texture.  

Thank you for helping identify the issue.  Much appreciated.

Can i ask one more question, how do i know whether I've added the right amount of yeast.  During the summer, the same amount of yeast will rise the bread a lot.... i think its the heat.  Now that its winter, I find that the same amount of yeast has probably 50% less rise effect.  It could be the cooler weather or it could be that the yeast has died?  I recently brought a pack and stored it in an air tight jar in the pantry.  I was told by a baker there is no need to keep it in the fridge.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Please,  what about my other 3 questions?  (see first reply to the post at the top of the page)

giraffez's picture
giraffez

I'm so sorry i missed your questions:

1. exactly what flours are being used?  

Bread mix and wholemeal plain flour.... lol

2. In what part of the world are you baking?

Australia

3. The room temp when the loaf cools down?  

I think 20 -23 degrees celcius or so.  On warmer days can be 30 degrees celcius or so.  

4. The bread being toasted, how Is the bread stored?

I put it in a zip lock bag and throw it in the freezer.  But before it enters the freezer, the bread density is already heavier.  Once its toasted, it turns soft again.  Supermarket bread doesn't harden like mine does.

giraffez's picture
giraffez

Thank you everyone who has added to this post!  much appreciated.